4.5C rating

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by naturallight, Mar 1, 2013.

  1. naturallight

    naturallight Rookie

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    Hi, sorry if this is dumb question, but what does the "C" in my 4.5C rating mean? I gather there are also 4.5A and 4.5B ratings. Does this mean I'm at risk of being moved down to 4.0?

    I've only played USTA league for two years. The first year I got thrashed pretty good. Last year I had a winning record, but didn't play in as many matches.

    thanks
     
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  2. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    The letter only denotes how you got the rating:

    A: Appeal
    B: Benchmark (i.e. playoffs)
    C: Computer
    M: Mixed
    S: Self-Rating
    T: Tournament

    This has nothing to do with how high or low you are in the group.
     
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  3. naturallight

    naturallight Rookie

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    ahh, thank you very much, J_R_B
     
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  4. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the following is true:

    Computer rated means you played enough matches previously (usually only in the spring season) that your rating is established by the USTA algorythm. Players who are computer rated are not subject to disqualification (DQ) by strikes.

    Computer rated people are still subject to mid season bumps , or a DQ by a USTA official.
     
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  5. Nellie

    Nellie Hall of Fame

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    Off topic, but I am still trying to figure out the differences between B and C. I understand that B comes from going to playoffs, but I don't know if it has any difference when determining the dynamic rating. You would think that the B type rating is somehow "stickier."
     
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  6. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    A B means you played in the post-season/playoffs and as such have become a Benchmark against which others can have benchmark calculations done.

    The USTA does this in an effort to try to normalize levels across sections by having an extra calculation included in the year-end rating where matches played against B rated players factor in in addition to the regular dynamic rating calculated throughout the year. Effectively, how players perform at local, district, sectional, and national playoffs trickles back down to players at the local level.
     
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  7. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    An NTRP dynamically disqualified player becomes a benchmark too.
     
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  8. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    C rated players are not subject to DQ either dynamically or by grievance.
     
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  9. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    If you mean someone that gets 3 strikes, then that's not true.

    I was a self rated player and only played combo my first year so I carried my self rate into the next year, the next year i played "up" a level and was DQ'd at the lower level but I still had a "S" rating after the DQ (which did not affect me as I didn't play at that level after the first year).
     
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  10. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    My statement was copied and pasted from the USTA website. I can't speak for your situation but everyone else I've known who has been dynamically DQ'ed was then rated as benchmark. How long ago did your situation occur?
     
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  11. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    What happens when you have someone who is 4.5 C but self-rated last year as 4.0 and is now rated 4.5? This person played D1 only 4 years ago and their captain filled out the form for them. Now, I have encountered this player as he is playing more matches and although he is computer rated, it is obvious that his original application was fraudulent.
     
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  12. goober

    goober Legend

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    I actually encountered a very similar situation: a ex D1 player in his mid 20s self rated 4.0. He originally played one season in another section and apparently nobody filed anything over there. When he moved to our section he played only 2 doubles 4.0 matches and some of mixed at various levels. So he flew under the radar. At the end of the year he got 4.0C rating. Then all the sudden he ended on a team that is known for taking out of level players. People researched his background and found he played D1 (low level) and actually won some matches in singles and dubs.

    The response I got from the LC is since he has a C rating nothing could be done. No grievance would even be considered.
     
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  13. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I think you're out of luck, unfortunately. I asked this exact question at the Middle States NJ captain's meeting earlier this month and was told that once a player gets a computer rating, it's considered valid even if the self-rating was fraudulent.

    A couple years ago, we found a player in PA who self-rated 4.0 while playing for a D1 school (which should be min 5.5), but by the time anyone noticed, he was C rated. He's still 4.0. Of course, he's also only a 4.0/borderline 4.5 player playing for a bad D1 school, but nonetheless, he was allowed to stay 3 levels below his self-rating guideline.
     
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  14. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    "A couple years ago, we found a player in PA who self-rated 4.0 while playing for a D1 school (which should be min 5.5), but by the time anyone noticed, he was C rated. He's still 4.0. Of course, he's also only a 4.0/borderline 4.5 player playing for a bad D1 school, but nonetheless, he was allowed to stay 3 levels below his self-rating guideline."

    Maybe I'm way off base here, but how can any kid playing for a D1 school be a 4.0/4.5?? That seems impossible.
     
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  15. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    The team is a very low level D1 team and plays most of its non-conference matches against D2 and D3 teams. He was playing regularly, but they recruited a couple legitimate D1 players last year, so now he's relegated to occasional doubles play. I don't know what to tell you other than that. He has a winning record at 4.0, but he's also lost a bunch of critical matches, too.
     
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  16. goober

    goober Legend

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    It is possible- the lowest level D1 schools have walk ons who might play their lower lines or sub in.
     
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  17. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    Wow....so there basically isn't even a Tennis program at those schools??

    edit* I re-read. OK, so they could be filling up numbers if they don't have players.
     
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  18. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    That's sometimes an issue with tennis teams at University/college level, they just need roster requirements. :)

    -Fuji
     
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  19. Costagirl

    Costagirl Banned

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    I also didn't have a clue to this one. Thanks for clarifying!:confused:
     
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  20. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    I recieved my DQ in the 2012 spring season.

    Think about it ... if you are a 5.0 but you self rate as a 3.0 and get DQ'd to 3.5 why would you be a computer rated 3.5? The only thing they know is that you are too good for 3.0
     
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  21. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    2013 USTA League Regulations

    http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/2013_Regs_final_draft.pdf

    Page 17

    2.04 NTRP DYNAMIC DISQUALIFICATION AND REVIEW PROCEDURES.
    2.04A Applicability. The Regulations in this section are applicable only to the USTA League Adult Division.
    2.04B NTRP Dynamic Disqualification Procedures. Dynamic ratings will be calculated for all Adult Division players during local league competition and at every level of championship competition below National Championships to determine if any players have reached the NTRP Dynamic Disqualification criteria stated in the USTA NTRP Computer Rating System Procedures. Players subject to NTRP Dynamic Disqualification, as described in the NTRP Dynamic Disqualification Table – inside back cover, will be dynamically disqualified if they reach the disqualification level three times based on all matches except retirements received. An NTRP dynamically disqualified player becomes a benchmark.
     
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  22. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for the link ... you are absolutely right as to what it says ... I'm very confused. The rule does not appear to be new, as it is not in red or mentioned at the beginning under major changes either.

    Confused for 2 reasons:
    #1 - Like I said I was DQ'd and was still a "S"elf rate at the higher level after my DQ.
    #2 - That seems like a loophole ... self rate as a 2.5, get DQ'd to 3.0 or even 3.5 when in truth you're a solid 4.5 and now you're a benchmark ... seems very exploitable to me.
     
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  23. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    Actually the language beernutz bolded at the end of 2.04B is new for 2013, it does not appear in the 2012 rules. Looks like USTA overlooked it when they summarized "what's new".

    The player gmatheis hypothesizes in #2, if he kept playing (and played to his potential), would likely continue to be DQed at level after level until he reached 4.5. Self-rating at 2.5 would just buy you a few extra matches.
     
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  24. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    According to the "NTRP DYNAMIC DISQUALIFICATION" chart at the end benchmark players are not subject to dynamic disqualification. (it's the second last chart)
     
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  25. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    I don't think the USTA would apply the not-subject-to-DQ provision to this case, despite what the language would suggest. I believe that although he might show a B in the system, he would remain effectively an S for the purposes of further dynamic disqualification.
     
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  26. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    I should have added "during his self-rate year" after "disqualification".
     
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  27. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Actually the language was there in the 2012 League Regulations, but it was in a different section. See http://assets.usta.com/assets/646/15/USTA League National Regs_2012.pdf page 16 where it optionally can be applied at sectional and below championships:

    2.04B(2)b Run dynamic calculations following the conclusion of the championship and disqualify those players that meet the criteria for NTRP Dynamic Disqualification. An NTRP dynamically disqualified player will be notified by the Section League Coordinator or designee and have the right to a review in accordance with procedures in Reg. 2.04C NTRP Dynamic Disqualification Review Procedures. An NTRP dynamically disqualified player becomes a benchmark.

    For 2013, it is apparently being applied uniformly in all cases of dynamic disqualification.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
    #27
  28. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    ok, I think I figured out the meaning of 2012 rules ... that is under the championship section, so it only applies to someone who is DQ'd at a championship.

    I can only guess that 2013 is a bad cut and paste when some Einstein updated the rules.
     
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  29. emilyhex

    emilyhex Rookie

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    So, what happens is you get DQ'd as a self-rate. Your rating remains an 'S' until the end of the year when new ratings come out. Even if you don't make it to the playoffs, you will then be a 'B' because you had been disqualified.

    Are you saying you still had an 'S' rating at the end of the year you were disqualified?
     
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  30. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    Yeah I still has an "S" rating after my DQ last year and did not get a "C" rating until this year. I was never a "B"

    According to the way the rules read now you would become a "B" after getting a DQ but I have a feeling that it is an oversight when they edited the rules.
     
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  31. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    Players do get a B rating immediately after being DQed, that's how I've been identifying them - download all players' ratings and find the Bs with a rating date more recent than 12/31 of the prior year. It may have started in 2012, or at least I hadn't noticed it until then. Check your own Area/District/Section now and you'll probably find a few. And it's not just dynamic DQs, I saw a couple of players in my District who were DQed for illegally self-rating who sported new Bs. Why you didn't immediately get a B I don't know, perhaps it was related to the fact that you were already playing up and no matches were defaulted, but that's just guessing.
     
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  32. emilyhex

    emilyhex Rookie

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    I don't know man, it might be worth an email to the league coordinator. I'm sure they could explain the method to their madness.
     
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  33. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    There are D1 schools that have players who would be 3.0 or 3.5 if allowed to rate that low. The problem is that people are forced to rate above their real level and when someone is shown to actually have lied on their application, the appeal will be denied. This guy who I spoke about above is really a 4.5 level player, but should not have been allowed to rate 4.0. Now that it is discovered that he lied last year, he should be DQ'ed. He should have had to play a year of 5.0 or at least appealed a 5.0 rating. It is a shame, however, that low level D1 players are forced to be at 5.0 or above when no team would take them because they are really a much lower level player than that.
     
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  34. SunshineJS

    SunshineJS New User

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    You were Dynamically bumped up... not DQ'd. There's a difference. When you are playing as a 4.0s in a 4.5 league and you get bumped up mid season to a 4.5 based on results, then you stay as a 4.5s. If you get DQd as a 4.5s in a 4.5 league then you can no longer compete, your scroes are reversed and you will be a benchmark player the following year-end cycle. Big diffence in terms of "DQs".
     
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  35. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    I was DQ'd ... here is a section of the letter I recieved from USTA with (The X's are put in by me)

    Dear XXXXXX:

    During USTA League Tennis (Adult and Senior Divisions) local league competition and at every level of championship competition below national championships, computer ratings are calculated for all players to determine if any players have reached the disqualification criteria using the USTA NTRP Computer Rating System Procedures. Players are disqualified if they reach the disqualification level three times based on all Adult and Senior Division matches reported in the national database.

    Your match results to date have resulted in three computer ratings at the disqualification level for the X.X level. Beginning today, you must now participate at the X.X level (or higher) in USTA League Tennis (Adult, Senior, Mixed Doubles, Super Seniors), Combo Doubles, and/or USTA sanctioned NTRP Tournaments.

    2.04E(1) Local (removed for length)

    According to these procedures, there is no match penalty in your disqualification.

    The sole basis for an appeal to a NTRP Disqualification is missing or incorrect match data.

    Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

    XXXX XXXXX, State League Coordinator
    PO Box XXX
    XXXXXX, SC XXXXX
    XXX-XXX-XXXX
    XXXXXXX@charter.net
     
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  36. SunshineJS

    SunshineJS New User

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    but you said you played up a level... you were still able to play at that level you were playing. The letter stated DQ, yes but you weren't DQd from the league or team you were playing... you were DQd from the level that you self-rated at and could no longer play at that level in subsequent leagues or tournaments.

    again there is a difference between a true DQ and a move-up DQ
     
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