3.5 singles

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Playtennis, Apr 2, 2013.

  1. SpitFire

    SpitFire New User

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    Where are you from Overdrive? I'm sure there's a player on this forum somewhere close that'd love to beat you...I mean play a few sets against you, to better document your skill level.:twisted:
     
  2. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Hmmm...I made my post largely because you talked about your 4.0 players being always expected to beat your 3.5 players. Heck I play on a team of 3.5s that beats 4.0s regularly. Granted the 3.5s are really good, and the 4.0s are so, so, but you get the idea.
     
  3. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    I don't but you have showed signs of that by posting things that I have already stated against.

    That's apparently the norm around here.

    If I posted tournament records (which I don't have), then you still won't believe me because you will begin to post that the opponent manipulated his record and whatnot. Then what? I earn your respect? From others?

    There's no secret to this. It's not a miracle. I simply beat these players because I outplayed them.

    You and others can condemn my posts as much as you want, but it doesn't do anything overall.

    Besides, you and other people are too old to be bickering about this on the internet.
     
  4. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Like I thought, it didn't happen. You have a ways to go before reaching LeeD levels of delusion but keep at it grasshopper you are well on your way.
     
  5. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    I doesn't matter what you think, I still have the memories. Also, I would never forget the outbursts and reactions to the opponents as well.

    LeeD levels of delusion?
     
  6. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Right. You just are unable to describe them for some reason. Like for instance names of players you've beaten.
     
  7. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    Revealing information like that on the internet?

    Your kidding.

    Reason won't settle this then eh?

    Please put me back on ignore.
     
  8. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Revealing the name of someone on the internet scares you? These 5.0C players you've beaten are all in tennislink. Just put a pointer to one of them in this thread.
    When you finally exhibit some reason I will consider the matter settled.
    Please quit posting on topics about which you have no clue.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  9. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    Alright.

    I posted on this topic because it was in my experience and no one elses.
    It doesn't make sense for anyone else to rely on my testimony.
     
  10. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Well congratulations, you've finally said something I can agree with.
     
  11. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    Do I get a cookie? It is my birthday after all.
     
  12. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Happy sweet sixteen. But no cookie for you.
     
  13. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    It doesn't matter. Most desserts baked by men aren't good anyways.
     
  14. eastbayliz

    eastbayliz Rookie

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    Wow this thread has both entertaining and educational. Talk is cheap, indeed! I look forward to seeing where my current 3.5 rating is after a year of tournaments. I left the game for 15 years and came back thinking I could clean up at 4.5. From last July-December I was 0-5 in 4.5. Lots of women play up in 4.5 tourneys so I ended with a 3.5. I am now playing 4.0 and looking for a strong season. Things I have learned since coming back. I am 35. I am not old..... but I am not so young either! lol Just about to register this weekend for tourney in Oakland next weekend.
     
  15. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Andre Agassi, one of the fittest players in tennis, retired at 36. There's a reason they came up with five year increments for Senior Age Group tournaments. Some of the guys in the eighty's think it should be two year increments. You can't fight gravity and mother nature--maybe competitive swimmers can last longer. G'luck!
     
  16. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    Then why do you keep arguing when other people are dismissing your testimony, like you are saying we should (which I think all regulars around here would agree with)?
     
  17. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Some folks on this thread are talking about 4.0 vs. 5.5. Or 4.0 v. 5.0. Or 3.5 v. 4.0. Or 3.0 v. 4.0. So it has become a bit confusing.

    I would say that no one beats someone who is two USTA levels above them. Perhaps I as a 4.0 doubles player could lose to a 3.0 singles player, but no way do two 3.0 doubles players beat me and a 4.0 partner.

    Regarding how I would do against two 3.5s if I have a 4.0 partner, all I can say is that I haven't come close to losing such a match. There are surely 3.5s who have 4.0 skills and simply haven't been moved up yet. So far, I haven't come across those teams, but I still would like my chances. The one thing I would have over them is more experience at 4.0, and I would expect that to carry me to the win.

    It is interesting, though. I remember when I was a 3.5 playing up that it didn't seem like the 4.0s were any stronger, but they always beat me. Now that I am the 4.0, I understand it. The 4.0s have something the 3.5s do not: The ability to come to net, erect a wall on the service line, and win the point from that position with penetrating volleys and overheads. If the 3.5s get to net first, the 4.0s have passing shots that cause the 3.5s to pop the ball up.

    Now when I watch the 4.5 ladies play, their advantage over us 4.0s is that their volleys are even more penetrating. It is amazing how much weight they get on their volleys, and how much variety they have from anywhere on the court.
     
  18. The Isomotion31

    The Isomotion31 Semi-Pro

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    Best of luck. I hope the weather clears up for you.
     
  19. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    We need to distinguish between the accurate computer rating and NTRP rating.

    Using the NTRP-level, a 3.5 can beat a 4.0. For sure. However, going by computer ratings... you have to look deeper.

    I'd say that nobody is beating someone who is a computer-rated half of a point above them. Ever.

    For example, a 3.48 (which is NTRP 3.5) will never beat a 3.98 (which is NTRP 4.0 bordering on 4.5). However, a 3.48 might beat a 3.52 (which is also a 4.0). But their computer ratings are only separated by .04 in that case.

    When we get down to these details, we really have to start talking about the computer-ranking score. Because in reality, the range of difference between 3.5 and 4.0 is actually not .50.

    In reality, the range of NTRP 3.5 and NTRP 4.0 goes from 3.01 to 3.98. That is a full point.
     
  20. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    Well said. (10 char)
     
  21. JoeR

    JoeR New User

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    Details?

    I'm sure the GF and I would love to come and see some non-college tournaments for once!

    :)
     
  22. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    Those are the same people who flock on my previous threads and literally derail them by spewing nonsense posts. It's petty and childish.
     
  23. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    You know... just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
     
  24. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    If ratings were based on singles play only I would completely agree with you but they are not. I firmly believe you can be a 3.98 rated player based exclusively on doubles play yet lose to someone who has a earned a 3.48 rating based only on singles play.

    The skills for the two games are very different. For example I've seen a very successful doubles player at the 4.0 level, evidenced by the fact that he has been bumped up to 4.5 and back to 4.0, who lost a singles match to a very good 3.5 player who was playing up at 4.0. Of course I don't know their actual dynamic ntrp ratings but I suspect that they were very close to a full .5 level apart if not possibly more than that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  25. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    What is petty and childish is you continuing to post nonsense that only serves to draw attention to how delusional you are. The phenomenon is called attention whoring.

    You claiming that you have only been playing tennis two years and have beaten 5.0 computer rated players and players of 5.5 level ability is one.

    You claiming to have done these things but then stating that your high school coach won't play you in a top position is another.

    I could go on and on because you just won't stop posting nonsense.
     
  26. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    I agree with a lot of what you are writing, but I watched a mid 40s 3.5C take 4 games off of a 25 year 5.0B last Feb.

    The 3.5 guy had Ad-In on the 5.0 guy three times in one game and lost, so he was close to taking a fifth games off the 5.0 in the second set. The score was 1&3.

    The 3.5 should have been bumped long ago. He is still a 3.5C. The 5.0B went 10-0 against 4.5C players in 2011, and was bumped to 5.0 Dec 2012, with the B added

    So while the USTA NTRP system says the score should have been 0&0 even for a 4.5C vs the 3.5C, somebody forget to tell the the 3.5C he was supposed to roll over and take his bagels. Worse yet, there are better 3.5 players than this guy running around town playing 3.5, 7.0Mixed, and 7.5 Combo. There is one ex college player playing 3.5 at my club on another team. Yep. Ex college player playing 3.5. His team sucks, but he doesn't. :shock:

    Just adds to my position that the USTA NTRP system is seriously flawed and easily manipulated.
     
  27. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Most likely this poor 5.0 was just bored stiffless and was tooling around.
     
  28. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    This is the exact reasoning behind why we have said that a 3.5 might beat a 4.0 but wont beat a 4.5

    Highest 3.5 = 3.50
    lowest 4.5 = 4.01
    defference in ratings = 0.51 this is the smallest possible difference in dynamic ratings between a 3.5 and a 4.5 and the expected outcome is is 6-0,6-0
     
  29. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    The ratings being discussed here are what I like to call "honest" ratings ... many people manage their ratings either by throwing matches or by just keeping them close, so just having a "c" rating doesnt mean it's "honest"

    as for your position ... yup it's flawed and easily manipulated but I still haven't heard any ideas that I believe are any better (although I've heard lots of ideas).
     
  30. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I think focusing on NTRP is a bit of a red herring.

    USTA doesn't release ratings to the hundredth of a point, so we can never know where two computer-rated players stand in relation to each other to that degree.

    Which leaves us with:

    A player .5 below another player might beat them.

    A player 1.0 below another player has no chance.

    Since my results suggest I am an average 4.0 and my partner is the same, we won't lose to two 3.5s. No matter how high they are within 3.5, we are not at the bottom of 4.0 and so should beat them. Which is pretty much what happens.
     
  31. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    Agree. And this leaves me with what I think all of us who play USTA already know...

    The average 3.5 is going to lose to the average 4.0... 6-0, 6-0.
     
  32. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    How hard was the 5.0 guy playing? I'm pretty sure a 5.0 playing 100% effort could double bagel a 3.5-4.0 player.

    Okay, it's not automatic, but overall point is the lower player is not beating the higher player with a 1.0 NTRP difference in playing levels.

    So he won 1 and 3 and I'm assuming the 5.0 guy didn't lose his serve? Ad-in doesn't mean much when you can probably pop a service winner when needed. Second set 5.0 guy probably just broke once, held his serve and didn't try much on return games and saved energy for the next round.

    And a ex-college player is not really a 3.5 - a sandbagger of the lowest order maybe, but not a 3.5.
     
  33. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    Come on. Not automatic??? You have got to be kidding me. I can't believe you are even conceding any ground on this.

    You're a VERY nice guy for even giving any credence to those statements.
     
  34. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    Maybe the 5.0 was fooling around on a return game and got sand in his eye at Ad-in on the 4.0's service game? - LOL!

    I mean the 5.0 has to actually want to play.
     
  35. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    A few years ago when I was a 3.5, I played in an age-group tournament and faced a 5.0 pro from a local club that had won numerous tournaments in the area. By the numbers I should have lost "worse" than 0 & 0, but managed to lose 2 & 2.

    How could this happen? First, I played about as well as I could at the time. Even so, I didn't win a game until I was down 4-0 and he probably let up to end the set. When I held my first two games second set and had it 2-2, he simply turned it on again and pulled away. Additionally, as a club pro I think he'd been primarily feeding balls to students lately and may have been a bit rusty.

    So, just because a certain score is expected doesn't mean it is going to happen, particularly in lopsided match-ups like this. The rust in his game and him being nice in the middle of the match allowed me to win a few games. But there was never any chance I was going to win the match.
     
  36. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

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    It's like a train derailment with a few gold dollars scattered among the wreckage...I've been thoroughly enlightened on the rating scale and also entertained. I can't quit reading. Its like the scam threads in the for sale forum.
     
  37. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    Nope.. I know both of them.

    The 3.5's rating is just wrong. Along with a lot of other 3.5s and 4.0s

    The ex college player who plays 3.5 is better than that 3.5
     
  38. eastbayliz

    eastbayliz Rookie

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    Lol.... Nice summery of thread!
     
  39. eastbayliz

    eastbayliz Rookie

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  40. TennisDawg

    TennisDawg Semi-Pro

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    So, now we have a NTRP rating with the letter C after it? What's a 3.5C?
     
  41. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    C=computer - You have played enough matches that the USTA computer places you at this level.
     
  42. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I am a 4.0. I played a 5.0 B rated league player player in a tournament (a guy who played in 5.0 sectionals to get the B, not a recently bumped 4.5). We were playing in the semis of the county championiship tournament, and his top-seeded finals opponent was on the court next to us wiping out his semis opponent love and one. There is absolutely ZERO chance he was taking it easy or just fooling around with me. I lost 1 & 6. I even had a chance to take the set in the tb. He was serving at 5-all. I hit a shot deep into the backhand corner that he had to run to get and returned (somewhat short) to the middle of the court. I hit a forehand to his forehand corner and came in behind it ready to knock off a volley to set up a serve for the set. On a full sprint, the guy ripped a forehand from outside the alley that wasn't actually over the court until it landed 2 in inside each line. One of the greatest shots I've ever had played against me. I was dumbstruck at that point and lost the next point.

    He was certainly the better player, and if that's what he can come up with at 5-all in a tiebreaker, I tip my hat, but saying that a 5.0 playing full effort against a 4.0 will dobule bagel him every time is just wrong. I know what the USTA says about rating differences and 0 & 0 scores, but it's poorly worded and has been almost universally misinterpreted.
     
  43. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Mmmm, I don't agree.

    I have played a lot of USTA matches, and I have only double-bageled someone a few times.

    I would say that the average 3.5 is going to lose to the average 4.0 most of the time (90%?). The 3.5 will probably win 0-3 games total in a straight sets loss.
     
  44. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    A 5.0 playing against a 4.0 is expected to have a score of 6-0,6-0, however you then have to take into account alot of factors. Could be playstyle, sun, wind and alot of other stuff. However when your base expectation is that you will beat someone 6-0, 6-0 to me it means that there are not enough factors (other than something like a broken leg) that will turn that score into a loss. It may be much closer than 0 and 0 but the 5.0 is still going to win.

    btw - you can play in 4.5 sectionals and next year be a 5.0B, the B only means you went to a championship not what level you went at.
     
  45. J_R_B

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    Yes, I know that. That's why I specifically said he was 5.0B from playing in 5.0 sectionals, not 4.5 playoffs.
     
  46. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    First off, sounds like a great experience, enjoyable match, and good memories, so congrats.

    But, sorry to burst your bubble, I highly doubt the 5.0 was going full out in the 2nd set. Not saying he was conciously taking it easy on you or fooling around - maybe he just lost focus after an easy 1st set and had a hard time regaining his focus. Obviously I wasn't there and you were, but a top 5.0 (as he would be considering he was at 5.0 sectionals) is just not going to drop that many games to a 4.0C, no matter how good the 4.0C, if the 5.0 is playing at his true level.

    Let me ask this question: What do you feel was the difference between the 1st set and the 2nd set, considering you won only 1 game in the 1st but 6 in the 2nd? Do you really feel like your level picked up that much, while his was pretty constant? Or do you think it's possible that his level dropped off some?
     
  47. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I definitely radically adjusted my game. In the first set, I played like I would against a 4.0, which is that hitting a safe shot deep in the middle of the court is never a bad play. After watching 7 games of a parade of winners hit past me on those "safe" balls, I decided that I needed to just hit out and not worry about errors and see what happened. I ended up playing the set of my life. I made a lot of errors (as expected), but I was able to pressure him into errors as well. I was down a break early, but broke back at 4-3 and it was game on from there.

    I'm sure he was playing "full out" at least in terms of effort. There's no reason in the semis of a tournament to let up and risk playing 2 1/2 hours in 90* heat while watching your opponent breeze through in 45 mins on the next court. Whether he was playing well or not, I don't know, but I'd suspect he'd probably tell you it wasn't his best day on the court. I don't know if his level "dropped off" in the second set. He definitely didn't hit as many winners and made more errors, but that was because of what I did (and I actually made more errors in the second as well). He played near flawlessly in the first, but I didn't make him work for it, either, so I don't know if he was playing well or just not challenged enough by my game in that set.
     
  48. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    Now isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.

    You and a few others keep assuming that I'm a youngster, but I don't care.

    You clearly can't read just like the older posters others on here. Wisdom does not come with age.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  49. mightyrick

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    I disagree. A 5.0 playing full effort will double-bagel a 4.0 at full effort.

    That being said, if any player at any level is having some sort of external issues, causing them to be way off their game -- especially health issues or mental issues -- they can lose to anybody. But in this kind of a situation, it isn't "full effort".

    Your 5.0 wasn't playing at anything near normal capacity. Otherwise, you would have gotten completely destroyed. A 5.0 that is on their game does not make errors like that. They don't double fault. They don't let 4.0 level forehands go by them.

    Your experience is the extreme exception and not the rule. Don't make the mistake of making the exception the norm.

    In the normal situation, a 5.0 will double-bagel a 4.0. That's just the way it is.
     
  50. TennisDawg

    TennisDawg Semi-Pro

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    Okay, thanks. Now, someone just posted the letter B after a rating. Happen to know what a 3.5B means?
     

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