2023 US Open R16 - Jannik Sinner [6] (ITA) v/s Alexander 'Sascha' Zverev [12] (GER)

[optic yellow]

Fine. There’s no need to be rude.
Whatever

not rude, just light joke that it was boring they had one

 

[Rattie]

not rude, just light joke that it was boring they had one

Apologies, I take it back. I misread you

 

[robyrolfo]

67 UEs against the Zedrot - that´s actually plain bad. Prime Fedal probably hit that many UEs during an entire tournament but never in a single match...

So what did I say yesterday about that error count and the length of the match (under hard conditions)? 67 is a big number, but it was a long 5 set match... And guess what happened last night?

Alcaraz hit 34 UE's out of a total of 174 points played, which comes out to .195, while Sinner's 67 out of 322 points comes out to .208, which isn't that far off, especially considering how much more tired players are in sets 4 and 5. And if you watched Alcaraz v Zverev last night, especially the first set when Zverev was relatively "fresh," he was playing Alcaraz tight, just like he did Sinner.

Point it, Zverev was playing really well in this Open, and Alcaraz was lucky to have played him after that exhausting match in the previous round.

We are both fans of Sinner but yes he needs better conditioning. I think something is missing why he’s been unable to to take that next step

I agree he needs work in that area, especially in conditions like these. He needs to do a training block in Florida (or someplace similar) next year. Look at where he comes from! During the Shelton match, I was talking to my wife about how Shelton having spend the past few years in Florida helped him deal with the humidity, as it has helped others that spent significant time in climates like that. Alcaraz's part of Spain isn't quite as humid, but it's crazy hot there. I mean, Sinner is from the Dolomites, ffs, which couldn't be more different to a place like Florida or Murcia.

This is almost a parody post listing as many ridiculous excuses as you possibly can. Close only counts in hand grenades and darts.

How does it make any fan feel better if their guy was "super close" to beating someone? Rune was super close to beating Rublev at the AO this year (held MP's) and the MC final (he was a point away from being 5-2 in the third). Who cares? Rune lost both matches, end of story. The excuse machine with Sinner is off the charts. He lost last year to Alcaraz at the USO and lost to Zverev this year and the conditions are the same for both players, not just Chickenlegz. I'm surprised Sinner fans don't just arbitrarily announce him as the winner on Sunday even when Djokovic or Carlos lift the trophy.

Dude (or Dudette), I get that you are still crying yourself to sleep every night at the thought of how awful Rune has been lately, but try to at least make a sensible post.

Of course losing a close match is still a loss. Nobody is celebrating it like a win, or counting it as a win. But what people CAN do is look at the performance as a way of evaluating someone's level/game. Playing the "great" Alcaraz to a close 5 sets last year at the US Open means that the kid can play some incredibly high level tennis. Taking Djokovic to 5 at Wimbledon last year is a similar feat (and imagine if Djoko choked like he did against Alcaraz this year?). So no, they aren't wins, but they are signs of his potential.

 

[Aabye5]

So what did I say yesterday about that error count and the length of the match (under hard conditions)? 67 is a big number, but it was a long 5 set match... And guess what happened last night?

Alcaraz hit 34 UE's out of a total of 174 points played, which comes out to .195, while Sinner's 67 out of 322 points comes out to .208, which isn't that far off, especially considering how much more tired players are in sets 4 and 5. And if you watched Alcaraz v Zverev last night, especially the first set when Zverev was relatively "fresh," he was playing Alcaraz tight, just like he did Sinner.

Point it, Zverev was playing really well in this Open, and Alcaraz was lucky to have played him after that exhausting match in the previous round.

I agree he needs work in that area, especially in conditions like these. He needs to do a training block in Florida (or someplace similar) next year. Look at where he comes from! During the Shelton match, I was talking to my wife about how Shelton having spend the past few years in Florida helped him deal with the humidity, as it has helped others that spent significant time in climates like that. Alcaraz's part of Spain isn't quite as humid, but it's crazy hot there. I mean, Sinner is from the Dolomites, ffs, which couldn't be more different to a place like Florida or Murcia.

Dude (or Dudette), I get that you are still crying yourself to sleep every night at the thought of how awful Rune has been lately, but try to at least make a sensible post.

Of course losing a close match is still a loss. Nobody is celebrating it like a win, or counting it as a win. But what people CAN do is look at the performance as a way of evaluating someone's level/game. Playing the "great" Alcaraz to a close 5 sets last year at the US Open means that the kid can play some incredibly high level tennis. Taking Djokovic to 5 at Wimbledon last year is a similar feat (and imagine if Djoko choked like he did against Alcaraz this year?). So no, they aren't wins, but they are signs of his potential.

The answer -- Dubai. I know of someone else from the Alps who never spent a lot of time complaining about the heat. Unless it was coming off of Novak's or Rafa's racquets.

 

[FeroBango]

Sinner wasn't winning the USO last year even if he'd beaten Raz. I mean look at Miami this year. I wouldn't trust him to get the real job done.

And ahaha Djokovic wasn't going to choke against Sinner either because he was quite clearly secure in knowing that the result of that match was entirely in his hands.

 

[BeatlesFan]

The answer -- Dubai. I know of someone else from the Alps who never spent a lot of time complaining about the heat. Unless it was coming off of Novak's or Rafa's racquets.

Basel is not in the Alps.

 

[robyrolfo]

Sinner wasn't winning the USO last year even if he'd beaten Raz. I mean look at Miami this year. I wouldn't trust him to get the real job done.

And ahaha Djokovic wasn't going to choke against Sinner either because he was quite clearly secure in knowing that the result of that match was entirely in his hands.

You don't think Sinner could have beaten Tiafoe and Ruud? Did you even watch their matches against Alcaraz?

And not sure what you are trying to say about Djokovic, because he most certainly choked in the Wimbledon final, and more than once.

 

[FeroBango]

You don't think Sinner could have beaten Tiafoe and Ruud? Did you even watch their matches against Alcaraz?

And not sure what you are trying to say about Djokovic, because he most certainly choked in the Wimbledon final, and more than once.

He "choked" against Alcaraz, sure. But he was never in danger of "choking" against Sinner. He never feared a loss. The nerves never played a role. He was certain about victory even when trailing 2 sets to love.

Yes I am not sold on Sinner beating those he's supposed to beat to win big matches unless the opposition is ranked 70 or below. His 500 win against Mackie and co, 1000 win against an optional 250 field, his Wimbledon SF run against a qualifier field are testament to this. But even they can do an Altmaier on him. So.

He's improving though, at his own pace. I expect/hope to see him get better without the scars getting to him.

 

[robyrolfo]

He "choked" against Alcaraz, sure. But he was never in danger of "choking" against Sinner. He never feared a loss. The nerves never played a role. He was certain about victory even when trailing 2 sets to love.

Yes I am not sold on Sinner beating those he's supposed to beat to win big matches unless the opposition is ranked 70 or below. His 500 win against Mackie and co, 1000 win against an optional 250 field, his Wimbledon SF run against a qualifier field are testament to this. But even they can do an Altmaier on him. So.

Well, thank god you are here to tell us exactly what goes on in Djokovic's head. That's a pretty nifty trick. So tell us, why did he stop strapping that little battery to his chest?

And you aren't sold on Sinner doing the exact thing he has been doing lately? He gets a friendly draw in a Masters 1000, and he walks it without breaking a sweat. What do you want him to do, drop random sets and act like he is injured in the process? That's Novak's move.

But yes, let's keep going on and on about that Altmaier loss forever, right? The mighty Alcaraz and Djokovic have never been upset at a tournament...

 

[FeroBango]

Well, thank god you are here to tell us exactly what goes on in Djokovic's head. That's a pretty nifty trick. So tell us, why did he stop strapping that little battery to his chest?

And you aren't sold on Sinner doing the exact thing he has been doing lately? He gets a friendly draw in a Masters 1000, and he walks it without breaking a sweat. What do you want him to do, drop random sets and act like he is injured in the process? That's Novak's move.

But yes, let's keep going on and on about that Altmaier loss forever, right? The mighty Alcaraz and Djokovic have never been upset at a tournament...

You're correct. Sinner is an equal to Alcaraz and definitely to Djokovic. He trembled in fear against Sinner much the same way he did against Musetti, that one match. It was palpable.

In all seriousness, I'm not sold on his ability to clutch it out unless it is an unusually favourable draw that he faces. But he's only 22, has a 70% win rate and is only going to improve ... Or regress like Tsitsipas. I hope that isn't the case. His ball-striking is a lovely sight but these mental scars may be just too much.

 

[robyrolfo]

You're correct. Sinner is an equal to Alcaraz and definitely to Djokovic. He trembled in fear against Sinner much the same way he did against Musetti, that one match. It was palpable.

In all seriousness, I'm not sold on his ability to clutch it out unless it is an unusually favourable draw that he faces. But he's only 22, has a 70% win rate and is only going to improve ... Or regress like Tsitsipas. I hope that isn't the case. His ball-striking is a lovely sight but these mental scars may be just too much.

Look, I don't know why Djokovic made some bad and uncharacteristic unforced errors during the first set tiebreak with Alcaraz at Wimbledon. Was it fear? Perhaps. But he had just beaten Alcaraz pretty bad in the French final, and it was still early.

Anyway, I agree that Sinner still has time to improve... or regress. Anything is possible. I keep hearing about how Federer was losing all his tight matches early in his career, but I wasn't watching live at the time to witness it. It also seems, though, that he has a game that is often at that next level which allows the top players to "cruise" past lesser opponents. Something that Tsitsipas doesn't always have: he usually has to work hard for it. I think that makes a big difference in the long run in terms of progressing.

 

[optic yellow]

Look, I don't know why Djokovic made some bad and uncharacteristic unforced errors during the first set tiebreak with Alcaraz at Wimbledon. Was it fear? Perhaps. But he had just beaten Alcaraz pretty bad in the French final, and it was still early.

Anyway, I agree that Sinner still has time to improve... or regress. Anything is possible. I keep hearing about how Federer was losing all his tight matches early in his career, but I wasn't watching live at the time to witness it. It also seems, though, that he has a game that is often at that next level which allows the top players to "cruise" past lesser opponents. Something that Tsitsipas doesn't always have: he usually has to work hard for it. I think that makes a big difference in the long run in terms of progressing.

It was because he did not have the psychological comfort of knowing Alcaraz would crumble mentally before him.

 

[robyrolfo]

It was because he did not have the psychological comfort of knowing Alcaraz would crumble mentally before him.

So you think he just spotted one of the best young players on tour a two sets lead, on grass against an incredibly hard hitter? You think he was just fine with that?

Look, I don't know how or why Djokovic operates the way he does. I don't know why he seemingly gifts opponents two set leads in majors, and/or why that seems to be what he needs to focus sometimes. Djokovic is honestly completely strange and mysterious to me. I watch a lot of sport, and I can't think of another top athlete that operates and behaves the way that he does.

 

[optic yellow]

So you think he just spotted one of the best young players on tour a two sets lead, on grass against an incredibly hard hitter? You think he was just fine with that?

Look, I don't know how or why Djokovic operates the way he does. I don't know why he seemingly gifts opponents two set leads in majors, and/or why that seems to be what he needs to focus sometimes. Djokovic is honestly completely strange and mysterious to me. I watch a lot of sport, and I can't think of another top athlete that operates and behaves the way that he does.

I just watched the ESPN 30 for 30 on Jimmy Connors and definitely was seeing some overlap in that department. It is the same outsider against the establishment complex I feel. Serbia is decidedly not Western Europe and Western Europe is the country club set of Europe.

 

[robyrolfo]

I just watched the ESPN 30 for 30 on Jimmy Connors and definitely was seeing some overlap in that department. It is the same outsider against the establishment complex I feel.

In what way? Serious question. Needing to have your back against the wall and feel some pressure in order to perform at your best isn't all that strange. It can and has happened with others.

But what about the other stuff? Was Connors often acting like he was badly injured, only to play completely fine immediately thereafter? Did Connors often flop around and wave his arms as if he was completely drunk and disoriented at the end of a point? Did Connors have random screaming fits during or after matches? Did Conners ever believe that strapping a watch battery to his chest would give him extra energy?

 

[optic yellow]

In what way? Serious question. Needing to have your back against the wall and feel some pressure in order to perform at your best isn't all that strange. It can and has happened with others.

But what about the other stuff? Was Connors often acting like he was badly injured, only to play completely fine immediately thereafter? Did Connors often flop around and wave his arms as if he was completely drunk and disoriented at the end of a point? Did Connors have random screaming fits during or after matches? Did Conners ever believe that strapping a watch battery to his chest would give him extra energy?

I just watched the ESPN 30 for 30 on Jimmy Connors and definitely was seeing some overlap in that department. It is the same outsider against the establishment complex I feel. Serbia is decidedly not Western Europe and Western Europe is the country club set of Europe.

 

[Aabye5]

You don't think Sinner could have beaten Tiafoe and Ruud? Did you even watch their matches against Alcaraz?

And not sure what you are trying to say about Djokovic, because he most certainly choked in the Wimbledon final, and more than once.

For sure, Tiafoe would have been close, but he has never lost a set to Ruud.

 

[dking68]

For sure, Tiafoe would have been close, but he has never lost a set to Ruud.

I feel bad for Jannik given the torrid conditions. Maybe it was a different story if the conditions weren’t so hot

 

[Aabye5]

I feel bad for Jannik given the torrid conditions. Maybe it was a different story if the conditions weren’t so hot

I don't feel bad for him. After all, they were the same for both players. But he is very persistent and very clever, so I am curious if he will do something fairly radical to prepare for the next season. Maybe a training block in Cahill's old stomping grounds?

 

[dking68]

I don't feel bad for him. After all, they were the same for both players. But he is very persistent and very clever, so I am curious if he will do something fairly radical to prepare for the next season. Maybe a training block in Cahill's old stomping grounds?

I think after the fourth round losses to Tsitsipas and Zverev - Sinner probably realizes by now why he lost those matches

 

[Giant Squid]

Gotta look good for the girls. The gold chains are only a part of the dazzle. Think about the height, the multimillions in the bank...basically, lock your girls away when Z is in town!

He lost a bet with his girlfriend. It was a monopoly game. If he lost he couldn’t cut his hair for a year. She’s the woman with the tattoos in his box. She’s a German presenter/actress. She is also a partner in construction supply store.

 

[Giant Squid]

I mean the closest to both being at their best was the RG match. Both times Carlos beat him, Zverev was also nowhere close to his best. The Madrid match last year particularly Zverev played a long night match the previous day and was pretty hopeless for the final.

It wasn’t just that he played late the night before into the morning of* the final. It’s that he played past midnight the last 3 matches of Madrid 22. This year, Zverev was still finding form. I don’t think his fully recovered his form but he is getting better.

 

[robyrolfo]

...It is the same outsider against the establishment complex I feel. Serbia is decidedly not Western Europe and Western Europe is the country club set of Europe.

Even by the standards of most generalizations, those statements are way too generalized. Western Europe the "country club set of Europe"? Maybe you haven't been to some parts of Western Europe. Just because the culture is different to Eastern European culture, doesn't mean they are all snobs...

And there is a big difference between an "anti-establishment" American, and the lengths to which Djokovic has gone at times.

I don't feel bad for him. After all, they were the same for both players. But he is very persistent and very clever, so I am curious if he will do something fairly radical to prepare for the next season. Maybe a training block in Cahill's old stomping grounds?

Well they were talking a lot about how he changed from the platform service stance to pinpoint, a few months ago. Cahill said that was something they wanted him to do, and he was very receptive, and it's just one of several things they have in mind, but which they don't want to introduce all at once. So it will be incremental changes over time.

 

[Aabye5]

....
Well they were talking a lot about how he changed from the platform service stance to pinpoint, a few months ago. Cahill said that was something they wanted him to do, and he was very receptive, and it's just one of several things they have in mind, but which they don't want to introduce all at once. So it will be incremental changes over time.

Yes, I have seen Sinner's adjustments on serve, but I was talking specifically about his fitness. I wonder how he would fare training in Australia.

 

[robyrolfo]

Yes, I have seen Sinner's adjustments on serve, but I was talking specifically about his fitness. I wonder how he would fare training in Australia.

How's the humidity in Australia? I was thinking he should train in Florida, where it is both hot and humid. At least before the US swing next year.

 

[dking68]

How's the humidity in Australia? I was thinking he should train in Florida, where it is both hot and humid. At least before the US swing next year.

Thats smart. I’m sure Cahill is an experienced enough coach to figure out what Sinner is lacking to reach the very top

 

[optic yellow]

Even by the standards of most generalizations, those statements are way too generalized. Western Europe the "country club set of Europe"? Maybe you haven't been to some parts of Western Europe. Just because the culture is different to Eastern European culture, doesn't mean they are all snobs...

Broad strokes are exactly how we're supposed to be thinking here.