2013 League Restucturing

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by floridatennisdude, Jun 4, 2012.

  1. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Well, we concluded our local league play this weekend. In our area, we had 5 teams at my 4.5 level. We had a conversation on the sidelines afterwards about what next year will look like under the new guidelines
    http://www.florida.usta.com/usta_adult_senior_leagues/2013_league_restructure/

    I am a hair under 40 years old, so I will only be eligible for 18+. From the rosters that were exchanged in our last match (16 players total), here is the breakdown of how many players will be eligible for each league:

    65+ = 0
    55+ = 3
    40+ = 8
    18+ = 16

    So, three players will have 3 age groups to choose. Half will have two options and half only have 18+ as an option. Of the three players 55+ currently, all three currently play seniors and thus are playing two leagues. Two out of the three indicated that they will likely just play two leagues again and one ironman said he would probably play all three.

    Of the 8 in the 40 plus arena, 5 said they would play in one or the other and three said probably both. I asked the younger guys if they had ever captained and only one had previously.

    Therefore, for someone like me who is mid thirties, I see a couple dilemmas in next year's new formats

    1) inexperienced captains
    2) smaller leagues
    3) weaker play

    I predict that our current 5 team league will be reduced to three teams for the 18+ group. I know that one of the 5 teams for sure has only 3 current players under 40 years old. It will be interesting to see if those in the 40+ group form teams at their age level or play in the younger division. I would assume the current captains will hedge themselves to be stronger at one level or the other. If their best couple of players are under 40, they likely would play there. If not, they'll play only 40+.

    Anyone else foresee something similar in their area?
     
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  2. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    I posted something about this yesterday, it looks like our 40+ leagues will play this fall, with sectionals next fall, so those leagues will not conflict with the 18+ plus league, which takes place in the spring/summer. I think the USTA is all about maximizing play, the only problem here is that we have a fall city league (non USTA) which will probably be impacted.
     
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  3. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I haven't confirmed the dates of ours for 2013. From looking at the sectional dates, it looks like the 55 and 65 will start early, as the seniors have been doing (Jan-March). The 18 and 40s are then in a similar timeframe as adult runs now (Mar-June). I see these canabolizing each other to some degree. It looks like Florida foreshadows this too since they are scrapping regionals and everyone just is advancing to Florida sectionals. But, that might just be a cost saving scenario as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
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  4. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    It's not about maximizing "play", it's about maximizing the number of $20 registration fees that 40-something rec players, who are the most enthusiastic about USTA league and most likely to pay for multiple teams, put in their coffers. It's pretty transparent.
     
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  5. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Hahaha, for some reason I didn't read that marketing verbiage on the site. However, I don't doubt it one bit!
     
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  6. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    I don't disagree with you.
     
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  7. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    In my area (norcal) adult and 40+ will be at different times of the year, so I will be playing both. Looking forward to having another opportunity to play singles...
     
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  8. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    Orange -can you PM me? I"m in Norcal and would love to play 4.5 singles and just turned 40 myself. Just looking for a team/league to join where I can do so.
     
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  9. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Can a 40+ player reach 4.5 GOAThood?
     
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  10. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Joel,
    You are so vain!

    I'm 40+ and I'm praying for 1.0+ GOAThood.
     
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  11. Love50

    Love50 Rookie

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    NorCal is going to be interesting. League play is 1 singles, 2 doubles but the team has to have enough people to field 2 singles, 3 doubles at districts and beyond. And 4.5 is 4.5+ so you might actually face a 5.0 in singles :)
     
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  12. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Sure, you can email me at OrangePowerTennis at hotmail dot com.

    Currently playing Adult league in the east bay and nearing the end of the season. Adult 40+ is going to start Jan 2013 through March. I'm glad they scheduled it this way with Adult in summer and 40+ in winter so guys like us can get to do both!
     
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  13. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Seriously?!? That kinda sucks... not so much having to face a 5.0 (I don't mind a good beating now and then!), but only 1 singles 2 dubs for regular season doesn't make any sense if the team still needs to be large enough for 2 + 3 potentially. Does every player still need 2+ matches to qualify for playoffs? If that's the case, how are there going to be enough regular season matches to go around?

    Any links to where you found this info?

    EDIT: Found the link: http://www.norcal.usta.com/2013_league_restructure/

    That sucks big time and isn't going to work. I was looking forward to playing a decent number of singles matches on a 40+ team but now I can see that won't happen: The team needs 3-4 singles players in case of making it to districts etc. But then only 1 singles guy plays per week in the regular season. And if you can have a couple of 5.0 players on the team, chances are they will get dibs on the singles matches :-( Oh well, there goes that plan...
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
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  14. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    I'm a 4.5 and I'm looking forward to the 40+ league, since I think there will be less sandbagging. At this age, we all have careers, mortgages, and families. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if a guy played Division 1 tennis back in the 80's or early 90's. Unless they stayed in great shape and kept playing competitively, most of those type of guys are legitimate 4.5 players now. I know because we have several on my 18+ team that would have destroyed me back 20 years ago (when I played D2 tennis), but I can hang with them and win now that we're older.

    They have separated out the 18+ and 40+ seasons in my section also, and I will likely play both.
     
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  15. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    Wow, that's weird! Why would NorCal have the local league season format be 1 singles and 2 doubles, and then switch to 2 singles 3 doubles when it comes to the playoffs? Also, are those 5.0 players going to be allowed to play in playoffs at the local, sectional, and national level?

    (I don't think this is uniform across the country. In my Section, it's 4.5 only and the format is 2 singles, 3 doubles. I wonder how that's going to work at the national championships if teams from other sections are allowed to have 2 5.0 players on the roster?)
     
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  16. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    As soon as this restructuring became apparent, I started asking about what it might do to the overall calendar around here (VA District in MAS)...but so far...I've gotten nothing official. All I've heard is that 18+ and 40+ will run at separate times but I don't know when the heck they propose to do it.

    Winter Mixed (which uses all the indoor courts in our area) runs Jan-Mar(Jun*)
    Spring Adult (which maxes out most outdoor courts already) runs Apr-Jun(Jul*)
    Seniors & Combo run Jun-Aug (late Aug*)
    Fall Mixed Combo (technically also an "indoor" league but) runs Sept-Nov
    * Playoffs/Districts

    So...the only thing I've really heard or even had some folks-in-the-know speculate on...is that they'll try to run the 40+ when Seniors runs now. Yeah, right. Make the 40s and 50s play singles. In July. In Richmond. Are they nuts?

    I am in my 40s. I play still some singles. But I will not play 40+.

    I already have given up Mixed Combo (because I hate the format)...and, although I ran (and am running one last time) a Summer Combo....I won't next year because I just see an inherent conflict or cannibalization of it by the 40+/55+ and I'll be danged if we have to fight over courts at our facility. No, USTA. I'll keep those league fees and pay for some lessons. So I can continue to compete in the "Adult/18+" Division.
     
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  17. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    in 40+ 4.5 they are allowing 2 5.0's to play but they can not play together as a dpubles team and they must play in the #1 slot of either singles or doubles.

    18+ -- 5.0 leagues are allowing 2 5.5's to sign-up but only one 5.5 can play in any particular match.
     
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  18. Xisbum

    Xisbum Semi-Pro

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    Love all this talk about webs, weaving, and tangles. Only USTA can make any sense out of all this, and they ain't 'splainin' nuttin. :)
     
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  19. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    Wow, I am glad I am under 40 for the time being!
     
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  20. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    I should clarify that I think the 40+ league is a joke. I hope it gets ignored. I would hate for the 18+ league to get diluted if some of the 40+ crowd only has time or willingness for one league and chooses the 40+ league.
     
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  21. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I hope so too, but I get a feeling it will be the other way around.
     
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  22. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Funny thing. I would guess that at the 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0 level for women, the 18+ league will get ignored.

    On my various 3.5 and 4.0 adult teams, I have only had one player who was in her 20s. On my current roster of 19, no one is under 40, and ten women are over 50.

    Why on earth would we bother playing 18+? I don't get it.

    I know what you're thinking: "If the 18+ league plays at a different time than the 40+ league, why not do both?"

    Because, speaking as someone who has captained six ladies adult teams, I don't care for captaining in the adult season.

    It is just so crazy hard to find solid singles players. And without about five good singles players, you aren't going to do very well. Which means you have to hang onto your singles players like grim death -- even if they aren't very good at doubles for the remaining nine months out of the year.

    Now, USTA has decided to double the headache by dividing the adult league into 18+ and 40+. Which will mean some singles players will not be eligible for the 40+ league. Who is going to play singles in the 40+ league, then? Not me, I can promise you that.

    The adult rosters have to be bigger, the risk of default higher, the email volume higher . . . It is just so much easier to captain in a three-court doubles league.

    I wish the 40+ division were just five courts of doubles. Or maybe four doubles and one singles. Filling those two singles positions each week is going to be the death of me.
     
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  23. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    Is that all sections ? I haven't heard anything about that, but it wouldn't make sense if only a few sections allowed it.
     
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  24. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    The issue with that is that one of the motivations for the change that was explained to us at the captain's meeting at the beginning of the season was the there were 40+ singles players that didn't want to play college kids who would now have a league to play singles in.
     
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  25. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    That's funny because I live in a college town and there are very few college players that play USTA league. Seems that the USTA made a push for Tennis on Campus and those kids tend to play with other college kids. A stray few wind up in league, but not more than a dozen or so in a town of 50,000 college kids.
     
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  26. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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  27. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    It's not the kids giong to the colleges around here that play league, it's the kids that come home from college in mid-May that join up for the last 2/3 of the season. And it's not just kids that are still in college. A lot of the singles players in 4.5 are kids that are recent grads that played club tennis, especially at Penn State. I'm almost 41 and I don't care about playing kids, and I have not personally heard any of my 40+ friends complain about it, but that's what they told us anyway.
     
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  28. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    2.01A NTRP Levels of Play:
    - Changes 5.0 NTRP level to 5.0 Plus (+) NTRP level in Adult Division, 18 & Over
    League Type and changes 4.5 NTRP level to 4.5 Plus (+) NTRP level in Adult Division,
    40 & Over League Type.
    - Allows all Plus (+) NTRP level team rosters to include up to two players from the next
    higher NTRP level.
    - Requires Plus (+) players to always play in the #1 position, either #1S or #1D.
    - Allows only one Plus (+) player to compete in a team match when the Plus (+) NTRP
    level utilizes only three individual matches within a team match.
    - Allows two Plus (+) players to compete in a team match when the Plus (+) NTRP level
    utilizes four or more individual matches within a team match.
    -------------
    So when 2 singles & 3 doubles matches...you can play a higher rated player at #1 singles and #1 doubles. Max of two players at higher level.

    When 1 singles & 2 doubles matches...you can play a higher rated player at #1 singles or #1 doubles. Max of one player from the higher level.
     
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  29. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Sounds like you are on the opposite side of the equation from us. I can't think of any kids that do that here. The only college kid I have played the last few years grew up here and goes to UF.

    Makes sense though...family friend captains a team and picks up the young gun or something like that. I get it.
     
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  30. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    Interesting rule. My first reaction was that it didn't make sense. However, given that there will be no 40+ 5.0 category available, then I see what the USTA is doing. Besides, a 45 year old 5.0 player is a different challenge than a 25 year old 5.0. It depends on the playing style, but as a strong 4.5, I can normally compete evenly with an older 5.0 and sometimes win, but have problems winning games against a good young 5.0. Bottom line, if I captain a 40+ team next year, I think I can work with this arrangement.

    Given this, I hope that the rule is uniformly applied across the country. I looked all over my Section's website regarding the 40+ rules, and they didn't mention a thing about the "4.5+" format. However, on other Section websites, the 4.5+ rules were clear. I guess it's just another example of how inconsistent and disorganized the USTA can be sometimes.
     
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  31. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    Ok, thanks for the heads up, I haven't heard anything about this yet, personally not a big fan, but I realize that the older 5.0 players will be left out of the leagues.
     
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  32. Ipster

    Ipster New User

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    I agree pretty much with everything Cindy said. I am finishing my third year as the captain of an adult 3.0 women's team and I do not have a single woman under 40 on my roster. IF I decide to captain a team next year we will have a 40+ and not an adult team. I am lucky that I have 5-6 people on the roster that will stand up and play singles (including myself) and we will be happy not having to play women in their 20s and 30s.

    My husband is on a 4.0 adult team and his team has only one guy under 40. He says his adult league is comprised of mostly 40 and over players. We think here in our area that the 40+ teams will be more popular than the adult.
     
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  33. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    The dealbreaker for me is that local league for 40+ will be just 1 singles and 2 dubs. At least in norcal. That just does not provide enough playing opportunity.
     
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  34. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    Why have that rule, just makes no sense? I mean I contend that if the USTA would make 5.0 2 singles and 3 doubles more players would come and play, but that is to smart of an idea for the USTA to actually do.
     
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  35. ronray43

    ronray43 New User

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    Colorado is also restricting the 40+ league to three lines until the winners get to Districts: one singles and two doubles. Once you get to Districts, it goes back to the standard 5 lines. Rationale is there aren't enough courts to accomodate 5 lines for the 40+ league. The 18+ league will continue to play 5 lines all the time.

    For our area, the other way around would have been better (5 lines for 40+ and 3 lines for 18+) since most of the league players are over 40. Problem we'll have here is a lot of 40+ folks aren't happy with only 3 lines per week, so many of us will just stick to the 18+ league so we can have more matches. Will be interesting to see how much interest there is with the 40+ format since CO USTA is limiting play below the District level.
     
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  36. Love50

    Love50 Rookie

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    I believe the reason for the reduced format is lack of courts. Most of the facilities around here have trouble keeping up with the demand during peak hours (which is usually when matches are).
     
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  37. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, well.

    If someone is 40+ and has the same rating as someone half their age, the younger player is either sandbagging or is completely wild (and therefore beatable).

    What they need to do is raise the age limit for league to 22. That would close the loophole that lets these college kids come home for the summer and use their old pre-college computer rating to smoke people their parents' ages.
     
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  38. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    The USTA will never raise the age to 22. There is no option in that scenario for people to play that are 19-21 and not at a school where there is tennis on campus programs. The last thing the USTA wants to do is to tell people at that age that they have no options other than tournaments. Most kids at 19 are burnt on tournaments if they aren't playing college tennis.
     
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  39. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    Oh how (a!) little time and space make for a very different scenario.

    We played another team from our club today and, because of the rain and staggered reschedules, we all had plenty of time to chit-chat...and the new "restructure" came up. And my sense of the collective feeling was the opposite of yours.

    40+ will, in all likelihood, be ignored around here. Mostly because of the presumed time slot (mid-Summer) and, as you point out, trying to field two singles. Just ain't gonna happen.

    Like you, almost our entire team is over 40 and many are over 50 (but few over 55)...so on paper, it looks like we should be in that 40+ league. But I'll say it again, and until I'm blue in the face, no one will be able to field two lines of 40+ singles in July and August.

    If they do come up with a different time slot, some other Division will be completely cannibalized. Defeats the "purpose" of creating more playing opportunities, doesn't it?

    Finally,now, hearing that some (many?) areas/districts, seeing the writing on the wall of limited courts and/or players, are going to a 1S-2D format for locals...but then having to switch to 2S-3D for playoffs...what's up with that? What a joke it'll turn out to be.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
    #39
  40. goober

    goober Legend

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    Yah I won't even bother to field a team if they go 1S-2D for the regular season and then 5 courts for playoffs. Either make it a 3 court league or a 5 court league.

    Personally I would be happy if they made the 40+ league nonadvancing. Let the 18+ be for all the captains that want to engage in all the shannigans they want in their quest for nationals and let the adults that are just in for fun and excercise play seperately.
     
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  41. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    Is anybody in their 40s insulted that they have a separate age group for 40+? Jimmy Connors played professionally in his 40s, and Kimiko Date still plays professionally in their 40s. Sometimes the guys in their 40s are better athletes than the people in their 20s and 30s. A 50+ age bracket I can see. But many 40 year olds that I play are still in great physical condition, and have no reason to be segregated into their own age division.
     
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  42. goober

    goober Legend

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    Well they have had age group tournaments for 30s and 35s for many years. So whatever. Anyone who is insulted doesn't have to play in that division.

    It is all about increase league participation and bringing in more $$$.
     
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  43. atatu

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    I'm pretty sure if they did that the 40+ league would never take off, at least around here. It's great that you just want to have fun and get exercise, but do you really need a league to do that ?
     
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  44. goober

    goober Legend

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    You don't need a league for fun and exercise per se, but there are many reasons to have leagues and teams. Only a small number of teams are formed with sectionals/nationals in mind. The bottom half in any league already know they are not going. So what are they playing for?

    There are already leagues in the USTA which are nonadvancing and there are nonUSTA leagues that don't have nationals that do fine in participation.
     
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  45. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Not sure I buy that as a reason, since according to the new 2013 calendar 40+ will be in winter and the only other league in winter is Mixed 55+ (correct me if I'm wrong). And in general winter is not a high demand season in terms of court usage (at least not to the extent of spring and summer).

    +1

    I was getting excited about putting a team together but with this format I'm not going to bother.
     
    #45
  46. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    The 2-1 format is a horrible decision. It takes the existing (3 doubles lines) senior league, adds a large number of additional players (40-49), and removes one player from the line-up each week. That alone is stupid. Add in the need to have a roster large enough to support a 3-2 lineup in the post season and I can't see anyone being happy.
     
    #46
  47. Love50

    Love50 Rookie

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    Combo 2012 plays until Jan 20, 2013 plus playoffs in Feb. There is also overlap with 65 & Over. In any case, that's the reason a league coordinator gave me at the Mountain View Open recently.
     
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  48. OrangePower

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    Thanks for the info... I guess the usta has its reasons, but I think this is going to backfire - people like me that were looking forward to 40+ are going to be disappointed and will just pass.
     
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  49. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I don't necessarily feel insulted, but I do feel it's unnecessary for that reason.
     
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  50. atatu

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    I wouldn't play 40 plus if it were a 1/2 format either, that's really stupid, especially if sectionals will be 2/3. Luckily we are going to see a full 2/3 league here starting in the fall.
     
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