4th greatest mens clay court player ever

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by illusions30, Oct 19, 2013.

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4th best mens clay court player ever

  1. Lendl

    30.8%
  2. Wilander

    19.2%
  3. Kuerten

    34.6%
  4. Wilding

    7.7%
  5. Cochet

    7.7%
  6. LaCoste

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. illusions30

    illusions30 Banned

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    Who do you consider the 4th best clay court player ever for men, behind the undisputed #1 Nadal, undisputed #2 Borg, and undisputed #3 Rosewall.
     
    #1
  2. illusions30

    illusions30 Banned

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    BobbyOne, I see you picked Lendl. As I immensely respect your knowledge of the history of the mens game, how would you compare these main candidates for the remaining top 5 spots all time on clay vs one another.
     
    #2
  3. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    illusions30, I would rank Lendl,Wilander, Kuerten, Wilding, Cochet, Lacoste (the last two tied).

    But I would rank some others equal or better: Laver, Segura, Gimeno (the last two tied), Hoad, Vilas, Federer, Muster, Gonzalez, Nastase, Trabert
     
    #3
  4. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    Vilas has the record of tournaments won on clay. So, isn't he the best clay court player ? The question is not : who is the best FO player, but who is the best clay court player ?
     
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  5. illusions30

    illusions30 Banned

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    Best clay courter ahead of Nadal and Borg? Are you serious.
     
    #5
  6. Leelord337

    Leelord337 Hall of Fame

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    i disagree with the third choice as Ken Rosewall and think it should've been Guillermo Vilas (had a crazy amount of consecutive wins on the surface), and the fourth idk why but I think Thomas Muster deserves the spot.
     
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  7. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    Not the best, but in the top 4 of course, with Borg, Nadal and maybe Wilander.
     
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  8. ScentOfDefeat

    ScentOfDefeat Hall of Fame

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    Why not have a 27th best clay court player, while we're at it?

    Sheesh.
     
    #8
  9. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    jean pierre, Drobny has won many more clay tournaments than Vilas, also Wilding did.
     
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  10. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Vilas has two clay majors, Rosewall six....
     
    #10
  11. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    I'm talking about open era.
     
    #11
  12. jersey34tennis

    jersey34tennis Rookie

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    have to question where there is no thomas muster in this equation . i know he doesn't have the french open credentials of a kuerten but should be mentioned based on pure animal-ism
     
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  13. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Snake?
    Tiger?
    Bear?
    Lion?
    Cheetah?
    Mongoose?
     
    #13
  14. MethodTennis

    MethodTennis Hall of Fame

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    Federer tbh
     
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  15. PCXL-Fan

    PCXL-Fan Hall of Fame

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    Why are you guys even bringing up Muster? He may sneak into top 12 but he's certainly not no.4
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
    #15
  16. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Not just Open era

    But the OP didn't restrict it to the Open era. It says '4th greatest mens clay court player ever' and then lists a poll with 3 players who were pre-open era.

    Drobny won around two times the clay court titles of Vilas. (Not that I am putting him in the top 10 - though I would definitely put Wilding in the top 10).
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
    #16
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Then you should mention it.
     
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  18. SCRAP IRON

    SCRAP IRON Professional

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    Eddie Dibbs NOW- Just not when he played against the likes of Connors and Borg!

    You should see this guy. He plays with both hands and never loses.
     
    #18
  19. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    Ilie Nastase.
     
    #19
  20. Pebbles10

    Pebbles10 New User

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    Wilander was very clever:)
     
    #20
  21. ThePro101

    ThePro101 Rookie

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    Any votes for Thomas Muster?
     
    #21
  22. bert96

    bert96 Rookie

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    here :)

    10 char
     
    #22
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Muster is so overrated.he fared rather poorly at majors and only at a Muster zone could he claim a rather weak FO title.He was a great fighter and for a couple of years was the tour clay court dominator, but won too many micky mouse events and too little big titles outside clay

    Bruguera had a far better career at majors, yet he could hardly beat Muster.
     
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  24. MethodTennis

    MethodTennis Hall of Fame

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    Why did people keep posting after I said Federer
     
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  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, I agree. I'm glad you are posting again. I had missed you a couple of days...
     
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  26. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Eheh, you really look like an old couple. Arguing and hissing, but inseparable. I agree too by the way. The players he went through to reach his sole RG final and title aren't even impressive at all.
     
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  27. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Here are some possible answers:
    1) They disagree
    2) They were ignoring you
    3) They have other ideas
    4) They were being nice
    5) What you offered does not deserve comment
    6) What you offered is an example of blind, uninformed adulation
    7) Your mother shunned you when you were young
    8 ) You have developed a psychosis about your stature
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
    #27
  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Ha, thanks Bobbyone...BTW, you won´t believe what gem I discovered today while wasting some time at a Department Store: a personnal biography on GIMENO¡¡¡ full of funny, exhilarating stories about his life and his days in the old pro tour.lots, tons of stories, jokes and funny situations with Hoad&Trabert being the instigators of many of them.It covers his playing years, starting when he became one of the most promising ams, in 1959 and 1960, when he beat Emerson at the Queen´s final and Kramer offered him his first pro contract until the 1972-1973 seasons, with a whole chapter on the RG final he won against Proisy....even Bucholz is on the book along other minor players such as Nielsen,Davies,funny to death Pierre Barthes and Haillet.

    And it protrays his very deep relationship ( his and his wife´s) with Laver and Rosewall, but very specialy with Segura and Gonzales ( Gimeno´s wife talks a lot about both of them in the book also, so it looks very genuine) and as I said many really fun to read anecdotes...looks like he dealt with Rosewall that Ken would let Dean Martin win a few points in a match but he was such a lousy player that all efforts of Rosewall were wasted.It also looks that laver was also a great champion at the oven...
     
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  29. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Thanks for that information about the Gimeno book.

    Dean Martin had a son, Dino, who played on the tour (but without success).
     
    #29
  30. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Because this is the Laver forum. Federer doesn't rank high on this forum.
     
    #30
  31. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    TMF, You could learn from those who generally rank Laver higher than Federer.
     
    #31
  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, that is what happened when Gimeno bet Rosewall.It was about Dino Martin, who also happened to be a close friend ( if that is ever possible) with young Connors, when they stayed at Vegas ( Dean Martin was one of the cornerstones of the Vegas night and lived there while Connors spent many hours practicing with the two old Panchos there)

    I recall the amusing words of Connors about Martin, the tipical son of a rich, spoilt kid with fancy cars and clothes, but lazy and jealous.Connors said that " Dino was always pushing me because the only thing he never had in life was what I always had, an attitude and a personality.He kept on betting against me at every match; he betted his clothes, his car and everything...and he always lost.I guess if we had kept on playing he´d probably own me his life".

    Another great quote from Jimmy after being beaten by Agassi at the US Open." This kid could be my son, you know.And maybe he really is...you know, I have spent so much time in Las Vegas..."
     
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  33. BGod

    BGod Semi-Pro

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    Federer.

    I'd also go Vilas at 3rd.

    Kuerten at 5th.
     
    #33
  34. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Wilding

    Wilding was unbeaten on clay for around 4 years, and won around 70 clay titles.
     
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  35. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Federer certainly deserves to be in the discussion -- at least when discussing Open era candidates. Federer, like Lendl, made it to an impressive 5 FO finals. Lendl was able to win 3 of those finals whereas Federer only won 1. However Lendl never had to face Nadal, who has a phenomenal 98.3% win record at the FO. While Lendl faced Borg only once (in his first FO final), Federer faced King Nadal in 4 of his 5 finals. Lendl won a total of 53 of his FO matches (81.5%) while Federer has won 58 FO matches (80.5%).

    Lendl was able to win 28 clay titles compared to 10 clay titles for Federer. Consider that Borg won 30 clay titles out of the 285 matches played (86% wins). Lendl played on clay considerably more with 404 matches (81%) while Federer has only played 248 clay matches (77% wins).

    If we consider only the FO, Federer stacks up very well compared to Lendl. Ivan has 2 more wins but Roger has him beat in other respects. However, if we look at all clay court events it becomes apparent that Lendl has accomplished more. Still, Federer, who is one of the top clay court players in the past 2+ decades, deserves to be in the discussion.
     
    #35
  36. Chico

    Chico Banned

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    Nadal is not undisputed #1. Many, with a good reason, still rank Borg and Rosewall over him.
     
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  37. LazyNinja19

    LazyNinja19 Hall of Fame

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    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
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  38. Anaconda

    Anaconda Hall of Fame

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    How people rank Federer ahead of Guga Kuerten? That's pretty funny. Kuerten s by far the 3rd best clay courter after Nadal and Borg. Federer couldn't win a set against Kuerten at the FO 2004 in Federer's most dominant year and when Kuerten had a busted hip. The match wasn't even close. Rosewall? Yeah, for the people who live in the past and can't accept the game has moved on!















    But hey, I forgot, this is the former pro player page aka the place where apparently Rosewall hits 80mph slices and Laver at his best would beat the likes of Federer/Nadal/Sampras/Safin/Djokovic at their best no problem.........
     
    #38
  39. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Lendl and Wilander have better cc records than Kuerten (Norman,Corretja...) but since you are a newtard, you won´t even consider it, right?
     
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  40. Anaconda

    Anaconda Hall of Fame

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    Kuerten had many injuries throughout his career. I consider injuries and not necessarily achievements. I rate Safin the most gifted and talented player I've seen (along with Federer and Sampras).
     
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  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Anaconda, you can't deny that Rosewall won much more than Kuerten on clay, f.i. 6:3 majors...
     
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  42. Anaconda

    Anaconda Hall of Fame

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    Yep, and that is really tough to argue against. Rosewall is more decorated but Kuerten had injury problems and never really got a chance, I mean, the guy straight setted Federer at FO 2004 with a busted hip, and, I don't think I need to tell you what Federer was doing in 2004. Kuerten had the ability to get close to 6. His level at times was unreal, best 1h bh I've seen.
     
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  43. Backhanded Compliment

    Backhanded Compliment Hall of Fame

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    At his best Guga was the only player with the tools to concievably take on Nadal... Id mark him #3. #2 in the modern era (ie graphite frames from 1984 on).

    Borg is undisputed #1 in the earlier era. Rosewall vs Borg would have been interesting. Same with Nadal vs Guga.
     
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  44. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    That FO match was not as lop-sided as you suggest. One break difference in each set. Guga won 53% of the points -- he did not exactly blow Roger off the court. They had previously met on clay at an ATP Master Series in Germany. Roger prevailed in that meeting, shutting out Guga in the first set (6-0).

    While Guga won 3 FOs, Roger actually made it to 2 more finals than Guga did. Roger has won 77% of his cc matches whereas Guga won just under 70% of his clay matches. I am not saying that Kuerten was less talented than Federer on clay, but his accomplishments do not put him above Rosewall or Lendl.
     
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  45. monfed

    monfed Guest

    LOL If Federer whose worst surface is clay bagelled Nadal on clay and almost beat him in Rome in 5 in 06(missed out due to sheer bad luck) then Kuerten who I believe is the greatest claycourter of all time with the greatest BH on clay would've taken him to the woodshed. Peak Kuerten is the highest level on clay seen,guy had no weaknesses. Just that Nadal is an extremely lucky player, he should've lost both Rome 05,06, RG 11 and 13.
     
    #45
  46. LazyNinja19

    LazyNinja19 Hall of Fame

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    If we are talking about "ifs ....should haves....", then Fed should have lost wimby'07, '09.. Lol :lol: :lol: won by luck no?
    Nadal defeated him on Grass, Murray defeated him on Grass, Benneateau took him to 5 sets, Berdych defeated him on Grass. Then he's no greatest on grass, No? :lol: :lol:
     
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  47. monfed

    monfed Guest

    RG 11 - Fed took out Novak to save Rafi from the career Rafail slam. :lol:

    RG 13 - Novak net trip.

    Rome 06 - Fed had MPs but didn't convert and had Ralph on the mat in the 5th set.

    The evidence is undeniable.
     
    #47
  48. LazyNinja19

    LazyNinja19 Hall of Fame

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    Lawl...."had match points" :lol: :lol:
    Lol, Rafa-Nole H2H in RG 5-0 :-D
     
    #48
  49. Wim

    Wim Guest

    The net trip was just one of many errors Novak made that day.
     
    #49
  50. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Sure but that was the costliest mistake which Ralph played no part in,got out of jail big time like he has done on countless ocassions, his seemingly endless streak of luck never seems to end. Novak holds that game, he wins that match and Ralph would be sitting on 11 slams,wouldn't have won USO either and wouldn't have done the treble.

    So if you discount RG 11 and 13 which he clearly didn't deserve to win esp RG 11 :lol: he'd be on 6 RGs tied with Borg.
     
    #50

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