5.0 Male Player vs Date Krumm

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by El Nino, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. El Nino

    El Nino Rookie

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    Ohh this should be a good debate. Any thoughts?
    I think Date Krumm would win due to the change of pace on her strokes despite her age (43 years old I think?). But the 5.0 guy might stand a good chance actually. (Remember, she took a set of Venus in Wimbledon in 2011)
     
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  2. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    Probably a good match. Tough call. A pro probably has a mental and game plan edge though.

    Edit**

    After reading this thread after I posted, it is clear a true 5.0 would not have a chance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2013
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  3. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    While Krumm is a somewhat known entity, we still don't know how she reacts to 130 heater serves and really high bouncing groundies, or how she react to a good volleyer with a great overhead.
    The 5.0 is a complete unknown. You can post a low level pusher 5.0 with no putaway shot and Kimiko wins breadsticks.
    You can post a RISING 5.0, one with a huge serve, decent volleys, but a great cover at the net, including overheads, and he might win by 3's.
    A baseline counterpuncher 5.0 might be very even.
    Matchups.
     
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  4. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    help me out here. i´m not so familiar with this ntrp thing. would a 5.0 have a world ranking(in the 1´000´s maybe), or a national ranking?
     
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  5. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    A 5.0 CAN have a world ranking, if he entered and did well in some obscure pro tourney.
    But, in general, a 5.0 is a good college level player, with no chance of beating a top 1000 ATP player.
     
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  6. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    thanks
    based on what you say i agree with your post #3 that it would probably depend on the style of play,...
    a rising college player with a big game might be able to win
     
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  7. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    #7
  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Like I said, it depends on which 5.0 male player we are talking about.
    A grounstroker will lose.
    A net player with a big serve, not necessarily fast, but well placed wide, with a decent volley would do well.
    A pusher 5.0 will lose breadsticks.
    Bhupaes, do you have any experience playing a WTA pro? Or even a woman's A/Open player.
    Player's I have played practice sets with or just hit with..... PeanutLouie, MarcieLouie, Ceci and Marisa, CeciMartinez, SusanBrown, DanaGilbert, ArleneCohen, IllanaKloss, RosieCasals, BrittDunkerbeck, and several singles players for UCBerkeley.
     
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  9. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    There are no 5.0 pushers with no putaway shots.
     
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  10. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Sure there are. That pusher guy who hangs around the ATP tour trying to win a point is one.
    To YOU, there are no 5.0 or 6.0 pushers.
    To Nadal, Fed, and most of the top 10, there are plenty of 7.0 pushers.
    BradGilbert is proud to be a 7.0 pusher at times. HaroldSolomon SAID he was a pusher.
    To a beginner, a 3.5 pusher is a great player who hits hard. Maybe to you also.
    It depends on where you're coming from.
     
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  11. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    No, I haven't played with any pro, male or female. But I have played against 5.0 males, and even got a few games. I have also seen WTA players at the Bank of the West event in Stanford, from up close. Based only on these, I think I am safe in saying that 5.0 ain't good enough to beat the likes of Kimiko Date - not even close, IMO.
     
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  12. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    Lee u wrong. 5.0 has no chance
     
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  13. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    no chance

    Date Krumm to breadstick if the 5.0 has a couple of perfect service games.

    don't kid yourself, 5.0 is just very good rec level, nowhere near a top 100 WTA player..
     
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  14. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    OK, two guys who NEVER played against, or hit with any WTA player, OR any A/Open woman's player vs LeeD, who has played more than 20 sets against PeanutLouie, Marcie, Illana, and CeciMartinez.....but more important, talked to them about tennis, and about tennis between men and girls.
    Which opinion, and it's only an opinion, carries more weight?
    Someone who's "seen" WTA players, or someone who actually hit with and talked to WTA and A/Open women's players?
    And we know Dozu has no experience here.
    Your choice. The voice of experience, or pure speculation?
    Marcie had WON the Canadian Open before I started hitting with her.
    Pea won several tourneys the year AFTER I was hitting with her.
     
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  15. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

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    A 5.5 with a good serve would probably be more likely..
    I don't think 5.0 could do it
     
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  16. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    how about someone who hits with a former top 100 WTA ( 2001 - 2004 ) player twice a week and has two pupils currently on DI rides in the states?

    The former pro could regularly beat both these boys right up until they left to take up their scholarships, and she's in her thirties now!

    forget it, LeeD, no 5.0 can hurt Date Krumm with anything they have.
     
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  17. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    The vast majority of 5.0's would get destroyed.

    There's an understandable backlash against people who say Serena could be competitive in the men's game - unfortunately it's gone too far the other way.

    Is the male ego really so fragile that because the vast majority of men don't get to 5.0 that therefore means 5.0's must be competitive with highly rated professional women?

    What a joke.
     
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  18. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I hope you Einsteins don't think EVERY 5.0 player plays exactly the same.
    If you do, we can eliminate you right now.
    Some 5.0's are hanging in at that level by a nail, really belong in 4.5, and maybe not even there.
    Some 5.0's are going to 6.0 within a few months, and only have to play the necessary tournaments to make the jump.
    THERE ARE DIFFERENT levels of play in 5.0.
    My best tennis bud, a No.2 for CCSF (Div111) beat me every match. He also LOST in the first round of all 12 A/Opens we played in, while I got to the third round 4 times, and only lost in the first round 3 times. He was the better player for sure! I was lefty, had a strong 2hbh, and served good enough that A/Open players would ask me to serve to them for practice, as did the top women around SanFrancisco.
    There are DIFFERENT levels of 5.0, and they hit differently, and match up differently!
     
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  19. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    5.0 doesn't seem to be a "good college level player" according to NTRP self-rating guidelines:

    http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/ExperiencedGuidelines_02142011_V2pdf.pdf

    A current or recent D1 player is not supposed to self-rate lower than 5.5.

    No current or recent college players are supposed to self-rate lower than 5.0.
     
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  20. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Another scientist here. Do you even play tennis?
    You have no experience, and know only what you read.
    Read the thread of "how good do I have to play" and see the variance of answers.
     
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  21. Ashley D

    Ashley D Rookie

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    I love these hypotheticals!
    Date-Krumm would win for me. Pros are just at a whole other level. If you watch the WTA pros train close up, the ball just travels so much faster and heavier than any non-pro I've seen close up.
     
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  22. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    While I agree most pros can hit a pretty darn fast and heavy ball.....
    SOME 5.0's have played against 6.0 men, and lost of course.
    SOME 5.0's have played against 5.5 men, and lost of course.
    Some 5.0's have played against 6.5 men, and lost of course.
    They have seen a "heavy or fast" ball, you think?
    And with that experience in hand, they won't be intimidated by anyone not named Serena.
     
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  23. ShoeShiner

    ShoeShiner Rookie

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    DATE was world no.5, everything she knew about tennis, the recreational players cannot be compared.
    Even now, she is very smart in playing. Her sense of tennis, competitive skill, mental skill, fighting spirit are far beyond ordinary players'.

    DATE will win 5.0 guy definitely.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2013
    #23
  24. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Timbo, how do you match up against the former pro?
     
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  25. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    All these threads of male vs female.
    It was pretty much agreed, Serena is par with the best of the 5.5 bunch.
    So if that's even remotely possible, Date cannot be a 5.5, since she is not nearly as strong as Serena.
    I've already conceded Date would crush a pusher, weak hitting 5.0. Date would match up pretty well to a SOLID 5.0, and usually win, but that depends on experience by both players.
    But against a RISING 5.0, one who has the tools to go straight to 6.0, it's not so clear cut.
     
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  26. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    C'mon; 5.0's are rubbish...they only look good to club hackers who don't know what they don't know.
     
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  27. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    "said the great player who disdains playing at 5.0, because it's beneath his level and too easy for any layman to ascend to......
     
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  28. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    poorly, but she humors me :)

    Oh , I can hassle her into error a bit and win a few points off my serve, but she's ultimately too damn consistent and precise, I'm always under pressure..

    I usually lose in the 6 - 2 6 - 3 range but I think she could probably breadstick me if she REALLY wanted to..
     
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  29. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    So, not only is Timbo aging up towards the 50's, but he's injured, and doesn't claim any big "pro level" shots.
    That puts him right in the middle of 5.0....there, but no chance of making another leap upwards.
    Just like I said, a middle of the road 5.0 will lose to Date.
     
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  30. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Oh, Timbo... no slight intended for you.
    I am a upper level 3.5 singles player....with no chance to improve my position, so you're lightyears better than me.
    And I suppose you're a righthander, a all court player, with no ONE special winning shot?
     
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  31. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    no, that's exactly right, Leed.

    No injury, though, just general decline, lol!

    My best shot is probably my 1HBH, but it's no Richard Gasquet, that's for sure! :)
     
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  32. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    But "benchmark", middle of the road 5.0 nonetheless.
    Sorry, I thought you just recovered from a winter shoulder problem.
     
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  33. Timbo's hopeless slice

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    ye, I reckon a benchmark 5.0 is about right.

    as you say, no pro-level shots.

    young and quick I was only really a good 5.5, now I'm neither!
     
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  34. J_R_B

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    So if it takes a 5.0 who is really a 6.0, doesn't it really take a 6.0?
     
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  35. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    At least you didn't drop as far as I did. My best, maybe good 5.0, dumb, quick, big serve, no brains.
    No everything but the 5.0 is replaced by 4.0 average (singles and doubles).
    Growing older, still dumb, no brains, no quick.
     
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  36. VeeSe

    VeeSe Rookie

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    I once took a lesson from a 5.0 who is currently on the George Washington University team. He was training with a top 200 WTA pro that was just passing through at the time, and she was significantly better.
     
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  37. TahoeTennis

    TahoeTennis Professional

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    Did anyone see how badly Kirstin Flipkens played against Sharapova? I mean really bad. I mean a very good 4.5 could have beat her.
     
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  38. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    JRB, not at all.
    A solid 5.0 is usually someone who's going to stay there for a while.
    A rising 5.0 is on his way thru, past, above, whatever.....but at that moment, he's still a 5.0.
    You WILL agree that there are falling 5.0's right? Guys who were once 5.0, but due to injury, age, physical ailments, whatever, are going DOWN.
    If they can go DOWN, another player can be going UP, or RISING!
    In my case, a solid 4.0 for about 15 years. Now going DOWN to 3.5 in singles play. While I'm decending, there is some 4.0 who is ASCENDING up to 5.0 or beyond, but RIGHT NOW, we're both 4.0's.
     
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  39. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Once, I think, but this example.... it's all just ONE example, folks.
    The first time I hit with PeaLouie, she could have beaten me quadruple bagels, because I'd never hit with someone with such flat fast strokes, or looked so cute. After hitting with her about 20 times, our set scores ALWAYS got down to 4, 5's or tiebreakers. You get USED to hitting with someone new.
    First time in a new level, you will play badly. But you get USED TO IT after a few more tourneys, and your water will seek it's level.
    Obviously, you who fall into my first sentence have never moved UP in tennis.
     
    #39
  40. Timbo's hopeless slice

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    if you saw this only on television your comments have no relevance
     
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  41. Red Sunset

    Red Sunset Rookie

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    I think I can honestly say I've never come across anyone who talks as much rubbish a you, LeeD. Actually, that's not true. Mick3391 talks more rubbish than you do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2013
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  42. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I know, to a layman, whenever it looks one sided, the assumption occurs that "a 4.5 would have beat her".
    But in reality, it's more than that on the surface that you saw. Intimidation, respect, awe, shellshock, injury, time of the month, mental state, outside influences, all have a huge bearing.
    A middling 7.0 can lose bagels to a top 7.0 just from the above factors ....for one match anyways, and probably come back to lose 4 and 4 the next meeting.
    That's sports.
    And just because A trounces B, it doesn't mean that either has any chance at all against C, who lost to both A and B.
     
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  43. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    NO, doubt it. she hits a very heavy ball. That racket is very heavy and powerful
     
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  44. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Can she push back with pace?
     
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  45. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    LOL!!!

    she hammers the ball, but then, they all do, you only have to see top women play at court level to know that.

    these boards are full of armchair idiots, though..
     
    #45
  46. bradsm01

    bradsm01 Rookie

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    I can't believe we are having this discussion again. A 4.5 - 5.5 male has no chance against any WTA Tour player ranked in the top 100. Date-Krumm is currently ranked 75. Geez guys be serious! These tour players don't have jobs, or take their kids to school, or go to high school or college, or study for the SAT or MCAT. They simply work on their game and fitness. I watched a practice match between a former rank 50th WTA tour player, she was injured and working to get back on the tour, against a currently ranked 600th male player and I was amazed how she was able to stick with him throughout every single point and yes even on his big serve. I talked to him after he won 7-5, 6-3 and inquired about their ranking, sorry can't recall their names, but he stated if she was fitter the match might have turned out a little more difficult. Anyway, happy dreaming that a 5.0 can beat any of these women.
     
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  47. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Believe what you want, but can you account for a 50 year old, out of shape, BobbyRiggs beating MargaretCourt and then BJK once, before losing?
    Court was a former No.1, and BJK a current top 3 at the time.
    And Riggs used no strokes whatsoever, choosing to just slice and chip.
     
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  48. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Oh...
    YES, it was THIRTY years ago. What happenned then couldn't possibly happen now, in this day and age, could it?
    How many times have we heard that one?
     
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  49. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    we're talking about Date-Krumm here, not some miscellaneous WTA, but a WTA baws*.

    She'd double bagel the guy, unless he had a massive serve. in that case he may get a breadstick if lucky. Her racquet is almost half a kilo** heavy. She's 75 in the world as a 43 year old, i.e. has mad skillz***.

    Think about it this way. How would a 5.0 fare against a top 800 male, an ATP? The amateur would get double bageled. Lucky to get a single point in every other game.


    * Technical term.
    ** More like 400 grams or so, but still. This is no tweener.
    *** Also technical term.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2013
    #49
  50. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I saw Azarenka hitting at Indian Wells a last week. I was impressed by the spin, pace, and control she had on her shots. It was solid stuff. I had realized how physically imposing she is either.

    Love to hit with someone like that, even if it meant getting my you-know-what handed to me.
     
    #50

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