2nd Best clay courter - Joker vs Fed

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by kraggy, May 17, 2009.

  1. kraggy

    kraggy Banned

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    It's really tough to call this one.

    Throughout this clay season, Djoker has looked like the 2nd best clay courter. He has had some very dominant victories and gave Nadal tough matches almost every single time. He certainly had his fair share of chances to beat Nadal at Madrid as well.

    Fed on the other hand ACTUALLY beat Nadal. He has also beaten Nadal once before on clay and has a winning H2H vs Joker on clay 2-1 (although Joker won their most recent match up).

    Going by results, I would pick Federer, going on form I would pick Joker.Thoughts?
     
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  2. icedevil0289

    icedevil0289 Legend

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    Nole
    10 char
     
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  3. vtmike

    vtmike Banned

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    Federer in best of 5!

    Djokovic/Federer 50-50 in best of 3 sets...
     
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  4. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    I would say Nole. He's had to play Rafa three times in a row at Roland Garros, thereby not giving him a chance to reach those finals.

    I really hope he's on Federer's side this year so we can really see who's the 2nd best.
     
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  5. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    Djokovic was never going to make the finals in 2006 or 2007 regardless what half he was on. Federer was by far the better clay courter both years. 2008 is the first year you can even discuss or try to compare them on clay. Djokovic had dream draws in 2006 and 2007 to even get as far as he did.
     
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  6. dh003i

    dh003i Legend

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    Last time Federer played Djokovic on clay, which was last year, btw, he wiped him out, and Djokovic turned into Quitokovic again.

    That's the only H2H data-point we have.
     
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  7. matchmaker

    matchmaker Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic. He may not have won a single match, but he gave Nadal troubles in every single match they have played.

    Also, last year he was the only player to really make Nadal doubt for a second at RG, taking him to a tiebreak in the third set, in a tournament where Nadal lost 2 games per set on average.
     
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  8. vtmike

    vtmike Banned

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    Oh Come On!

    Let me break it down for you...

    1) In 2005 Djokovic lost to Guillermo Coria in the second round of RG (he retired after three sets). So it did not matter if he was in Fed's or Nadal's half anyways...

    2) In 2006 Djokovic lost to Nadal in the QF in TWO sets (he retired after playing two sets!). So he would have retired against any other player. Thus it did not matter if he was in Nadal's of Fed's half again...

    3) In 2007 Djokovic lost to Nadal in three straight sets...and Fed took Nadal to four sets (more than what Djokovic was able to achieve). So how can you say Djokovic would have defeated Fed in the semis had they met based on their performances against Nadal? :-?

    4) 2008 is the only year where it might have made a difference as Djokovic performed better against Nadal than Fed...But then again who's to say Fed would not have been able to beat Djokovic? We all know how Fed crumbles mentally against Nadal (proof: AO 2009). I mean he did beat Djokovic in the semis of the USO the same year & also in Monte Carlo on clay didn't he? :shock: So that is just speculation!

    So it did not matter who's half Djokovic was in because he would not have got to the finals anyways!
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
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  9. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Umm whole career Fed...how can this be a dispute throw out the french open finals fine.
    5 clay Master Series > 1 Clay master series.
    2 wins against Nadal on clay > 0 wins against Nadal on clay
    Fed leads there clay head to head 2-1..

    Where is the debate for their career.

    Nole might be the better claycourter at the moment..but last year Nole was called better as he won an MS and Fed fell runner up to Nadal in two MS finals...deja vu? Fed also beat Nole on clay last year now Nole beat him but fell runner up in 2 MS finals and Fed grabbed the clay MS that Nadal did not win mind you by beating Nadal..I still fail to see where the arguement is. If Nole beats Fed at France then their head to head is tied, but Fed still has achieved more..and unless Nole wins that French Open edge still goes to Fed.
     
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  10. Ray Mercer

    Ray Mercer Semi-Pro

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    Djokovic gets crushed every time they play on every surface. I would still go with Federer in a best of five against Djokovic. Djokovic cannot handle long 5 set matches. He's just not a tough kid.
     
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  11. matchmaker

    matchmaker Hall of Fame

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    Someone has to check his facts. Last time Djokovic and Fed played on clay was this year in Rome and Djokovic won.

    Djokovic also won on HC in Miami this year and has thus been unbeaten by Federer.

    The match you mention ended with Djokovic withdrawing, which, as you do have a point, he does all too often.
     
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  12. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    It's hard to say what would have happened in years past, but on current form I'd still like to see it.
     
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  13. vtmike

    vtmike Banned

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    He is talking about last year not this year...way to go off topic...
     
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  14. Ray Mercer

    Ray Mercer Semi-Pro

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    Yeah but both those matches were won when Federer played like a bum and still Nole couldn't even win in straights. When both are playing their best ie. Australia 07, US 07 and 08 its usually Federer putting on a clinic.
     
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  15. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    2008 Australian Open and 2007 Montreal...Djoker beat Fed there and both were at their best..

    (crap her comes the mono excuse..)
     
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  16. dh003i

    dh003i Legend

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    Oh yea, you're right; forgot about their one this year. Ok, fine. But Federer beat Nadal twice on clay; Djokovic 0. Federer's been to 3 consecutive FO finals; Djokovic 0. Etc.

    But if we're only talking about form in he moment, well, then of course, it's quite arguable. Djoko did beat Fed at Rome, but Fed beat Nadal at Madrid. And Federer's been playing pretty poorly this year for his standards, except the AO. It seems like Federer has found some form again going into the FO.

    Neither are likely to beat Nadal at the FO, but Federer is more likely. As you said, Djokovic quits too often, and that reflects poorly on his character. That kind of lack of spirit isn't what is going to beat Nadal on clay (or anywhere else for that matter).
     
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  17. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    Break it down to me?

    1. Had Coria gone on his slide yet? Because in the preceding years he was the King of Clay, so that proves nothing, especially since Novak was what? 18 years old?

    2. He played Nadal, what would anyone expect at that point? And just because he retired against Nadal doesn't mean he would have retired against anyone else, so not feeling you on this either.

    3. See #2. He played Nadal again. And where did I say he would have defeated Federer? I never said that, I said we've never seen him play Federer at RG because he played Nadal three years in a row.

    4. You are putting words in my mouth, or not reading my post clearly. I don't know who would've won. I would like to see them play with the stakes so high, that's what I said.

    P.S.-The debate would be better if you weren't being so aggressive. None of this really matters, does it?
     
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  18. Ray Mercer

    Ray Mercer Semi-Pro

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    3-1 in grand slam play.

    13-1 in grand slams won.

    Who's the better player? Owned.
     
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  19. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Well the point about 2005 was he would not have made it probably to the quarters or semis..

    2006 I think he is trying to say Djoker would have likely retired..I think so as well and honestly Fed beat Djoker on clay in 2006...

    2007 Fed was definitely playing better than Djoker on clay no questions asked he won an MS made the finals of another one..Djoker in 2007 went 3R, QF, SF in masters and did not take a set off Nadal in his semifinal.

    The only real case is 2008 that Djokovic was robbed his French Open chance the others honestly have counterarguments.
     
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  20. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    At this moment I probably give edge to Novak given the fact that Fed went out early in Monte Carlo and their clay H2H this year is 1-0 in favour of Novak.FO will probably be deciding though,so we'll see.Wouldn't mind a semi clash between those 2,should be a good match.
     
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  21. vtmike

    vtmike Banned

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    Am I putting words in your mouth? This was your post...Not being aggressive just telling you as I see it...

    You implied that Djokovic would reach the finals if he was in Federer's half (or atleast that is what I took out of it)...and I believe he would not based on all the points in my previous post...

    If you are talking exclusively about this year then yes, the second best claycourt title is pretty close between Novak & Federer...

    and yes all this is all just speculation...which was also one of the points I made in that post...Nobody knows what might have happened...So lets just leave it at that and give credit to Fed for making it to the finals three years in a row...
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
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  22. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Umm hi I did not say Djokovic was better you said when both are at their best Fed is usually putting on a clinic..meaning beating the crap out of Djoker. I stated matches that were not true to your theory. I agreed Fed>Djokovic but to say Djokovic could not beat Fed is ridiculous as Fed is 7-4 against Djokovic.
     
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  23. kraggy

    kraggy Banned

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    Fed has 13 slams, Nadal has 6 slams. Hence Fed is clearly a better clay courter than Nadal!

    This thread is not for the logically challenged, please come up with something better.
     
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  24. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Agree completely.Last year maybe Novak would have beaten Fed at the FO but no way in 2006 and 2007,Fed was clearly a better claycourter in those years,without a doubt.Even last year in their single meeting on clay Fed prevailed.
     
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  25. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    Whoever does better at the French Open especialy if they are in the same half. Of course if one of them wins the French you could argue that player as being the best clay courter this year, considering Djokovic has already taken Nadal the distance in 2 out of 3 matches and Federer already beaten him once on clay this year.
     
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  26. Ray Mercer

    Ray Mercer Semi-Pro

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    Gotcha

    3 Finals vs. no finals
     
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  27. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    What? 10 char..
     
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  28. kraggy

    kraggy Banned

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    And HENCE the original post -"I would take Federer based on results and I would take Nole based on current form!"

    Fed's overall H2H vs Novak or his grand slam tally have no bearing on this discussion.
     
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  29. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    agreed. To speculate who would win a match is nice but lets see if it happens it is most likely going to happen this year I hope it would. It would be nice to see an interesting Fed v. Djoker match.
     
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  30. kraggy

    kraggy Banned

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    Was being sarcastic because he brought up Fed's 13 slams vs Noles 1 slam
     
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  31. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    OH okay lol
     
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  32. Ray Mercer

    Ray Mercer Semi-Pro

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    Your logic in placing Djokovic over Federer was based on their two matches this year. I replied that Federer played like a bum which he did therefore I don't put much stock in those victories. Novak has had three cracks at Nadal on clay and has not won any of them. Roger just won in straight sets even though Nadal may have been slightly tired. In a 5 set match I go with Federer. If they square up in the semi-finals put your money where your mouth is. We can set-up a bet via paypal with a neutral poster holding the money.
     
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  33. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    The way I see it,regardless of the results in the clay masters whoever wins the FO in a given year he's simply the best claycourter that year,period.The FO or any slam is way more important than masters,even more than the point difference shows IMO.
     
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  34. T1000

    T1000 Hall of Fame

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    Nadal vs joker - nadal won
    Nadal vs federer - federer won

    I'll take fed thanks
     
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  35. Novak Djokovic
     
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  36. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    I implied nothing. I have no idea who woulda, coulda, shoulda. I said Djokovic played Nadal three years straight and we haven't seen him play Fed at the French in the last couple of years. You've come to your own conclusion about what I think.

    And, if you read my post and yours, you'll see we're not that far off.

    But when you use the word implied, you're admitting I didn't say it in the first place.

    And yes, I do think you have an aggressive style, period.
     
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  37. kraggy

    kraggy Banned

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    It's easy to use the 'played like a bum' excuse . Why don't I just say Nadal played like a bum today and discredit Fed's victory!

    Your comprehension ability is as weak as your ego is strong. Did I even say that Novak would beat Federer ? I put out 2 areas of consideration (current form vs overall results) to initiate the discussion. That's all.

    Grow up.
     
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  38. Ray Mercer

    Ray Mercer Semi-Pro

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    Federer played horrible in that match. The amount of unforced errors were ridiculous. You can't possibly think those errors were the result of Djokovic's outstanding play. Overall results over the years has got to reside with Federer. Current form is close. Like I said, let's put a few dollars on the line.
     
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  39. Rhino

    Rhino Legend

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    Definitely Federer.
    3 RG finals in a row, and 2 wins against Nadal, including today in straight sets.
     
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  40. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Federer's the only man in the past few years (outside of Ferrero) to beat Nadal on clay. He's the best 2nd on clay still until further notice.
     
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  41. kraggy

    kraggy Banned

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    Maybe you have a lot of money to throw but I would never bet on an event who's outcome is NOT in my hands.

    Secondly, I already told you I DID NOT SAY NOLE WAS THE BETTER CLAYCOURTER. I DID NOT SAY NOLE WOULD BEAT FEDERER. I did not make ANY JUDGEMENT AT ALL ! I threw out some facts and started a discussion. That's it!Am I being crystal clear now?
     
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  42. Ray Mercer

    Ray Mercer Semi-Pro

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    Ok fair enough. I don't see either beating Nadal at Roland Garros. It's just too difficult to hit winners on that surface and knowone plays percentage tennis better than Nadal. Nadal will stand 10 feet behind the baseline and return even excellent serves and will grind out another victory. Both Federer and Djokovic will go for difficult winners and likely miss more than they make. Hopefully Federer can avoid the forehand to backhand exchange as much as possible. He did a good job of that today but I don't think he will get as many free points on serves which he needs. In Djokovic's case I don't he's physically strong enough to play hard for two weeks and then have to grind out a 5 hour fight with Nadal.
     
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  43. sh@de

    sh@de Hall of Fame

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    What he said. Nadal will win FO, I don't think either Djokovic or Federer could take him on there. That said, I think Federer is the better clay courter. His results so far have been much better, as shown by numerous posters already, and he's not looking too shabby. Current form appears to be quite close for me just by looking at the Madrid matches, so with current form equal and past results better, Fed has the edge.
     
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  44. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    Djokovic played Rafa three years straight and gave him a pretty good match. I don't know about 2006, and saying someone would have likely retired and considering that a true point fails, imo. There is no way of knowing what would have happened had events been different.

    I'm not talking about Masters Series, I'm speaking about the French. I thought Djokovic gave Rafa some of his sternest tests and it would be interesting to see how Roger would have fared against him when he was on form like he was with Nadal.

    Now, I am not saying who I think would've won because I don't make predictions. What I am saying is it will be interesting to see Joker and Fed on clay on the big stage. That's all.
     
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  45. icedevil0289

    icedevil0289 Legend

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    It definitely will. I do hope that nole is on roger's side of the draw this year. Although it would be hilarious of either one of them went out before they were able to meet each other.
     
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  46. gj011

    gj011 Banned

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    Novak of course. Without the question. He was better clay court player last year and would have clearly made the RG final if he was not in Nadal's half and is better clay court player by far this season.
     
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  47. P_Agony

    P_Agony Banned

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    Currently Federer is.

    The reason: a MS title and a win over Nadal on clay.

    However, that all means squat. The player who will reach the final of the FO (could be anyone) will be the 2nd best clayer (unless he wins it and then he's the 1st).
     
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  48. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    Wrong. If Djokovic is on Nadal's side, it won't be so obvious since Nadal is the best at RG clay.
     
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  49. P_Agony

    P_Agony Banned

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    Well that's assuming Federer and Djokovic are on the same half of the draw.

    I really have a feeling they will finally have a chance to duke it out.
     
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  50. P_Agony

    P_Agony Banned

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    Also, nobody said either Fed or Djoko will make it to the final. Yes, it'll probably be one of them, but who knows? It could be Juan Monaco for all we know. I will consider the person who makes it to the final the 2nd best clay courter of the season.
     
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