3-Strike Rule and DQed mid-season...

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by dmarcen, Mar 24, 2010.

  1. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    You get strikes by beating players at the top of the level by a sufficient score to push your dynamic rating well out of level. It is quite possible that your teammate got three strikes from beating benchmark players - I'm just saying that beating a benchmark doesn't guarantee you a strike.

    I would argue, though, that a self rated player winning matches at state championships probably self rated at too low a level. With that in mind, a DQ can be appropriate. I was on a team a few years ago with several self rated players. Two were DQ'd during the seasaon - and they should have been.
     
    #51
  2. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Well thats the problem I have USTA. See what you are telling me now is not what she said. She said it was a direct result of him beating "bench mark" players. We had a two day discussion about bench mark and how you got strikes. I'll never forget that. I remember asking her what made the guy benchmark(because he was so awful). She said because he was on a State team the year before. So it didn't matter that he got his @$$ whipped the year before. He happen to be on the team that won the city championship. Our player was a self rated player. We all were or about 9 of the 14 guys were. We had been playing tennis less than 4 months when we put this team together or the 9 had been playing that long. I have to say it was probably one of the greatest 3.0 teams ever assembled in USTA.lol We were athletes that had came from playing basketball, football and me(baseball). We had like 8 guys that we could put on singles and doubles courts and pull out wins.lol I remember clearly being the best singles player and I swear I never played singles one time.lol Man those were the days. :) Knowing what I know now, we made the right decision because only one of two things were going to happen going out there. We were going to lose 2 or 3 or more players or we were just going to get our @$$es thumped as we were bound to run into some 4.0's as we did at State. Those were the few losses we did take. :) How Archie Bunker say it..."thooooose weeerrrre the daaaaaaayyyyyyyyys"lol
     
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  3. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Hahahaha. You've been whining like my 3 year old since the start of this discussion.
     
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  4. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for proving my point again.

    So let me get this straight. You're on a team full of self rated players that's kicking everyone's butt for the majority of the regular season to the extent that every match is 4-1, and 5-0, and even when a player gets DQ'ed you still have it in the bag.

    I doubt anyone feels sorry for you, clearly you stuck yourselves at the wrong level to begin with. You deserve to get DQ'ed in that case. (and at least the OP's situation is a bit more interesting then that.....)

    Do you want to talk about wasting money? You guys spent money for an entire season (usually a local season takes months) where you likely didnt have too many competitive matches all so you can win a pen or a self paid trip somewhere....

    I dont know how anyone can feel sorry for you about that because it seems like your whole being at that level was a waste of money for you anyway.

    You're just crying because you would of eventually met someone who is even more out of level, face it.... It didnt work for YOU so that's why you're crying.... Clearly you are an emotional guy and you are not able to see things objectively enough to see that.

    And as far as tournaments, those are sometimes no better value. You sometimes meet way more self rated players in tournaments then leagues, and in some areas tournaments do not even generate a rating.

    So you're paying $30-$40-$50-$60 to show up, play some unknown guy that just decided to play at your level, and you lose and then you go home. There is hardly any value to that.

    Im sure it's just good for YOU because you can hide out at whatever level you're trying to play down at, get a bunch of easy matches and play for the finals or whatever....
     
    #54
  5. Islandtennis

    Islandtennis Rookie

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    No. Here's a scenario, You could have lost to everyone in Chat and your team still made it to districts (states) and you play the guy from Nashville. How you do against him not only affects your rating, it also effects everyone in Chat that you played and the people they played. If he in turn goes to Sectionals, how he does against a guy from NC affects you and the other people you played in Chatt. Benchmarks are not better or worse than anyone (their teams are, but not them). They are just away to try and make a 3.5 in Chatt be close to a 3.5 in LA in ability.
     
    #55
  6. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Your 3 year old huh...How bout you let Javier zip his pants up. He's a big boy and doesn't need any cheerleaders or groupies.
     
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  7. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    See you are making quite a few assumptions. First of all you need to reread. 9 of the 14 guys had never even swung a raquet 4 months prior. I said we won 4-1 and 5-0. I never said anything about the matches not being competitive. Me and my partner played 4 three set tie breakers and won them all. quite a few matches went to 3 set tiebreakers. We at the time knew nothing about "throttling down" or none of this other nonsense that goes on. So that is total bs on your part.

    As far as the tournaments that I attend. O you couldn't be further from the truth. Most of the people that attend do know one another. The tournaments are 220 or 230 strong in some cases and a minimum of a 100 most of the time. USTA has tried to control these with their power through software but that's another story :). I'll whine about that in another thread and let you tell me how wonderful they are by trying to corner everybody. :) You win some and you lose some. You are just on USTA's strap for whatever reason. Maybe they have you one of those little USTA certified polo knit shirts or some ****, but you obviously are taking it personal about what what I'm saying about USTA and that's cool. The young guy is armed with information now. I bet in two years he comes back and says I told him more of the truth than that bs you are spewing. I have nothing to gain by telling him what I'm saying. I'm just trying to keep him from continueing to get his @$$ burned by listening to nonsense.
     
    #57
  8. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Okay...I understand this much now can you give me a specific example and tell me how it would work going all the way to sectionals? Just a what if scenario and how you think it plays out. What are you are saying is making some sense. I just need to see it. Thanks to for sticking with the issue. It's much easier to learn something if someone is giving you specific examples rather than throwing darts. I can do that with the best of them but I'd just assume learn something if I can. So please....continue<chatt gets popcorn and sits back and watches and listens> :)
     
    #58
  9. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    See it's all about the playoffs with you.

    If anything it's people like you that ruin it for everyone else....

    "achieved anything"? What do you acheive? A pen and a self paid trip (and a big entry fee) to somewhere?

    Give me a break. So what if someone never plays a state match? An ENTIRE TEAM needs to do well to accomplish that, it doesnt mean that any of it's players are not necessarily out of level...

    Yes it's true, people cheat. Officials in the USTA even cheat. And that's always going to be the case in any league or tournament.

    But it's people like you that get upset about it (and it sounds like some of you even cheat just because "everyone does it"), that makes it much more of a widespread issue.

    Because apparently the only reason you even play is to win some championship or a trophy. It's not for the enjoyment of playing tennis, if somehow you can win, then you cry and run away and then complain about it.
     
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  10. Islandtennis

    Islandtennis Rookie

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    I'll try with generalities. Lets assume that you are 3.5. Chat has a bunch of really strong 3.5's that are rated 3.3 to 3.4. You play them and lose during the season, but your team advances to state. You end up a dynamic rating of 3.2 at the end of the season. You play a guy from Nashville thats a 3.3 and barely lose. The Nashville guy goes to sectionals a totally destroys a guy 1,1 from Raleigh who has a 3.55 dynamic (he is set to be bumped at year end). As the dynamics are calculated back the local guys the Nashville guy played are adjusted up, but not as much as are you and the Chatt guys you played. The guys our Raleigh guy played during the season have a slight downward adjustment. So their rating actually went down because they played a benchmark guy.

    This is a generalization of the algorithm but basically what the benchmarks attempt to do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2010
    #60
  11. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    So let me get this straight. You think I'm supposed to play some 60 bucks in total fees and not expect to be able to compete. No you got it all wrong dude. You are right. I expect to be able to compete. I don't think that's asking too much. If I won't to go out and get my @$$ ripped up into streds, I don't need to pay USTA to do that. I always play a level above where I am and anyone here will tell you that..."except" when I'm playing USTA. When the day comes where you drop hotel money, league money and gas money and drive 2 or 3 hours to play say 4.5 with a 4.0 rating, then you come back and talk to me. Trust me when I tell you that I'm not cheating. I don't have the skill level to "throttle down". I go all out to bust your @$$. I can't turn on and turn off. I'm currently in a 4.5 league here where I have to play 35 bucks for 10 matches plus playoffs if I finish in the top 4. I think that's fair and I have a 4.0 rating. So it's not about whether or not I'm wanting to compete. I'm just not going to be a damn fool. Maybe you are rolling in the dough and don't mind riding out 6 hours to sectionals to get your @$$ handed to you and I don't either but when I do it needs to be a case where I played like ****...not a case where I never had a chance when I stepped on the court. Only a damn fool or someone with a lot of money and time on their hand would do that.
     
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  12. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    You need to be a USTA official if you aren't one already. That's the best answer I've gotten in 7 years. Where did you get your info from? I'm still not crazy about it but at least that's an answer for a change instead of the other nonsense I've been reading and hearing.
     
    #62
  13. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    That's rich.

    You have no regard for any of your opponents as you guys stomp on them all for the entire local season and rob them of any chance of taking first or gaining the experience of a free pen or a self paid trip somewhere....

    But boo hoo, heaven forbid that you actually have to REALLY compete at 4.5 where "oh my god!!!", you might lose and might not have a chance of going to the playoffs..... (who cares if you do it outside of USTA, it doesnt mean you have some sort of god given "right" to stay at 4.0)

    It's the same sob story, all you care about is yourself, and you wasted the entire local season just for a shot at some playoffs or whatever.....

    I think you have a screwed up and selfish idea of what "competing" means.
     
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  14. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    Ok, so I only skimmed this thread, but I'm curious. I've never played in a USTA league, but will be this summer. Currently, I've played in our local inter-club league (about 11 local clubs that compete). I've played 4.0 for a few years, and starting subbing up to the 4.5 leagues as well. I was about an average 4.0 when I started, but lately I am competing well on the top courts in 4.0

    The USTA leagues are supposedly tougher than the local self-rated ones. The USTA league is 4.0. I would like to just play my game, and I will, but how many times can I win before getting DQ'd? I'm not exactly grasping this 3-strike rule.

    For instance, in our local interclub, I am 7-4 in 4.0 doubles, 6-3 in 4.0 singles, and 3-4 in subbing up to 4.5 singles. If this were USTA would I be DQ'd from 4.0?
     
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  15. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    There is no way to know from that, it doesnt go by wins and losses, it goes by your game difference compared to your opponent's exact rating.

    (and a rolling average of all those results)

    That's what irks a lot of people. In the existing system it's feasible that you could be the same level as someone, have a tough competitive close match but never win. Maybe the other person is just better at closing out the match then you....

    But some people do not understand the merits of that because they only think in terms of wins and loses.
     
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  16. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    I see. I guess I'll just show up and play tennis, and see what the computer does, heh. I can see why people get irked, as there are so many loopholes, you could face a sandbagger who needs to throw a match, then that messes up your rating, or you have a bad day or great day, and all that.

    I'm just hoping for good competition, win or lose. Now, if the captain starts telling me I need to win this or lose that because of ratings or whatever, I'm out of there.
     
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  17. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    the "system" seems about as user friendly as the USTA website.

    hard to navigate with much success...
     
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  18. herrburgess

    herrburgess Rookie

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    I think my team may have played yours in the finals at States. I have to say I'm not surprised that you got bumped to 3.5. I am a bit surprised, however, that your doubles partner from States has not yet gotten bumped! It seems the USTA is extending its practice of "keeping the playing field level;" a self-rated 2.0 got triple bumped to 3.5 this spring in our league. Good luck at 3.5.
     
    #68
  19. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    No, you don't get it. I haven't played on any team that stomped anyone in the ground. I played on a team that happen to be the best the year we won city and state. Someone had to be the best why not us. I don't think winning matches in 3rd set tiebreaks is stomping anyone in the ground. We just came out on the better end of the stick that year. The following year we took much of the same team and we lost in the finals. That was 3.0 and some 7 years ago. The 4.0 team I'm on now took @$$whipping after @$$whipping the last 4 years. All those guys are gone now. So maybe you are talking about the guys that were kicking our @$$. Maybe it's time for us to get a chance at a self payed trip(noooot...the state is here in Chatt this year. :) ) So I think we are the ones you are talking about being given a chance. We've paid USTA good money the last 4 years to take @$$whippings...yea...I don't have a problem with dishing out a few @$$ whippings before we go to 4.5. That's Karma and it's only fair. What is your problem with that? So I guess you think after us taking all the whippings we did the last 4 years...we should just jump right into the 4.5 league with the same guys that were kicking us in at 4.0....no you have a serious lack of understanding of how things should work. You take your whippings but when it's your turn to dish them out...then so be it. It's a cycle and we are on the up swing of it now and I think we should enjoy it after what we've been through the last 4 years. You can call it what you wish...I say take your self righteous @$$ and play 5.5 or 4 levels above your level and then come talk to me.

    Peace,

    Chatt_town
     
    #69
  20. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    In other Words JT....it's bs. Just know that you will get strikes for beating any bench mark players that are in your league. Once you have 3 you are gone if you are a newly self rated player. So in other words, you are basically paying money to play guys that you shouldn't be beating if they are bench mark. I do somewhat understand what they are trying to do but at the same time I've heard of people with a computer generated rating having the same thing done to them and that is where I have a problem with the system.
     
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  21. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Computer rated players do not get DQ'ed anymore as of last year.

    Stop whining and get your facts straight. And it's been 11 days already, get over yourself......
     
    #71
  22. film1

    film1 Semi-Pro

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    I would not stress too much about it.
     
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  23. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    You are one to talk about getting facts straight. You have no clue as to what you are talking about. You are making all kinds of ass-sumptions about me and you really don't know what you are talking about. The bottom line is they horse f'ked people for years with that silly rule so you need to get off their nutz and call it what it is and don't leave the guy in the dark. I see you responded to this one...what about the one above it?
     
    #73
  24. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    I wouldn't either....just know what you are getting yourself into and keep asking questions and above all...pay attention to what's going on around you with the league in general.

    Peace,

    Chatt_town
     
    #74
  25. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Well you're right, it maybe unfortunate for someone if they don't know they have two strikes.

    However you can thank all the people who gamed the system all these years and cheated for why they have to hide everything.

    Why dont you read your own posts in this thread, you're all over the map.

    Maybe you had some good points, but foaming at the mouth and getting all excited just because it didnt happen to work for you is generally unproductive and it makes you look like a whiner.

    You're the one who's saying you won every match 4-1 or 5-0 with people that never swung a racquet before, in the 4.0 league!!! That kind of doesnt make any sense, but it's a good indicator that you easily made it thru the local league.
     
    #75
  26. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    Whether someone is a benchmark has nothing to do with whether you get strikes by beating them...
     
    #76
  27. amarone

    amarone Semi-Pro

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    As others have said, this is simply not true. A benchmark player is someone who has progressed to a Championship. Period. Now, because they have made the playoffs, on average a benchmark player will probably be stronger than your average player, and therefore by beating one you are more likely to get a strike. But that's as far as it goes.

    I was a benchmark player after one season in which I didn't win a match. I was probably as poor a 4.0 as you can be, but I had that 'B' against my name.
     
    #77
  28. Matt H.

    Matt H. Professional

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    i'm late to the party, but here's a tip:

    if you're a self-rated player, do *NOT* go out and double bagel your opponent in the first match you play. You immediately put the target on your back with the local coordinator and you most definitely get a strike right out of the gate.
     
    #78
  29. amarone

    amarone Semi-Pro

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    The local coordinator has nothing whatsoever to do with it, but you are correct that winning the first match big is damaging. That is because it can immediately raise your DNTRP above the strike threshold and you could stay there even with relatively moderate results in your next two matches, thereby getting DQed. On the other hand, starting with two moderate results followed by a big win may give you just one strike.
     
    #79
  30. netman

    netman Hall of Fame

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    Spoken by a true cheater. If you are going to cheat, don't be so d@#n obvious. :)
     
    #80
  31. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    Now here is a related question ... the USTA does consider a 6-1,6-0 beating in your rating but does not consider a 6-0, 6-0 score when calculating your rating. I assume that there is no way to know how much better you are than someone if the score is a double bagel.

    So the question is will the USTA consider a double bagel for strikes even if the various web sites say they do not consider these scores for the dynamic rating?
     
    #81
  32. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Maybe you need to reread and pay attention. We won state at a 3.0 level in 2003. This is 2010. I've progressed some. I've been in a 4.0 league for the last 3 years. This is my fourth. Now...to your other point. When was the last time you heard of USTA bumping me for what you did on your court? What you are saying doesn't even make sense. You are taking a team winning 4-1 or 5-0 and trying to make it something that is not. I have told you on 3 different occassions that those matches were mostly won in 3rd set tiebreakers. What don't you understand about that? If we win 3 matches in third set tiebreaks that is hardly dominating as you are insinuating. Again, this was all at the 3.0 level and about 9 of the 14 guys had never played competitive tennis. We didn't even know what USTA was until the older guy who got all of us to play told us about it. The rest is history. So "I" have spent the last 3 years playing 4.0 against many guys that appealed down to 4.0 where we were losing 4-1 and 5-0 and it took them 3 years to get them up. My point to you is why should we that have been taking beatings the last 4 years be allowed to win some like everyone else? I hope you truly get this one. If you don't and resort to personally attacking me again without paying attention to what you are responding to, I'll just let you be as you are proving that you just want to ***** and not discuss the issues.

    Peace,

    Chatt_town
     
    #82
  33. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    It might not now. I surely did in 2003. That's specifically why we didn't go to sectionals. That USTA official told us over and over that our teammate had beaten 3 benchmark players and that's exactly how he got his 3 strikes. 2 of the wins were against the same player locally. She also told us that he was bench mark because he "played" at the state level the year before. Nevermind the fact that he wasn't worth a damn and never won a match. He was on the team and therefore at the time he was bench mark. So let me ask this since we seem to have some USTA gurus here. So what's the deal with the USTA sanctioned tourneys? Are they or are they not putting those matches toward your rating. I heard they stopped because people were entering and losing matches 0 and 0 to get their ratings lowered. I heard they stopped counting those matches. What's the deal?

    Peace,

    Chatt_town
     
    #83
  34. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    well what day and what hour did it stop because I've seen in the last two years a few people get bumped right in the middle of the season with "computer generated" ratings and it had to do more with the coordinator than anything. So I really don't want to hear that the coordinator can't get some things done because it happens. It may not be the norm but it happens. That's the problem I have with USTA. I just want some damn consistency and I don't think that's asking to much. You all keep saying this and that is not the case but the reality of the situation is it is the case in some cases and needs to stop. lets post some rules and everyone play by the same rules.

    Peace,

    Chatt_town
     
    #84
  35. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Whether to count tournament matches in a person's NTRP rating is left to the individual sections. Some do, some don't.
     
    #85
  36. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Dude, learn how to use a paragraphs.

    Why are you even harping on this still? We talked about this weeks ago and you're still steaming about it now?

    Why dont you get a sign and march around and protest if you're so angry...

    Who cares about all your other points? This thread is about some guy that DQ'ed who happened to have a mixed rating.

    So here comes you not really providing any insight, but just saying how they should "be pissed" becuase they were DQ'ed and how it's "unfair".

    You havent been in danger of getting DQ'ed for years (computer rated players cant get DQ'ed anymore).

    In 2003 whether it was long ago or not, you had a bunch of self rated players. Some of them got DQ'ed (good). That's just the way it goes, perhaps they shouldnt of self rated that low.
     
    #86
  37. amarone

    amarone Semi-Pro

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    How do you know that it was "to do more with the coordinator"? I know several coordinators and former coordinators, and regional directors, going back nearly 10 years, and they are all adamant that they do not have this power.

    A coordinator can raise a self-rate grievance, but only against a self-rated player. And even then the decision is not made by the coordinator, but by the self-rate grievance committee at section level.
     
    #87
  38. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    f'k that. I'm talking about it now. Who the hell are you? You have proven that you know nothing about anything and now you are going to try and tell me how to write. Man please. This isn't an English class. Get over or get out. This thread was about getting DQ'ed and I unlike yourself provided him with reality. You are on here trying to hold USTA's strap and not providing any info. If it was discussed and you are tired of talking about it, stfu.

    Peace,

    Chatt_town
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2010
    #88
  39. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Well let me give you just one example and you tell me what it sounds like. This just happened last year is why I don't believe any of the nonsense of "it can never happen". A woman that was playing with our mixed team as a 3.0 was asked by a coordinator what kind of rating she had. The girl replied that she had a 3.0 rating, the coordinator says to her "well we both know that's not correct right?". That was the end of that conversation. Well about 3 days later the girl gets a email stating that she had been bumped to 3.5. I was standing there and It was right in the middle of mixed season and screwed up our team to some degree. Now some of you may say it was a big coincidence. My common sense tells me otherwise.

    Peace,

    Chatt_town
     
    #89
  40. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    You dont mention if you know if she was self rated or not.
     
    #90
  41. Matt H.

    Matt H. Professional

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    just saw this. LMAO.


    I don't consider myself a cheater. I'm a benchmark 4.0. I'm legit. :D
     
    #91
  42. netman

    netman Hall of Fame

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    At least drop one game. :)
     
    #92
  43. decades

    decades Guest

    i hope you do well in 3.5
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2010
    #93
  44. Ucantplay2much

    Ucantplay2much Rookie

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    Okay, I'm still a little confused. I have a T rating of 3.0 from last year (went 1-3 in tournaments). I play a lot and took lessons all winter and made a good bit of improvement and joined a 3.0 league team this year. Our captain seems to think I am risk of getting DQ'd. If I get bumped up during our leagues, do we forfeit my wins or do I just get moved up?
     
    #94
  45. netman

    netman Hall of Fame

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    If you are carrying a rating from the USTA and they move you up, your team won't forfeit your wins. I'm still not clear on whether you will get to continue to compete at that level.

    The DQ rule was implemented to deal with the folks abusing the self-rating system.
     
    #95
  46. Ucantplay2much

    Ucantplay2much Rookie

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    Thanks! I don't have a problem with being bumped up and not getting to continue playing 3.0 if I need to be bumped. I just want to make sure we won't have to forfeit anything if I do. Besides, I STILL haven't actually won anything, this is just based on what people perceive my game to be.
     
    #96
  47. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    It depends on the section. A "T" rating is not protected so you CAN be DQ'd. Whether all of your previous matches are forfeited is a section decision.
     
    #97
  48. Ucantplay2much

    Ucantplay2much Rookie

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    Niiiiice. Oh well. I'll see how the first matches go. Am I correct in assuming that if I voluntarily move up before being DQ'd that they wouldn't be forfeited?
     
    #98
  49. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    If you start playing at 3.5, you are even more likely to get DQ'd from 3.0 to 3.5. This would forfeit your 3.0 matches (in most sections).
     
    #99
  50. netman

    netman Hall of Fame

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    Fascinating. So each section has different rules on DQs? That opens a whole new can of worms in regard to sections manipulating (or not) ratings so their teams have good showings at national events. I hope this is not true. I thought the whole point of the computer rating system was to insure consistency across the entire U.S. tennis population.

    -k-
     

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