2013 ATP Sudden Death League: ATP World Tour Finals

Discussion in 'Pro Match Results and Discussion' started by CDNguy87, Oct 28, 2013.

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Would you support creating the "Paris Contingency Rule" for 2014? (see details below)

Poll closed Nov 7, 2013.
  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    33.3%
  1. CDNguy87

    CDNguy87 Hall of Fame

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    Welcome to the final edition of the 2013 ATP Sudden Death League: World Tour Finals! This event is open to everyone.

    Note there will also be a separate "Bonus" competition open only to the Top 8 that is explained in the next post of this thread.

    Rules of the game:

    1. Every day of the tournament that day's matches will be posted. You pick one player who you think is going to win. It's a knock out-system: if the player you picked wins, you're through to the next round. If he loses, you're out.

    2. You have to pick one player per Round Robin day. (Edit: For Monday/Tuesday only, this requrement has been slightly loosened. See here for details: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7868056&postcount=21 ) In the semis and finals you pick one player per round.

    3. During the round robin portion of the event, you can only pick a player ONCE. However, during the semi-finals, you can choose any player you want, even if you chose him previously in the round robin portion of the event. Obviously it's important to make smart choices in order to get far. If you somehow have no players left to pick, you're out as well.

    4. You can't pick a player from a match that has started already.

    5a. If the player you picked retires during the match, you're out. If he retires before the match, you're allowed to change your pick.

    5b. If the opponent of the player you picked retires, it counts like a win. However, you can't pick a player whose opponent had already retired from the tournament.

    6. If you want to change you pick, make a new post quoting the old pick. Edited posts containing picks will not be taken into account.

    SCORE FOR THIS TOURNAMENT
    1 correct pick: 100
    2 correct picks: 200
    3 correct picks: 400
    4 correct picks: 600
    5 correct picks: 800
    6 correct picks: 1000
    7 correct picks: 1200
    Winner: 1500

    League File



    Details about the "Paris Contingency Rule":

    Inspired by the Paris debacle this week, I'm proposing a new rule that would take effect for next year if there's solid support.

    For future SDL events, if everybody gets knocked out in the first round/day/pick, it would be considered a wash and everybody will get a second chance to start over the next round/day.

    I emphasize this rule would only apply to the first pick of a tournament and only if everybody got knocked out. So it wouldn't have applied even for Paris because of romeo. But I feel this could be a useful "emergency" policy that would enhance the competition without really giving anybody an unfair advantage. Also note this would only apply for tournaments open to everybody, so it wouldn't affect something like the Top 8 Bonus Competition at the WTF (since that would give the Top 8 an unfair advantage over everyone else).

    I also emphasize how extremely unlikely this ever is to occur in practice. I've been playing this for 2 years and Paris was by far the closest it's ever come to occurring. But I wanted to put it to a vote since it would essentially be the only exception to the basic idea of SDL that "if you lose, you're out".
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
    #1
  2. CDNguy87

    CDNguy87 Hall of Fame

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    Congrats to the 2013 ATP Sudden Death League Top 8:


    [​IMG]

    League File

    1. dcdoorknob- CONFIRMED
    2. ********- CONFIRMED
    3. FEDERERNADAL13- CONFIRMED
    4. Ico
    5. CDNguy87- CONFIRMED
    6. Jeepers- CONFIRMED
    7. stringertom- CONFIRMED
    8. PDJ- CONFIRMED
    -----------------------------------
    9. Locotus- CONFIRMED
    10. TopDawg- CONFIRMED

    As part of the top 8, you will be competing in the Top 8 bonus pool where you can earn a maximum of 750 points added to your ranking points.

    For the other 7, please confirm your participation at your earliest convenience. Note that Locotus and TopDawg will be the first 2 alternates who might get to join if someone in the Top 8 doesn't make a pick.

    Rules of the game:

    1. This format is slightly different from the regular/open competition in that you only need to make one pick per RR round (only 3 total), not day.
    Note: RR1 will combine Monday/Tuesday's matches, RR2 will combine Wednesday's/Thursday's matches and RR3 will combine Friday's/Saturday's matches.

    2a. In the semis and finals, you pick one player per round.

    2b. Unlike the regular/open competition, your picks will not be re-set for the Semis and Final (i.e: you can not pick a player for the SF or Final who you already used in the Round Robin). Obviously it's important to make smart choices in the RR to get far. If you somehow have no players left to pick, you're out as well.

    3. Your picks for the bonus competition can be different or identical to your picks in the regular competition, according to your wishes.

    Also, similar to last year, the person that gains the most points in the bonus competition will receive a "Save" prize that can be used for any one event in the 2014 season. Everyone who makes all 5 correct picks will earn the prize. If nobody makes 5 correct picks, it will be limited to only one person. If multiple people end up tied in the bonus competition (while making less than 5 correct picks), the tie-breaker will be: 1) the person who earned more points in the regular/open WTF competition and, if still tied, 2) the person who earned more points during all of 2013 (i.e: whoever is higher-ranked).

    Scoring Points:

    1 correct pick: 150 points
    2 correct picks: 300 points
    3 correct picks: 450 points
    4 correct picks: 600 points
    5 correct picks: 750 points
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
    #2
  3. Seth

    Seth Hall of Fame

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    In like Flynn.
     
    #3
  4. stringertom

    stringertom G.O.A.T.

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    In for both @O2!
     
    #4
  5. Seth

    Seth Hall of Fame

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    I support the Paris Contingency Rule. This is my first year in the SDL, and I love it. It's a fun way to keep up with the pro tour while also incorporating the "fantasy tennis" aspect.

    In the event that we're all knocked out, it allows us to continue our game without, like you said, giving anyone an unfair advantage.
     
    #5
  6. RadicalSaboteur

    RadicalSaboteur New User

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    in, this new rule looks good.
     
    #6
  7. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    #7
  8. FEDERERNADAL13

    FEDERERNADAL13 Hall of Fame

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    In for both!
     
    #8
  9. Tennis sensation

    Tennis sensation Hall of Fame

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    First round exit in Valencia then a win in Basel followed by another first round exit in Paris.
     
    #9
  10. djokovicisananimal

    djokovicisananimal Professional

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    I'm in it to win it
     
    #10
  11. Jeepers

    Jeepers Professional

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    In for both!!!!
     
    #11
  12. fecaleagle

    fecaleagle Semi-Pro

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    I don't participate in SDL yet, but sudden death is sudden death, regardless of how many people die. I feel like the fact that everybody makes an incorrect pick shouldn't change the parameters of the game. In a tennis tournament, when you lose you're out. Why not create a contingency plan so that if everyone left fails in the quarter-finals, all those participants get another chance? I realize that this point is moot and that the rule will likely never go into effect, but I feel like it contradicts the spirit of SDL.

    See you in 2013, contingency rule or not!
     
    #12
  13. fecaleagle

    fecaleagle Semi-Pro

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    The goal is not to make an incorrect pick, and this has nothing to do with how the everybody else does. I imagine it's clear that I voted no on the Paris Contingency Rule.
     
    #13
  14. CDNguy87

    CDNguy87 Hall of Fame

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    Thank you for your input. I appreciate your concern about holding true to the game's purpose, which is why I wanted to get a vote on people's preferences before implementing it, even if the rule will rarely/almost never be used in practice.

    From a logical/fairness standpoint, it's pretty clear that either everyone needs to be given a second chance or nobody does. That's why the parameters I set (e.g: only for the first pick and only if every single person loses) are the only ones that could possibly be justified under this rule. Giving everyone left a second chance in the QFs or some later stage would be clearly unfair, as those people would get a second chance to earn points that was not given to people who were knocked out at an earlier stage.

    My main practical concern about the rule is that it may encourage people to just follow the crowd and make an identical pick for the 1st day, even to a greater extent than is already the case. For instance, if the rule was in effect for Paris, romeo might not have had the incentive to make the last-minute change he did, since by sticking with Paire he would have been guaranteed a second chance with everyone else also being knocked out. But all it would take is one newbie or contrarian making a unique pick to completely defeat the effectiveness of any collusion/crowd-following strategy.

    Another thing to remember is that even though an SDL tournament is not a direct competition, there still are "Rankings" and a "Race" to the Top 8 and YE #1 that clearly are linked to how everyone else does. Surviving mass exoduses (like romeo did this week) is obviously one of the most effective ways to gain more points relative to others, so there would still be a clear incentive for people to try finding ways to "beat the crowd".
     
    #14
  15. fecaleagle

    fecaleagle Semi-Pro

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    I agree that it would have no real practical implications except that everybody moves on to the next day, but I still feel that it doesn't "jive" well with the concept. Also, how is it fair for somebody to win a tournament, having made an incorrect pick (along with everybody else). Say I win a tournament not having made an incorrect pick, and then the next week, somebody wins a tournament the next week worth the same number of points having first made an incorrect pick (along with everybody else). Just because everybody was wrong on the first day doesn't mean that the eventual winner accomplished the same thing that I did the previous week. Even if it puts nobody at a disadvantage, it's clearly not the same accomplishment as not picking incorrectly in the first place. What I am saying is that whether I advance or not shouldn't be contingent on what everybody else does, even if it doesn't do anybody a disservice for us all to get a second chance.

    Just my two cents. As you've said, it really makes no practical difference. That said, if I'm going for the top 8 and I get bumped to 9th by someone who has more points than I do from a tournament in which everybody should have been eliminated, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't feel like the contingency rule was very fair.
     
    #15
  16. CDNguy87

    CDNguy87 Hall of Fame

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    The schedulemakers have thrown us a bit of a curveball. Due to the Paris final featuring 2 WTF participants, both Monday and Tuesday will feature one match from each group (rather than the usual of Monday being 2 matches from the same group and Tuesday being 2 matches from the other group).

    This complicates things somewhat for the regular SDL competition, where you'd normally pick one match per day. Now, for the RR portion, somebody could in theory end up having to pick 4 matches total from one group and only 2 matches total from the other group, which might end up being impossible (i.e: if one player in the group goes 0-3).

    I'm wondering if it might be better to have the first 2 days picked by group rather than day (e.g: you pick 1 player from the 2 Group A matches on Mon/Tues and 1 player from the 2 Group B matches on Mon/Tues). Or maybe even just make it so you can pick any 2 matches from Monday/Tuesday, even if that means picking 2 players on Monday and none on Tuesday (or vice-versa).
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
    #16
  17. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    Everyone gets knocked out...they deserve to lose. That the fun point of the league...to survive and rip your mind out when you make a hindsight biased pick.

    In for the Normal WTF.....will be here next year.
     
    #17
  18. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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  19. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    After thinking about it more, I've come to realize that it's not fair to put everyone back in the tournament if Paris were to happen all over again.

    I change my vote to No
     
    #19
  20. atptennis

    atptennis Rookie

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    Initially due to my kneejerk reaction, i voted yes.
    But now after reading all the above comments, I change my vote to NO
     
    #20
  21. CDNguy87

    CDNguy87 Hall of Fame

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    Notice for Monday and Tuesday (Day 1 and Day 2): Because the Paris final forced each group's first matches to be split up onto different days, I'm slightly loosening the requirements for Monday and Tuesday only.

    Instead of needing to make one pick on Monday and one pick on Tuesday, you will also be allowed to make 2 picks on Monday and none on Tuesday or vice-versa (e.g: 2 picks on Tuesday and none on Monday). Just as long as you make 2 picks total over Monday/Tuesday.

    This only applies for these first 2 days, as I'm assuming the schedule will be back to normal by Wednesday, in which case it would revert back to 1 pick/day. In order to maximize your chances of surviving the RR, you'd probably be well-advised to pick one match from each group, but this is not required.


    Days 1 and 2 OOP:

    Monday
    [5] T Berdych (CZE) vs. [7] S Wawrinka (SUI)
    [4] JM Del Potro (ARG) vs [8] R Gasquet (FRA)

    Tuesday
    [1] R Nadal (ESP) vs. [3] D Ferrer (ESP)
    [2] N Djokovic (SRB) vs. [6] R Federer (SUI)


    League File

    Reminder for the regular competition: you can only pick each player once in the Round Robin portion. However, during the semi-finals, you can choose any player you want, even if you chose him previously in the round robin portion of the event.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
    #21
  22. CDNguy87

    CDNguy87 Hall of Fame

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    Top 8 Bonus Competition

    The Top 8 bonus competition is unaffected by any of the above. You still need to pick only one match from the first RR round (e.g: Monday/Tuesday combined).


    RR1 OOP:

    [5] T Berdych (CZE) vs. [7] S Wawrinka (SUI)
    [4] JM Del Potro (ARG) vs [8] R Gasquet (FRA)
    [1] R Nadal (ESP) vs. [3] D Ferrer (ESP)
    [2] N Djokovic (SRB) vs. [6] R Federer (SUI)

    League File

    Reminder for the Top 8 bonus competition: you can only pick each player once for the entire tournament. Your picks will not be re-set at the SF stage.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
    #22
  23. CDNguy87

    CDNguy87 Hall of Fame

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    Day 1: Del Potro
     
    #23
  24. ark_28

    ark_28 Hall of Fame

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    Am in Day 1 Del Potro
     
    #24
  25. Rexking

    Rexking Professional

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    Day 1. Del Potro
     
    #25
  26. romeo8880

    romeo8880 Legend

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    Day 1: Juan Martin Del Potro
     
    #26
  27. Jeepers

    Jeepers Professional

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    RR1: Del po
     
    #27
  28. rainingaces

    rainingaces Legend

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    Day 1: Delpo
     
    #28
  29. Tennis sensation

    Tennis sensation Hall of Fame

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    #29
  30. Locotus

    Locotus Professional

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  31. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Monday: Del Potro
     
    #31
  32. Rock Strongo

    Rock Strongo Legend

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    Ooh I'm in! I have an absurd amount of points (given that my participation for the most part of this year has been limited, or was that last year I had a final??) to defend here!

    And the pickings are tough. I'll have Gasquet and Ferrer, because... Insanity!
     
    #32
  33. FEDERERNADAL13

    FEDERERNADAL13 Hall of Fame

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    Day 1: delpo!
     
    #33
  34. FEDERERNADAL13

    FEDERERNADAL13 Hall of Fame

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    Top 8 rr1: delpo
     
    #34
  35. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    #35
  36. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    #36
  37. PDJ

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    In for both pls.
     
    #37
  38. Boozyuzi

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    #38
  39. fecaleagle

    fecaleagle Semi-Pro

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    In for WTF SDL.
     
    #39
  40. fecaleagle

    fecaleagle Semi-Pro

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    Del Potro & Wawrinka
     
    #40
  41. bezs

    bezs Legend

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    Day 1: Del Po
    Day 2: Nadal
     
    #41
  42. librarysteg

    librarysteg Hall of Fame

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    Day 1: Gasquet. (I predict Delpo will somehow break both of his two remaining rackets, forcing an retirement.)
     
    #42
  43. FedError

    FedError Semi-Pro

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    #43
  44. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    Confirming my participation.
     
    #44
  45. CDNguy87

    CDNguy87 Hall of Fame

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    Looks like everyone in the Top 8 except Ico has confirmed.

    As the first 2 alternates, Locotus and TopDawg might want to make conditional Top 8 Bonus picks in case Ico doesn't make a pick by Tuesday's matches.
     
    #45
  46. CDNguy87

    CDNguy87 Hall of Fame

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    Make my Monday/Tuesday both Berdych and Del Potro.
     
    #46
  47. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Hall of Fame

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    I really don't like this splitting pick thing but whatever

    Pick 1: Delpo
    Pick 2: Rafa
     
    #47
  48. Seth

    Seth Hall of Fame

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    Day 1: Del Potro.
     
    #48
  49. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    BERDYCH an Delpo
     
    #49
  50. Wynter

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    I'll go Del Potro and Berdych
     
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