2HBH: should the racket stay on the "outside" too?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by dominikk1985, Dec 20, 2013.

  1. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    With the "ATP" FH the racket and arm will stay "outside" i.e. on the chest side of the fence and the racket outside of the hand at the end of the backswing before the arm starts forward.

    how about the 2HBH? should the racket stay pointed to the outside too at the end of the backswing or being wrapped around the body?
     
    #1
  2. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    I would recommend keeping it on the outside of your body. It would actually be pretty tough to wrap it around much because your right hand would prevent that from happening. Still, you want to keep the loop from coming around behind you.
     
    #2
  3. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    #3
  4. Tight Lines

    Tight Lines Semi-Pro

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    Actually, that is grip dependent.

    If you have a semi western top hand, the swingline should be more inside out than outside in. In that case, you want the racket to go around to the other side.

    Harry
     
    #4
  5. Maximagq

    Maximagq Banned

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    What grip does Djokovic use on his top hand? Eastern forehand or semi-western?
     
    #5
  6. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Macci video is good and here's tennis oxygen pro 2hbh comparison that i like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PvSJP7CRZM

    I think when you say "outside .. chest side", you mean do the hands stay in front of the chest even thought the chest is to the side. I think keeping the hands in front of the chest/shoulder line (of course shoulders are facing side fence) if the preferred method. It keeps the stroke compact and still gives plenty of power and control.

    As you start the forward swing, the wrist/forearms drop into the slot or hitting position. You will see the racket head drop a behind the hands a bit at this point. This was the flipping motion Macci demostrated. Some pros put the wrist in this laid back position at the prep phase which is OK too and some pros keep the wrist neutral in the prep phase. If laid back wrist in prep, the drop/flip into the slot is reduced while neutral at prep have a bigger drop/flip into the slot. Personally, I prefer a bit of lay back in my wrist in the prep phase but you'll see both.

    Djoko lays the wrist back very early in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed3S-X1Xiv4. His racket head actually goes back behind the shoulder plane a bit due to the wrist lay back but his hands are still at or in front of the shoulder line.
     
    #6
  7. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

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    You... traitor to the cause of the glorious one-handed backhand master race! :evil:

    This is what Google says when typing "Djokovic Backhand Grip".
    http://www.essentialtennisinstruction.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/djokobackhand.png
    http://www.optimumtennis.net/images/novak-djokovic-backswing.jpg
    http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/01/25/1226253/866269-120125-novak-djokovic.jpg
    Looks like SW.
     
    #7
  8. stingyoyo

    stingyoyo New User

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    I dont know Mr macci's but what he is teaching is wrong!!! Try and keep your elbows close to the body because at contact you want to have your body behind the shot and like he is showing that the racket and arms are far away to the side. Back to the first question , it is not like the forhand of the mens on the atp. You should let the racket drop a little behind your back leg and then get into the hiting slot. That is the way all top backhands are hit atp wta. I usually dont coment here but thats a big big mistake. and as you see my english is not perfect but as a tennis pro i work with many top juniors and pros and got to work with many other top coaches in my carear. So get it right and good luck
     
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  9. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Another related thread

    Greetings,
    you are welcome to visit another thread about double handed backhand
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=485248
    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    USPTA
    Bedford,MA
     
    #9
  10. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Although I consider the 2hbh to be like the forehand, it differs in some respects.

    First of all, for a righty, the right hand restricts how far back the left hand will go, and prevents the left arm and shoulder from being loaded as in a forehand. Thus it is imperative that the right shoulder stretch to the maximum extent in the backswing as part of loading. It should feel tight just before the forward swing starts.

    Secondly, the wrist of the left arm must extend, and that of the right hand must flex accordingly, so that the butt of the racquet points to the ball when the forward swing is initiated. The forward swing is like a left handed forehand in that the racquet is pulled into the ball from the inside to the outside as the ball is hit up and across.

    IMO, these are the two most important fundamentals of the 2hbh. Of course, there is footwork that goes with it... this has been discussed recently and I agree with the main points. Whether the racquet stays wholly on the hitting side or not is not relevant, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2013
    #10
  11. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    I hope Macci doesn't teach his students to flip their elbows like that.
     
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  12. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    I agree... the "flip" should happen as a side effect, and is not something to focus on primarily, IMO - but who am I to argue with Macci's success! :)
     
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  13. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Do you care to elaborate?

    Do you care to elaborate?
     
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  14. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    #14
  15. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    Sure. I agree with him that there should be a racket "flip," if that's what he likes to call it, but when he demonstrates, he flips not only his wrists but his elbows. That's about one of the worst things you can do with a two hander if you hope to hit a clean ball.
     
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  16. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    I am NOT sure whether you are correct

    I am NOT sure whether you are correct in interpretation of the tape/video.
    Please note that the quality of the tape/voice is bad.
    I coach the way Djokovic does it and I do NOT see the problem you mentioned.
     
    #16
  17. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    Macci was definitely demonstrating a flip of the elbows. Whether he was simply exaggerating for the purpose of his audience is another question; all I was saying is that I hope he doesn't teach it that way. BTW, Djokovic has a very good backhand and is a good teaching model.
     
    #17
  18. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Related post

    please see
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=485248&page=2
    post #33
     
    #18
  19. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    #19
  20. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I didn't spend a ton of time with it, but that Macci 2hbh video seems to be emphasizing the wrong things. That elbow flip thing I don't get.

    Djokovic's bh looks great. Do that.
     
    #20
  21. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Performance requirements

    The up part of the forward swing for A DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND can be constrained by two factors:

    1.capability to obtain two SSC's:
    FIRST at a lowest point of a swing,the second one at a contact

    2.capability to achieve a PRESCRIBED lowest point plus a required slope

    Please see AGAIN
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw
    The LOWEST POINT was SOMEWHERE above the level of knees.
    The angle of the slope looks like around 45 degrees.

    Now we have multiple questions of a day:
    how do we produce a motion of an arm to achieve #1 and/or #2 above ?

    Are we constrained by enviroroment/bounce/etc?

    What are OBSERVABLE to see whether SSC was achieved?

    How #2 influences # of shanks?

    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    USPTA
    Bedford,MA,US

    I understand that the "FLIP" in THIS THREAD is equivalent of what I call the "UP pART of the forward swing"
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
    #21
  22. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    What does "the second at a contact" mean?
     
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  23. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Conjecture

    There is a SECOND SSC at at a contact.
    I corrected the original post
    Thank you
     
    #23
  24. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I understand that it looks like there is a loading phase occurring at the lowest point as the racket dips down and lags, but I don't see a SSC at contact. Could you explain what you mean by that.

    I think the downward dipping of the racket head (is this what Macci means by flip?) is muscular because by intuition it appears to be happening too quickly to be simply due to gravity.

    I think it is a teachable motion that we should look for in our students, especially if they have a mostly across motion which drives the ball very flat (more like an old-school Connor's 2hbh). I haven't developed any drills, but if it is a muscular motion we should develop step-by-step drills to make the students feel the dip.

    I don't know enough which muscles are being loaded by the dipping motion, but it definitely creates a need to raise the head at contact which provides heavier topspin.
     
    #24
  25. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    What is contacting what?
     
    #25
  26. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Let me explain slowly

    A racket is contacting a ball.
    I apologize for my typing-not easy from a mobile.

    Let me describe the sequence:
    A racket reaches a lowest point.
    Arms/arm maybe straight here.
    A racket goes up
    A racket contacts a ball
    Arms/arm maybe straight here

    Am I helping AT ALL?
     
    #26
  27. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Arms STRAIGHT at the LOWEST POINT?

    Greetings,
    I teach "the dip".

    Switching gears to some observations/some videos
    Arms are observed to be straight AT THE LOWEST POINT at some NADAL's backhand return of serve.
    It maybe (note maybe) an indicator of an SSC here.
    The PAID Web site www.tennisicoach.com has a video of Nadal hitting a backhand return of serve.
    A "video" consists of 15 or more still photos.
    The photo closest to the LOWEST point shows straight arms-it is just an observation.
    So the sequence is
    bent (before the LOWEST point)
    STRAIGHT at the LOWEST point
    bent again on a way up
    STRAIGHT close to the contact point (with a ball)
    I do NOT know whether it can be taught or NOT.
    please see http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=485248&page=2 post #28
    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    USPTA
    Bedford,MA,US
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
    #27
  28. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Ball contact or impact lasts about 3-5 milliseconds.

    A stretch shortening cycle for a joint motion may be much longer, a slower stretching phase followed by an accelerating phase, tenths of a second? Usually for impact those particular SSCs have reached a high velocity. (ISR for the serve.) If you mean the SSC or those SSCs that continue to impact, try to identify, by muscles or joint.

    For example only (not for any stroke),
    Leading to impact, a SSC cycle of trunk muscles is used to rotate the upper body and a SSC of a shoulder muscle is used to accelerate the arm, etc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
    #28
  29. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    A peak of SSC

    Greetings,

    I do NOT fully understand your post.
    Let me try to get a bit closer and explain what I understand and what I do NOT.
    I agree about 3-5 miliseconds and mechanics behind SSC.
    Say that SSC for a FOREARM lasts 40 miliseconds
    (so I responded to your request to specify "by muscles or joint").
    It is MUCH shorter that you suggest.
    So it is a first difference between two of us.

    Let me check whether a classic paper by Komi provides any numbers.
    I will get back to you on this one today or tomorrow.
    The signal can be respresented either by a square or exponential function.
    Say that it is an exponential function of TIME.
    Let say SSC starts 20 miliseconds BEFORE the CONTACT with a ball.
    The maximum COULD be around the CONTACT point with a ball.
    Am I proceeding a REASONABLE direction so far?

    I can justify 40 seconds in couple of hours-I am on a court right now.
    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    PhD.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
    #29
  30. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    ------deleted------
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
    #30
  31. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    Hi Julian. This is how I would teach the SSC (my post from a different thread).

    On most two handed backhands, the left arm is straight, and the right arm is bent in the contact zone. Does this answer your question?
     
    #31
  32. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    Could u explain the reason for writing the two "not" in capital letters? Is the meaning different from if u had written them lowercase? Im JUST asking?

    edit:just saw now that that is ur general writing style. Pls disregard.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
    #32
  33. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Heath Waters

    If you have a space second please see
    http://www.virtualtennisacademy.com/...=detail&id=506
     
    #33
  34. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    ^^^ The link you've posted doesn't work, but I am assuming you are referring to the reference you have posted in http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7974454&postcount=35.

    The supination of the left arm that Heath is referring to can be achieved by pointing the butt of the racquet at the ball, IMO. He is not talking about getting a stretch on the right shoulder, but the girl seems to be doing the right thing in the demo. I think the right shoulder stretch is important for the reason I mentioned in a previous post, and should be taught (also happens if chin rests on right shoulder at the completion of backswing). Finally, in Heath's instruction, the forward motion seems to be initiated by ISR and pronation of the left arm... IMHO, while that is a key movement, I would think that the forward motion should come from a push off the ground by the legs as the racquet is pulled towards the ball with both hands working together, and the ISR should happen as a result of hitting up and across. This makes the left hand the main contributor, but ensures that the right hand is there for more than just a ride.

    Just my $0.02! :)
     
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