3 years later: mxmx serve part2

[mxmx]

Hi guys

Its been a while. 3 years later I decided to upload some new videos of my serve. I would appreciate you guys' feedback, especially regarding to what I served like 3 years ago

1) To deuce court: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO9muF1bw-E
2) To ad court: https://youtu.be/bY8YtP0-x20
3) Splinter Cell Angle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRUSrpt6KMU
4) Need for Speed Angle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-edVjRhQrSw

The old thread of my serve 3 years ago:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/archive/index.php/t-446421.html

 

[Cobaine]

Looks good, but you could use more upper body rotation.

Compare yourself to Fed and you'll see what I mean:

https://youtu.be/oWBWibFfN4c?t=2m45s

 

[mxmx]

thanks man...yep, if only everyone could serve like Federer hehe. Do you prefer the pin point stance or the platform stance?

 

[mbm0912]

Heck of a nice serve, man! Really like the racquet drop. Only thing I may play with would be adding more bend to the serving arm after contact, which would probably come naturally by keeping a loose whipping motion.

 

[Aretium]

thanks man...yep, if only everyone could serve like Federer hehe. Do you prefer the pin point stance or the platform stance?

He means your body needs to be facing the side fence or even more so. At the moment, your serve is all arm and legs. Get a bit more side on and you will find some more pace.

 

[Cobaine]

He means your body needs to be facing the side fence or even more so. At the moment, your serve is all arm and legs. Get a bit more side on and you will find some more pace.

This is correct.

With regard to stance, either works, honestly. If I were teaching a beginner, I'd teach platform, since it has less movement to it, and is one less thing to screw up.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Low frame rate and too much motion blur.

With a basic high speed video camera, like the Canon Powershot 110HS, costing about $80 used, life is too short to keep missing what is happening in the faster parts of your serve.

What are your thoughts about high speed video?

What determines the speed of the serve is the final racket head acceleration to impact. This occurs over the last 25 or 30 milliseconds before impact in a high level serve. Your video camera, if 30 fps, takes one frame every 33 milliseconds. It is not capable of showing the motion of the most important part of your serve.

Besides the low frame rate, the motion blur in your video is so large that the racket cannot be seen at impact. The side view is also important and the racket will have even more motion blur from the side. Direct sunlight would improve the motion blur to some degree. Your camera is useless, and maybe misleading, for the fastest, most important part of the serve.

I posted a very low cost camera with 240 fps and a fast shutter speed for videoing the serve. It can show the fastest details of the serve leading to impact.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=484212&highlight=black+friday+sale+camera

 

[shindemac]

thanks man...yep, if only everyone could serve like Federer hehe. Do you prefer the pin point stance or the platform stance?

Platform for stability. Pin point for power. I use a mix for both power and stability. You could say a narrow platform or wide pinpoint.

 

[mxmx]

Heck of a nice serve, man! Really like the racquet drop. Only thing I may play with would be adding more bend to the serving arm after contact, which would probably come naturally by keeping a loose whipping motion.

this is something I have never considered technique wise..thank you

 

[mxmx]

He means your body needs to be facing the side fence or even more so. At the moment, your serve is all arm and legs. Get a bit more side on and you will find some more pace.

so in other words I have to rotate the body more before landing on the front foot correct? An extreme of this would be McEnroe who faces the back fence right?

 

[mxmx]

Low frame rate and too much motion blur.

With a basic high speed video camera, like the Canon Powershot 110HS, costing about $80 used, life is too short to keep missing what is happening in the faster parts of your serve.

What are your thoughts about high speed video?

I just spent money on a Canon Ixus 145 for something else. It has supposed hd film capturing but as for the framerate I have no clue. I could not see any settings regarding that. I was disappointed when I saw the lowish framerate footage.

I tend to contact the ball near to the edge of the frame or above the sweetspot...so I may be early on contact....

 

[mxmx]

Platform for stability. Pin point for power. I use a mix for both power and stability. You could say a narrow platform or wide pinpoint.

I was uncertain about this...but I like the idea of a narrow platform stance. My balance aint too bad so I should be able to get away with a narrower stance...

 

[NLBwell]

Can't tell much from those angles other than any left-right problems. Toss is in a good position, little bit of leg going off to the right, but not really losing a whole lot of energy from that, looks like almost all of your energy is forward into the ball.
Would like to see a decent view where I could look at things like hip position, knee position, body twist, racket drop and path, etc.

 

[Chas Tennis]

.........................................

I tend to contact the ball near to the edge of the frame or above the sweetspot...so I may be early on contact....

On the serve, contacting the ball farther away from the handle increases the forward string speed. So impacting the ball "above the sweetspot" is a plus. Most high level serves are impacted in the half of the racket toward the top edge, you can check it in impact high speed videos.

You can view a high level serve as both a swing and a rotation from ISR. To figure how much extra string speed occurs because of hitting toward the top of the racket you have to know how far out from the rotation axis the ball impact is. For the 'swinging' part of the stroke there is more than one center to the 'swing', wrist, shoulder, Somersault. The rotation axis for the ISR is through the center of the upper arm, you can see how far out the impact is in videos.

See Rh below and compare this high hit to dead center hit of ball. The near straight arm is rotating from internal shoulder rotation.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=361610

 

[NLBwell]

On the serve contacting the ball farther away from the handle increases the forward string speed. So impacting the ball "above the sweetspot" is a plus. Most high level sreves are impacted in the half of the racket toward the top edge, you can check it in impact videos.

This is one of the reasons Mid rackets are better for serving than larger-headed rackets. The sweetspot is farther from the hand (more linear speed with change in angle).

 

[mxmx]

On the serve contacting the ball farther away from the handle increases the forward string speed. So impacting the ball "above the sweetspot" is a plus. Most high level sreves are impacted in the half of the racket toward the top edge, you can check it in impact videos.

You can view a high level serve as both a swing and a rotation from ISR. To figure how much extra string speed occurs because of hitting toward the top of the racket you have to know how far out from the rotation axis the ball impact is. For the 'swinging' part of the stroke there is more than one center to the 'swing', wrist, shoulder, Somersault. The rotation axis for the ISR is through the upper arm, you can see how far out the impact is in videos.

toly 2010

ps. my camera is a ixus 155 not 145

I agree with higher on the stringbed is more power....but too close to the frame should be a bad thing right?

 

[mxmx]

This is one of the reasons Mid rackets are better for serving than larger-headed rackets. The sweetspot is farther from the hand (more linear speed with change in angle).

I am currently on two 100sq inches leaded wilson blx surge's...one a bit lighter than the other.
If it was up to me I'd have wilson blades...

Would you say there is any significance if a tennis ball goes through a standard fence? It happened twice in one vid and once in another...some with new tennis balls. Does a serve need a certain speed to do that? I would assume our back fence is the standard distance it should be...

 

[mxmx]

... Toss is in a good position, little bit of leg going off to the right, but not really losing a whole lot of energy from that, looks like almost all of your energy is forward into the ball.

I have found out of almost everything, the ball toss to be the most important thing for me....it can be the difference between a good serve and a terrible serve. The only way I have reached my best paced serves were with a real good ball toss where I had perfect timing. Its a pity that one never can serve the same when taking videos as one would in other situations such as a match...but at least the vids gives me better insight to the issues on my serve...wish I could give more leg bend..

 

[NLBwell]

Would you say there is any significance if a tennis ball goes through a standard fence? It happened twice in one vid and once in another...some with new tennis balls. Does a serve need a certain speed to do that? I would assume our back fence is the standard distance it should be...

Some significance. It has to be a pretty good serve to begin with to have enough velocity to get through. Other than that, it is pretty much a random placement of ball against the fence and maybe how the spin lines up.

 

[mxmx]

Some significance. It has to be a pretty good serve to begin with to have enough velocity to get through. Other than that, it is pretty much a random placement of ball against the fence and maybe how the spin lines up.

well...after a tournament I played a few days ago and seeing how the guys served there, I do not feel very good about my serve. I feel the modern way of serving is starting to change. I think more and more people are starting to serve more loopier power spin serves like Nadal instead of flatter serves like lets say Michael Stich...

What I also realised is that the type of balls matter...we played with low pressure balls which totally neutralised my flat serves and the guys with Nadal type serves most certainly benefitted. This is not the first tournament I've played that this happened. If this continues, I will have to change the style of my serves.

 

[NLBwell]

Don't give up on your big serve. It is a strength and a useful weapon. Adding a serve with more/different spin would be great. The best servers hit a variety of serves - to keep opponents guessing, and also to adjust to conditions.
My best serve is a big kick serve, but if the court is low-bouncing, maybe it's cool and damp and the balls are a bit flat, the serve won't hop much - just kind of sit up in the opponent's strike zone. At that point, I'll start hitting slice serves and use the low bounce to my advantage.

 

[Flatballs]

Great serve. Do you think you might benefit from keeping your left arm up for just a fraction longer?

 

[mxmx]

Don't give up on your big serve. It is a strength and a useful weapon. Adding a serve with more/different spin would be great. The best servers hit a variety of serves - to keep opponents guessing, and also to adjust to conditions.
My best serve is a big kick serve, but if the court is low-bouncing, maybe it's cool and damp and the balls are a bit flat, the serve won't hop much - just kind of sit up in the opponent's strike zone. At that point, I'll start hitting slice serves and use the low bounce to my advantage.

I find it very strange how the video's don't seem to show the variety - I do have variety but its harder to see the difference on the videos than in person. But the variation I will want to improve or get more strength and focus on, is the power kick...or rather a combination between slice and kick. I am using the continental grip for my first serves and a backhand grip for my kick serves. I also use variations for variation on the serve (such as a kick serve action with a first serve grip etc etc.) What I noted at the tournament with the guys with most power, is that they take ages before they toss the ball...and their grip seems to be between a backhand grip and continental grip. I may consider to have a more "strong continental" grip to gain more leverage.

On the vids my serves also seem much slower than in real life (vid 4 gives the best idea of what speed my serve is at)
I served 2nd serves as well and they basically look the same as my first serve - very weird...In person or against opponents it seems far more effective. I think video footage does some weird stuff...

I can totally agree with your comment of the slice serves. At the tournament the low pressure balls seems to work best with slices and kick serves. The balls made a weird popping sound (as if they were flat)...its like they absorbed all my energy. I am guessing that they are trying to slow down the game? I do not mind as long as they are consistent...I don't want to change my serve to be more from flatter to more "Nadal like" only for them to change back to more responsive balls. I once played a tournament with pressure less balls...they're the worst...The top players did however seem to get a lot of pace on their serves and groundies either way (even though some complained about the balls as well). I don't want to complain...I just want consistency with these competitions.

 

[mxmx]

Great serve. Do you think you might benefit from keeping your left arm up for just a fraction longer?

If I am understanding correctly, yes. But do you mean a higher toss or literally keeping the arm up whilst contacting?
I have been trying to have a higher ball toss...but again, when I see the video footage it seems lower than it feels on court and as I'd have liked it to be...

In the movie "wimbledon" this point was discussed lol...guess I will have to watch that movie again soon

Anyone knows what happened to Leed?

 

[LeeD]

Looks good, certainly good enough for most 4.5 level tennis.
Seems you don't swing at your full speed. Were you holding back for more percentage?
As mentioned, very little rotation, but very good leg drive into court, maybe a little less leg drive upwards.
Nice you show a variety of placements, but not necessarily your full repetoire of serve styles (spins).
I"m getting too old to critique good serves anymore.

 

[mxmx]

Thank you Leed. I know this is off topic...but these days I am struggling more to cope with the groundstroke pace of superior players. I also struggle to generate enough pace on my groundies. My serve and doubles play seems to be the only thing close on par...woman hit better backhands than me. On my forehand there is something wrong on my follow through after contact which i would describe as this:
Contact with level face>close face after contact>followthrough with open face

The correct way should be:
Contact with level face>close face after contact>followthrough with closed face

My only guess is that the ball is creating recoil flex and twist in my hand so that the face is not consistently closed. Perhaps reaching more forward will prevent this from happening.

 

[heninfan99]

did you ever find out the FPS of your camera?

Thank you Leed. I know this is off topic...but these days I am struggling more to cope with the groundstroke pace of superior players. I also struggle to generate enough pace on my groundies. My serve and doubles play seems to be the only thing close on par...woman hit better backhands than me. On my forehand there is something wrong on my follow through after contact which i would describe as this:
Contact with level face>close face after contact>followthrough with open face

The correct way should be:
Contact with level face>close face after contact>followthrough with closed face

My only guess is that the ball is creating recoil flex and twist in my hand so that the face is not consistently closed. Perhaps reaching more forward will prevent this from happening.

 

[mxmx]

Strange that it has diff framerates....
But i think its 25-30fps:
4:3 - (L) 4608 x 3456, (M1) 3264 x 2448, (M2) 2048 x 1536, (S) 640 x 480, (W) 4608 x 2592
Resize in playback (M2, S)
Compression Fine
Movies (HD) 1280 x 720, 25 fps, (L) 640 x 480, 30 fps
Miniature Effect (HD) 5fps, 2.5fps, 1.25 fps
Miniature Effect (L) 6fps, 3fps, 1.5 fps

 

[GuyClinch]

Platform for stability. Pin point for power. I use a mix for both power and stability. You could say a narrow platform or wide pinpoint.

Kinda true. But its more subtle then that. Pinpoint makes it easier to tap into your hip flexor. A narrow platform makes it easier to get a lot of upward thrust - but its harder to use the flexor muscle to straighten out.. I don't know of any advantage of McEnroe style wide platform..

 

[shindemac]

Kinda true. But its more subtle then that. Pinpoint makes it easier to tap into your hip flexor. A narrow platform makes it easier to get a lot of upward thrust - but its harder to use the flexor muscle to straighten out.. I don't know of any advantage of McEnroe style wide platform..

True dat. But this nuance will explode people's tiny minds.

 

[meltphace 6]

Tiny minds? I need a beer...

 

[tennisdad65]

nice first serve. any second serve videos? after all, you are only as good as your second serve

 

[dimkin]

be careful with your lower back -

 

[mxmx]

be careful with your lower back -

Any specific reason?

 

[mxmx]

nice first serve. any second serve videos? after all, you are only as good as your second serve

There are second serves randomly in the mix. It is just strange how much harder it is to see the difference in the videos. It's as if the videos really dampens all aspects...sense of speed and spin (the first person angle vid has more realistic sense of speed though). Heck, it even feels like I bend my legs more than it shows on the vids...

My second serve goes in about 80-90%. Most players struggle with them...good players really bash me...I suppose I should go for a little more even if it sacrifices %
(The reason there are fewer 2nd serves in the vids are due to the fact that my first serve needs more work...)

 

[LeeD]

Practicing 2nd serves is no fun, but it is about 66% of your service game, so it's a necessity.
While a first serve can garner you outright winners and also weak returns, that second serve can do that, but more often than not, give you a defensive hopeful get, a lunging attempt at a lob, or get you handcuffed.
Practice the 2nd serve about twice as often as you practice a first serve.
That second serve needs to go in at least 95%, and be able to be placed in forehand, backhand, and into the body for the twist, the topspin, and also the top/slice 2nd serves.

 

[mxmx]

Practicing 2nd serves is no fun, but it is about 66% of your service game, so it's a necessity.
While a first serve can garner you outright winners and also weak returns, that second serve can do that, but more often than not, give you a defensive hopeful get, a lunging attempt at a lob, or get you handcuffed.
Practice the 2nd serve about twice as often as you practice a first serve.
That second serve needs to go in at least 95%, and be able to be placed in forehand, backhand, and into the body for the twist, the topspin, and also the top/slice 2nd serves.

I played quite an important match this weekend at my club. One of my worst ever. I served one double fault in the first set...cannot remember any other. The problem is definately not my second serve % or accuracy (although power and variation may improve as they are only kick serves). My first serves were not accurate enough.

My problems come with the follow up. My second serve is often good enough to approach the net, but I would make unforced errors on either the volley or first shot. Most people in singles defend my serves but its hard for me to finish points off. Even in rallies I may dominate rallies but really really suck at finishing off. Thus pushers/defensice baseliners are my worst opponents...

I think my overall game approach is way too agressive and its hard for me not to aim for the lines or to play %. I almost quit tennis this weekend...been a long long time since I was so angry losing a match...
There is no question that I perform better against stronger opponents than me and far far worse against weaker ones...

 

[mxmx]

Great serve. Do you think you might benefit from keeping your left arm up for just a fraction longer?

Probably the 5th person who asked me this. So I think this is the first thing I need to look at.

It's been a while since I commented on my serve. My serve has lost some power recently. It has however gained consistency and perhaps placement. Concerning though my loss of power recently...I'm thinking its mental.