2nd greatest female player of all time

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by grafselesfan, Aug 24, 2009.

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2nd greatest female player of all time

  1. Navratilova

    55.6%
  2. Evert

    8.3%
  3. Court

    5.6%
  4. Seles

    16.7%
  5. Connolly

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Jean King

    2.8%
  7. Wills Moody

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Lenglen

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Serena Williams

    5.6%
  10. other

    5.6%
  1. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    For those of us who concede that Graf is the greatest womens player of all time who would be your pick as the 2nd greatest womens player of all time.
     
    #1
  2. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    For me it's Navratilova, no question. Although Graf is the GOAT in my opinion, Navratilova is definitely a close second.
     
    #2
  3. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Even though Graf is 2nd on my list, if I looked at it from the Perspective of Graf being first, my choice for second would be Navratilova of maybe Court, depending on what a person who believe Graf is the best values, and if Graf is number 1 I could see Court being second by putting an emphasis on slams, or Navratilova being second for her high peak level of play. But this for me is hypothetical, although its cool to think outside my own box a little.
     
    #3
  4. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Well as Graf is 2 on my list as well if I were looking at Graf being 1 I would be looking at Martina being 2.
     
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  5. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    Billie Jean King is my choice as 2nd greatest womens player ever after Graf.
     
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  6. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    My pick was Monica Seles. Without the stabbing she and Graf would both have 20 or more slams and their rivalry would be epic and they would be rated the 2 greatest ever today.
     
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  7. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    I agree that Seles would have been a GOAT contendor, but don't you think it is a bit unfair to completely ignore the accomplishments the others made. To say Seles would have won 11 more slams is a lot..and if she would have done that with graf still gett to 22 from the point of the stabbing graf had what 11 slams..that means them taking 22 slams. Thats nearly 6 yeras of slams. So from 1993 (3) - 1998 they would be the only ones winning slams. I find that a bit hard to believe.
     
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  8. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Here is how I roughly see it:

    Before stabbing Graf had 11 and Seles 8.

    1993- Graf still wins Wimbledon and U.S Open this year, French is a toss up. Graf wins 2-3, Seles wins an additional 0-1 to go with her 93 Australian Open.
    Graf now is at 13 or 14, Seles at 8 or 9.

    1994- This year is a hard one to call. Graf still wins the 94 Australian Open since while Seles is better on rebound ace Graf played above herself that event. Pierce, Sanchez, and Novotna were all real contender this year depending on their draws. Pierce would rather play Graf or Seles when she gets in the zone than Novotna or Sanchez in fact. Sanchez would not want to play Seles. Novotna would want to avoid Graf or even aging Navratilova who she never fared well against. Graf might actually gain another slam depending on her draws, Seles probably wins atleast 1 or maybe more. I am guessing 1 slam only for Graf though, 1-2 slams for Seles, 1-2 slams combined for Sanchez/Pierce/Novotna. Graf is now at 14 or 15, Seles at around 10.

    1995- I see Pierce still winning the Australia, Graf winning 1 or 2 of the final 3 slams, and Seles winning the other 1 or 2. Graf is now at around 16, Seles at 11 or 12.

    1996- I dont see this year being any different as far as the winners event without the stabbing. Graf is now at 19, Seles at 12 or 13.

    1997- I see Seles and Hingis splitting and each winning 2. Hingis the Australian, Seles the French, not sure on the other 2 but 1 each. Novotna was injured in the Wimbledon final which is the only reason Hingis won there btw. Seles is now at 14 or 15.

    1998- Davenport definitely wins the U.S Open still, but I see Seles winning 2 of the other 3 since it wasnt really impressive- a sluggish Hingis in Australia, a past her prime Sanchez (Seles's pigeon) at the French, a choking Novotna in the Wimbledon final. Novotna probably still wins Wimbledon, Seles wins the first 2 slams now. Seles is now at 16 or 17.

    1999- Stronger field now but Graf was still a major force with her French title and Wimbledon final. Seles would have still been one too. I am guessing both get 1 slam. Graf ends up with around 20, Seles now at 17 or 18.

    2000 to 2002 - Davenport and the Williams have clearly surpassed Monica by now, but the 3 slams Capriati won would be her window. Seles wins 2 or 3 of Crapriati's lucky slams and ends up with around 20.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2009
    #8
  9. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    I went with Court, but Wills or Lenglen interest me too. Navratilova has one of the poorest records on slow surfaces among this list, two RG titles only one Italian and no German just does not cut it in over 20 years on the tour. Can't blame everything on Evert's presence.
     
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  10. JayTie

    JayTie New User

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    I picked Seles as the 2nd greatest female. Navratilova is a close second. Court won 11 of her 24 slams at the AO which wasn't that big of a deal those days. I have to admit that her record is still very impressing though.
     
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  11. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    I see why people are ranking Seles second but in reality I just don't think that's right when it's based on what 'could have' been. What happened was a tragedy, and it's definitely not fair, but 'probably' and 'maybe' unfortunately just don't cut it in the grand scheme of things and Seles's record as it stands is nowhere near good enough to be ranked that high.
     
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  12. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    There is another way to look at it though. Greatest ever doesnt neccessarily mean most accomplished ever. There are various circumstances that can go into who is the most accomplished, but if one chooses to pick who they felt simply played the greatest tennis well that is subjective to the individual. Seles also probably had her career in the toughest whole tire period of anyone. As an up and comer she came in when prime Graf, near prime Navratilova, prime Sabatini, near prime Sanchez Vicario were on top. Then at her dominant 2-3 year peak she had to contest prime Graf, Sabatini at her all time peak, Sanchez Vicario, Navratilova, and still dominated the field to win all those slams. Then after the stabbing she came in when Graf was unbeatable, Sanchez Vicario was at her peak, Pierce was now a huge force, Novotna was coming into her peak, up and coming Hingis was nearing her early prime. Then after this group came Hingis in her best years, Davenport in her best years, the Williams entering their primes, Novotna at her peak. There was never a letoff, a period she could coast at any less than her best and still win (eg- Serena now). The weakest years as far as overall depth were the years she missed with the stabbing probably.
     
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  13. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    I have Navratilova as GOAT, and Graf as second. Therefore, my pick here would be Martina.
     
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  14. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    That's a good point actually. The whole GOAT craze often seems to focus solely on stats, whereas watching the player actually play their game at their peak is no doubt an important factor too. I think a lot of people talk about the greatness of people they've never seen play, just basing it on stats. That's why I never factor in the old greats like Wills Moody because I never saw her play and it's too difficult to consider her based on stats alone IMO.
     
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  15. NonP

    NonP Professional

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    That's a valid point, and it's one I share. But, as usual, degrees matter. We can argue over Laver, Borg, Sampras and Federer because their accomplishments are relatively close. Graf and Seles, though, are just too far apart in realized potential. I'd say their peak playing level is debatable, but not their place in the GOAT ladder.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2009
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  16. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Thats true. I have seen a bit of footage of Lenglen and Wills play but not much to go by. I mostly just go on their stats and what I read of their games. Then again they played so far back it would be unreaslistic to judge them just by watching them anyway even if you could. I see your point that it is hard to rank them vs the more modern players though.
     
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  17. Henry Kaspar

    Henry Kaspar Rookie

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    What about those who think that ranking goddesses is wrong. And those you listed are all goddesses, or semi-goddesses at least.
     
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  18. Topspinslice

    Topspinslice New User

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    If the parameters in this thread is that Graf is the GOAT, then I would go for Navratilova or Court as number two.
     
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  19. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

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    If the original post is taken as the starting point, then it's Martina, hands down. However, I have Martina as the greatest ever, and place Evert behind Martina at No. 2, then Graf at 3, then Court at 4.
     
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  20. If she had not been stabbed, then Seles would be the greatest ever, or maybe Navratilova. With Seles, Steffi would not have more than Navratilova's 18 titles.

    But, as it is, we must say Navratilova is the second best. She was beating Graf in her thirtires.
     
    #20
  21. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    I hope everyone gets atleast one vote. I always feel bad for the people on a poll who get none. I wonder who on earth the "other" vote is for. I am guessing a Justine Henin fan.
     
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  22. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    I really don't see how Evert can be above Graf :confused:
     
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  23. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

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    Simple; she had to contend with Martina, another all-time great, for pretty much her entire career. Steffi had Seles for three years, but other than that had lesser players. There was a period of 3-4 years where Chris and Martina won every Slam, and they faced each other in many of the Slams they won.
     
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  24. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    But don't you think that just by watching them play in their primes, Graf is the superior player? I mean competition is relevant but it's not Graf's fault that she was so good that she just beat the **** out of everyone. :)
     
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  25. lambielspins

    lambielspins Banned

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    Martina wasnt that good at all during the main period of Evert's dominance. The only 2 slam finals she reached until 1978 were a very depleted Australian Open (where she was pounded by the mid 70s clear #2 player Goolagong) and a very depleted French Open (where she took Evert to 3 but her draw to the final was still a joke). The fully attended big events around then she couldnt even make a single final, losing to people like 33 year old Court, Betty Stove, Wendy Turnbull, and even Janet Newburry. That covers 4 of the 6 biggest events she played those few years, yeah she did make lose to Chris in 2 others, once after barely getting past Barker. Then even when she did win a couple Wimbledons she still couldnt even make the final anywhere outside Wimbledon until late 81, including losses in limited slam play from 78-81 to people like 16 year old Shriver, pre-prime teenaged newcoming Hana 2 or 3 times in slams, Turnbull again, Hanika.

    Chris's biggest competition from 74-77 was Goolagong and an aging King, not Navratilova. Chris's biggest competition in 1980-1981 was clearly a young Austin until Martina also made her move late in 1981. In 78-79 Chris was in a minor slump and there were no great players in top form or near their career peaks so it was kind of an open time amongst the top group fo women.

    Chris posted most of her big wins before Martina's prime years began in late 81/82 or so. The Martina of the 70s and very start of the 80s wasnt any better than the old Martina that Graf and Seles faced from 88-93, in fact most likely worse. Nor was the Martina of 74-mid 81 probably any better than even people like Sanchez Vicario, post stabbing Seles, young Hingis, or even Sabatini at her peak (I fully expect Sabatini would have done even better vs Martina those years than in her old age years when she played her and held her own).
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
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  26. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    This is my all time greatest list:

    1. Graf
    2. Court
    3. Evert
    4. Wills Moody
    5. Navratilova
    6. Lenglen
    7. Connolly
    8. King
    9. Seles
    10. Serena Williams

    Personally I think Navratilova is given far too much credit for just a 5 year stretch of dominance from 82-86 where she played incredible and dominant tennis. That plus longevity playing at a very good, but definitely not great or near peak level until she was almost 40 which was for me merely partial compensation for the many years before 25 she could have been playing at her prime level and wasnt. This as opposed to true longevity of playing near your best so long like Court, Evert, and Graf all had. Then even in her best 2 years ever choking and having 2 really bad losses (1 especialy) in slams, which Graf of 88-89, 95-96, or Court of 69-70 didnt really do. Anyway she was nowhere near her 82-86 level the rest of her career, and almost all other all time greats mantained an exceptional level close to their peak so much longer than that. Evert was near her best for 12 or 13 years, Navratilova for 4 or 5. Evert gets shafted in peoples views compared to Martina since Martina during her relatively short peak was superior, but IMO overall Evert was the superior player and had the superior career. Basically I see Martina as clearly inferior to all of Graf, Court, and Evert as far as longevity (longevity of great play, not middling pretty good play), consistency of course, versatility (clay record weaker than all others record on any surface, and struggled on rebound ace the bit she got to play on it). As for quality of competition the 82-86 field other than a possibly bit past her prime Evert and the erratic Hana was very weak IMO, and given that Martina herself said in interviews Chris despite her greatness with her playing style she found even easier to play than a much less accomplished player like Hana, young pre-prime Graf, or even Helena really sheds some light on how it was even easier for her given that factor. As for dominance I believe Court's 69-70 and Graf's 88-89 or 95-96 were still more dominant and greater years since they performed greater in slams with 7 wins and 1 final/semi as opposed to 6 wins, a semifinal and a 3rd round loss.

    I believe Wills Moody is superior to Lenglen since she had a much longer career and travelled all parts of the World to dominate more than Lenglen did. I gave Connolly and Seles both a boost up of a spot due to their circumstances. I believe Court is very underrated in the U.S, who like to promote Navratilova and Evert as the best while downgrading the foreign greats, with Graf also getting high respect in all time consideration in the U.S only since she lives there now and is married to Agassi.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
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  27. Argento full

    Argento full New User

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    Sorry, but i choose Graf
     
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  28. RFLEGEND

    RFLEGEND Rookie

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    i pick monica seles as 2nd greatest
     
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  29. ZhengJieisagoddess

    ZhengJieisagoddess Semi-Pro

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    I voted before I saw your first post. For me, Martina is the greatest ever -- man or woman. Chrissie is the scond greatest woman to play the game.
     
    #29
  30. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    My GOAT List:

    1. Martina Navratilova
    2. Steffi Graf
    3. Chris Evert
    4. Margaret Court
    5. Helen Wills Moody
    6. Suzanne Lenglen
    7. Maureen Connolly
    8. Billie Jean King
    9. Serena Williams
    10. Monica Seles

    The list is really close among the adjoining names. Martina and Steffi are the top 2 and are really close in that respect, Steffi had the surface dominance, but to me Nav at her best was slightly better plus I give Nav credit for turning her 22-4 trailing H2H with Evert in a winning 43-37. Steffi was amazing though and I have no problem with anyone calling her the greatest, and really any of my top 4 are arguable. Chris gets the edge over Court because of her consistancy, plus Court is depleted a little because of her inflated Australian Numbers (which when compared to the other grass slams are bigger than they should be once the fields are compared). I put Moody above Lenglen because of her having more slams, but its hard to judge them because they played so long ago. Connolly is in a sort of limbo at 7. Truly dominant during her short run, only 2 losses ever in slam competition and first ever calender slam winner. King is sort of stuck in 8th, strong but not in the true top tier. Serena in my mind will pass Seles, especially with 1 more slam title,so I just gave her number 9. King is in her reach to but for me to put Serena at number 8 Serena needs at least 14 slams...and I would push 15 or 16 because she goes to town way to easily on these people today at slams and doesn't have the non slam title numbers really. Monica is 10 now...
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009
    #30
  31. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    One interesting thing in comparing Court and King is at the 3 non Australian slams Court only leads King by 2 (13 to 11) and at Wimbledon and the U.S Open Court surprisingly trails King by 2 (10 to 8 ). It is interesting to wonder how close their slam tallies might be if King played Australia regularly (given the thinking then it is understandable there was no reason for her to) which could have boosted her own slam count and decreased the slam count of Court. Then again Court would have had home crowd advantage in Australia so it might have been hard for King to beat her there that often. Of course there is much more to consider than just pure slam count, especialy for players who started their contending days before 1982 or so, but the perceived gulf between Court and King is still largely 24 slams to 12 as true contemporaries.
     
    #31
  32. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Martina
    Graf
    Court
    Evert
    Moody
    Lenglen
    BJK
    Connolly
    Williams
    Seles

    Like boredone said Serena is low until she either steps it up outside of slams or wins like 3 or 4 more. Once Serena gets to something like 14 or 15 I will bump her up. It makes up for her not giving a crap I guess.
     
    #32
  33. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Still Court has a Grand Slam, won a lot more tournaments and had to recover from pregnancies which hampered her effectiveness.
     
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  34. lambielspins

    lambielspins Banned

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    I wouldnt even put Williams above Seles yet.
     
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  35. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    I personally would, but it's close. There was a thread about this very question not so long ago. Serena does have more slams but more importantly a career slam which I don't believe Seles was capable of achieving even without the stabbing. I understand why people would put Seles higher though.
     
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