2013 NCAA Men's Division 1

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by TopDawg, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    4,885
    I was told by a coach the rankings lag a week behind. So what we are seeing if that's the case is a result of what happened 2 weeks ago.
    Even if so, probably still does not make sense.
     
  2. boomerTennis

    boomerTennis Rookie

    Joined:
    May 4, 2011
    Messages:
    174
    Lol, my question too :). Oklahoma lost 1 spot for going 2-0 against #16 Texas and #33 TCU. Texas lost 7 spots for losing to Oklahoma while beating Oklahoma State... Funny how it works!
     
  3. Kirijax

    Kirijax Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,854
    Why would it run two weeks behind? Are they using Commodore 64s or something? Would that screw up the conference tournaments and NCAA tournament seedings? Not sure how that all works but it sounds like the rankings system is as screwed up as college tennis scoreboards.

    Not that it's a surprise or anything. Sometimes I think college tennis is purposefully trying to destroy itself sometimes.
     
  4. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Why would UK drop for adding two more losses during the past week? That's absurd to expect

    They have nearly an infinite number of losses already, so what's two more...

    Also they beat Murray state to more than make up for things...

    Also they're in the SEC who sponsors these rankings this yr
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
  5. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    4,885
    I'm just telling you what I was told. Not saying it's correct or that there's not more to it. If it irritates you email the ITA and ask them for the ranking rules and requirements so you can see how it works.
     
  6. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Posted on website already
     
  7. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,440
    Location:
    San Antonio/Austin
    A two week delay is not a correct interpretation. He could be referring to the fact that what you see in the rankings today is not how each teams best wins were calculated. That was based on last weeks rankings.
     
  8. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Agreed that's probably where the coach got confused
     
  9. Kirijax

    Kirijax Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,854
    Not sure why you thought I was venting at you personally but I wasn't. Just responding.
     
  10. TopDawg

    TopDawg Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    9,469
    Location:
    Chesterfield, MO
    If Arkansas can find a way to beat LSU on Saturday to get that elusive 1st conference win to finish 1-11 that might be just enough to get them into the top 25. :)
     
  11. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    4,885
    I understand you were irritated with the college tennis rankings. Not me. My post was intended to be constructive in gathering more info on the system. My relaying what I heard from the coach was more than likely conveyed poorly by me. I have a couple teams I follow who I feel should be ranked higher. But they are not, some teams ahead of them should be higher, some teams ahead of them I don't see the logic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
  12. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    12,744
    Location:
    Carrboro, NC
    Naughty, naughty.

    26 maybe!
     
  13. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    my personal favorite is alabama continuing to move up (35 to 33 this week) - despite FIVE STRAIGHT LOSSES where they got no more than one point in any of those matches (i'm aware rankings don't consider match scores, just makes it that much funnier)

    by the time they record three more losses to bring the streak to eight (Tennessee, UGA, and likely losing first rd SEC tourney) they'll probably move past Duke

    seriously, these rankings have to be changed in offseason, penalties for losses need to be increased significantly - you shouldn't be rising in the rankings when you rarely ever win
     
  14. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    if the ATP tour used this ranking system vince spadea and donald young would be annual top-10 players, they can lose and lose and lose with the best of them
     
  15. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,440
    Location:
    San Antonio/Austin
    Lukas Rosol would be rising each week based off his one win over Nadal.
     
  16. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,440
    Location:
    San Antonio/Austin
    4-13 is good enough to be in the singles rankings, Vlad Stefan knows that.

    Mihov zooms into the singles rankings at 67 for beating Scholtz who was in a wheelchair.
     
  17. Court_Gamecocks

    Court_Gamecocks New User

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Messages:
    78
    The SEC is strong. I do not think that half of the nations top teams come from the SEC, I think the rankings have skewed a bit because of the data but that's no reason to disrespect it.

    One thing is for sure it will make a lot of teams from other regions of the country travel southeast come NCAA tournament time as there will be many host sites down here.
     
  18. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Messages:
    2,778
    USC Gomez just clinched a Davis cup match .. that's big..
     
  19. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,773
    Location:
    Charlottesville, VA
    The ITA rankings value good wins and do not put much weight (relatively) into losses. That is by design, to encourage teams to schedule good opponents. If you weight losses heavily, then teams have an incentive to make weak schedules. That system has existed in various NCAA sports over the years, and then we fans complain about teams trying to game the system by refusing to play anyone. Perhaps there is some middle ground, but it is hard for the ITA to find the right balance.

    Remember that the initial computer rankings are based on the final poll ratings. Everyone complains about the polls in tennis, also. You have to start somewhere, and the final polls are the only reasonable choice. So, perhaps the SEC was given too much credit in the polls. But then again, outside of the SEC, it seems that there are not a lot of really good teams other than the best five (UVa and Duke from ACC, USC and UCLA from PAC-12, Ohio State from Big 10). The handful of other good non-SEC teams (Baylor, Texas, Oklahoma, Pepperdine, Cal, Tulsa, Notre Dame .... I am running out of names here) are probably not any better than Texas A&M, Vanderbilt, et al. There is a drop-off after Duke and Cal and Texas in their conferences.
     
  20. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    8,876
    TW should do a weekly Forum Poll for college tennis rankings. It would be a fun diversion, and would obviously provide a lot of discussion. I've seen this done for other non-major college sports that have discussion forums, like lacrosse.

    I would't acually propose having anyone and everyone send in their list of Top 20 or 25 teams (as un-democractic as that sounds), but having set pollsters who provide a ballot of 20 or 25 teams every week, along with comments. I'm thinking the College Tennis Talk big guns: Clemson Tennis, Clark C, Kirijax, TopDawg, Mikej, Jaggy (I know there are a few more).

    Again, I realize how un-democratic this sounds, but having everyone offer 25 teams makes tabulating the results cumbersome, and then you have the problem of people who follow their own team or conference but don't have the sort of broad perspective of what's going on in college tennis that some of the aforementoned posters seem to have. Plus, us mere mortals can always offer up out own Top 25 in the comments section if we so choose, and, of course, can discuss/debate the results of the poll.

    Here's an example of how college lacrosse fans do it:

    http://network.laxpower.com/laxforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49377

    Just a suggestion. I'm not insisting that anyone has to do this. Could be fun though.
     
  21. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    12,744
    Location:
    Carrboro, NC
    Interesting thought bluetrain, I wonder if anyone would vote for I dont know, let's say.....Stanford?

    Seriously though, id join in if it was going on. It may even inspire me to look outside my own little college tennis box.
     
  22. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    I think Feddie should be included
    "1. Standford
    2. UVA
    Etc"

    I'd have to start following BIG10 and BIG12 way more to participate in an educated way - pretty much just stay up with ACC, SEC, and PAC12 - but sure I'll throw in a bi-weekly top 25 or something if it comes together

    Would be interesting to see how our various team and conference affiliations affected things
     
  23. Art Rust Jr

    Art Rust Jr Rookie

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    I appreciate your arguments against the ranking methods. However, put your Duke mongo hat aside for a moment, and consider how few upsets there have been over the years in the NCAA tennis tournament. As much as the tennis afficianodos on here complain about the rankings, they usually get them pretty good. There are rarely any upsets in the tournament, at least compared to other sports. I agree with you. The SEC is overrated. Not as much as you think they are, but they are overrated. We'll probably see one or two of them lose regionals that they host, but for the most part these rankings have been pretty accurate.
     
  24. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Of course tennis has less upsets than NCAA basketball for example
    1) much less depth from 1-64
    and just as importantly
    2) the structure of a team tennis match being made up of multiple individual matches - so for a team upset to occur multiple individual upsets have to occur together in a sense

    But do we really have the stats to say the seedings do a great job in the close matches like rd of 16 and quarters? I certainly don't have that info at hand

    What I can tell you is I put the prediction of a UGA upset in writing here last year when NCAA draw came out and pepperdine took care of business even in Athens - if UGA is a top four seed again I'll pick an upset again and undoubtedly be right
     
  25. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    By the way, not necessarily making the argument UGA was overseeded last year - but the "upset" happened just as an anecdote

    This year a top 4 seed would seem blatantly absurd to me after Ohio st beat them head to head and made semis of indoors - I hope I don't have to justify USC or UCLA being above them to anyone who is sane
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  26. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,376
    Location:
    AR
  27. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    I like that top 8 better at first glance

    But duke has four losses not 5, they double-counted indoors loss to UVA, sloppy
     
  28. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,440
    Location:
    San Antonio/Austin
    Blue train has a cool idea. Get everyone a little more involved and some nationwide discussion. I try to follow all of college tennis. It's hard when you only see certain select teams play.


    The 4 seeds in Regionals have no shot in tennis. Often they are the easiest match of the year for the top seeds. It would be a bit more competitive if they went straight top 64.
     
  29. Kirijax

    Kirijax Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,854
    Just as everyone has stated, there are not as much upsets in the NCAA tournament because by then the top has been pretty much settled. That's why the beginning of the season and the ITA Indoors is much more exciting for me in a way. We're still seeing who all came back, who is in form, and all of the newcomers and new lineups. By the time the conference tournaments roll around, the lineups seems pretty much set and we all have a pretty good idea what will happen.

    But there is something that is amazing to see when a big upset does happen, like last year's Big Ten tournament final. How those six to eight guys come together on that day to pull off upsets together is amazing to see. That's something you don't get to see in other sports. Upsets may be harder to come by, but when they do happen, it is a huge achievement.

    I think the poll idea is a great idea, although it would be hard to make an educated guess because we don't get to see all of the teams in action on a regular basis like we would in football or basketball. And I would be the first to admit that my Cane bias would show its pretty head somewhere along the way. (lol)
     
  30. TopDawg

    TopDawg Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    9,469
    Location:
    Chesterfield, MO
    Wednesday Action

    Both Mississippi State and Pepperdine should win but you never know.

    Miss St definitely a heavy favorite at 1, 4, and 6, a slight favorite at 2 and LSU favored at 3 with 5 being a push.

    If Rollin Nolan doesn't play for Stanford they have no shot against Pepperdine though with him they could take doubles and possibly 4 and 6 meaning they'd just have to pull an upset on 1 court. Of course they could lose 7-0 as well.

    #11 Missisippi State at #20 LSU – 4pm est/3pm cs cst – Livestats
    #7 Pepperdine at #41 Stanford – 4:30pm est/1:30pm pst – Livestats&Video
     
  31. Vicious Vik

    Vicious Vik Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    619
    I like the poll idea. But I must be a big gun in order for me to accept it .
     
  32. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    4,885
  33. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,653
    Pepperdine takes the doubles at 1 and 2. Stanford wins #3.
     
  34. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,440
    Location:
    San Antonio/Austin
    Having had a score update from BR in a while.
     
  35. TopDawg

    TopDawg Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    9,469
    Location:
    Chesterfield, MO
    LSU has always had an erratic live scoreboard. State won 4-1 winning at 3, 5, and 6. LSU won at 2.
     
  36. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    stanford giving themselves a chance - they really may be kicking themselves about that dubs pt when it's over - but maybe not...

    mousheg playing terrible per usual - i think i could beat him like 40% of the time :)
     
  37. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    brief 2-1 lead for stanford w/ wins at 5,6

    1,2 should go to pepperdine very soon

    then they just need one out of 3,4
     
  38. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    stineman hanging strong but ho looks like he'd rather be fishing and will probably be the downfall of the stanford upset bid

    he just lost second set 6-1, probably won less than 10 pts in the set if the few games of it i saw were a representative sample, and double faulted a couple times including letting racquet slip out of his hand and fly across court on a serve to get broken for the set
     
  39. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    down goes stineman, match over 4-2 on the way to 5-2

    stanford needs to get healthy and take down cal in a couple weeks, seems unlikely they're getting into the tourney otherwise
     
  40. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    12,744
    Location:
    Carrboro, NC
    And if we do a rankings thread everyone who enters gets to buy me a beer at the NCAA final weekend (which is quite drivable for me this year so I am going to make every effort to go). What an incentive for you!
     
  41. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,773
    Location:
    Charlottesville, VA
    Actually ended up 4-3 after a 7-5 comeback win in the third set at #4 singles, with Ho shocking Alcantara. So, the match came down to a 9-8 win at #1 doubles for Pepperdine, in retrospect.

    Maybe Alcantara was still jet-lagged from Davis Cup duties over in the Philippines this weekend.
     
  42. TopDawg

    TopDawg Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    9,469
    Location:
    Chesterfield, MO
    Friday Schedule

    #33 Alabama at #10 Tennessee – 2pm est – Livestats/Video/Blog - Tennessee 4-1
    Georgia Tech at #52 Virginia Tech – 2:30pm est – Livestats - Virginia Tech 6-1
    #25 Clemson at #1 Virginia – 3pm est – Livestats - Virginia 7-0
    #48 Michigan State at Iowa – 3pm est/2pm cst – Livestats - Michigan State 5-2
    #27 Florida State at #26 Wake Forest – 3pm est – Livestats - Wake 4-3
    #37 NC State at Boston College - 3pm est - NC State Twitter - NC State 7-0
    #53 Miami at #69 North Carolina – 3pm est – Livestats - UNC 5-2
    #5 Ohio State at #29 Illinois – 4pm est/3pm cst – Livestats - Buckeyes 4-3
    #56 Indiana at #40 Minnesota – 4pm est/3pm cst – Livestats - Minnesota 6-1
    #31 Washington at #2 UCLA – 4:30pm est/1:30pm pst – Livestats - UCLA 7-0
    #43 Oregon at #4 USC – 4:30pm est/1:30pm pst – Livestats - USC 7-0
    Arizona at #41 Stanford – 4:30pm est/1:30pm pst – Livestats/Video - Stanford 6-1
    #73 Utah at #16 Cal – 4:30pm est/1:30 pm pst – Video - Cal 6-1
    #38 San Diego at Loyola Marymount - 4:30pm est/1:30 pm pst – Livestats - San Diego 5-2
    #24 Michigan at #60 Nebraska – 5pm est/4pm cst – Livestats - Michigan 5-2
    #18 Auburn at #3 Georgia – 5pm est – Livestats/Video/Blog - Georgia 4-0
    #13 Vanderbilt at #22 South Carolina – 5pm est – Livestats/Video - South Carolina 4-0
    #8 Kentucky at #17 Florida – 5pm est – Livestats - Florida 4-3
    #12 Oklahoma at #15 Baylor – 7pm est/6pm cst – Livestats/Blog/Video - Baylor 6-1
    Oklahoma State at #44 Texas Tech – 2pm est/1pm cst – Livestats - Texas Tech 6-1
    #11 Mississippi State at #14 Texas A&M – 7pm est/6pm cst – Livestats/Video - aTm 4-0
    Penn State at #34 Northwestern – 7pm est/6pm cst – Livestats - Northwestern 5-2
    #58 Purdue at #75 Wisconsin - 7pm est/6pm cst - LiveBlog - Wisconsin 4-3
    St. Mary’s at #7 Pepperdine – 7pm est/4pm pst – Livestats - Waves 7-0
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
  43. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,440
    Location:
    San Antonio/Austin
    Oklahoma vs Baylor is going to be a very good one. Two talented teams that could be dangerous in May. I think Baylor is deeper and they seem to have a better team chemistry. No obvious weak spots.
     
  44. TopDawg

    TopDawg Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    9,469
    Location:
    Chesterfield, MO
    Yeah that Baylor/Oklahoma match will be interesting. I think every singles match is a toss up. Probably will be a pretty lively crowd at Baylor so that may be enough to push them over the top.
     
  45. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,440
    Location:
    San Antonio/Austin
    Good that they get an evening match. That will help. Stupid ACC, we always have to have Friday matches at like 2 or 3 when everyone is still at work or in class.
     
  46. Kirijax

    Kirijax Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,854
    Wouldn't that be nice? I wouldn't have to get up at 3 or 4 am to watch a slow-moving scoreboard!
     
  47. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,440
    Location:
    San Antonio/Austin
    Do you live in Japan?
     
  48. Kirijax

    Kirijax Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,854
    Yeah! Since '91.
     
  49. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    should be an absolute war - both teams with 5 days rest after fairly easy wins - should be well rested with this date circled on the calendar

    i'm taking OU in the end - i don't really trust their depth either but i think doubles and top of the lineup will perform tomorrow
     
  50. boomerTennis

    boomerTennis Rookie

    Joined:
    May 4, 2011
    Messages:
    174
    I think so too. Double would be key for us, since Costin at 1, Alcorta at 2, and Webb at 3 are playing very well for us right now. Bottom 3 have been on and off, but when the top 3 are needed, they have been delivering so far.
     

Share This Page