5th Grand Slam

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by ScovilleJenkins, Apr 4, 2009.

  1. ScovilleJenkins

    ScovilleJenkins Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2005
    Messages:
    261
    I keep hearing how Miami is the 5th Grand Slam. What makes it better than Indian Wells?
     
    #1
  2. Mungo73

    Mungo73 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,014
    that 5th slam thing is complete bull-**** there are 4 slams

    monte carlo is the most prestigious masters
     
    #2
  3. Storm

    Storm New User

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2009
    Messages:
    25
    It is referred to as the Grand Slam of South America
     
    #3
  4. ihearit1st

    ihearit1st Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    273
    Monte Carlo is out because its not WTA and ATP. So it wouldn't fit the "grand slam" style category.

    Indian Wells would be up there with Miami.
     
    #4
  5. rubberduckies

    rubberduckies Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,254
    The Italian Open / Rome Masters is the 5th slam.
     
    #5
  6. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Messages:
    10,625
    Location:
    Harker Heights, Texas
    I agree that Monte Carlo is the most presitgious Masters Series. Americans always make more of the touraments in their location. Even as an American, I find that annoying.
     
    #6
  7. JediMindTrick

    JediMindTrick Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,490
    Indian Wells is the 5th grand slam. Miami is a wannabe.
     
    #7
  8. Mungo73

    Mungo73 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,014
    yeah but man it sucks when we have to wait for womens matches to finish, choke after choke...i like mens tourneys better

    i cant wait for monte carlo, vamos rafa!!!!
     
    #8
  9. ihearit1st

    ihearit1st Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    273
    Italian Open is much smaller than Indian Wells or Sony Ericsson for women. 2 million in prize money vs. 4.5 million.

    They also wouldn't fit the "grand slam" mold because they do not run at the same time.
     
    #9
  10. ihearit1st

    ihearit1st Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    273
    This isn't at all relevant to the topic.
     
    #10
  11. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Messages:
    10,625
    Location:
    Harker Heights, Texas
    Alright Indian Wells and Miami are the biggest according to the organization of them. I find that annoying that we have so many big hard court tournaments. There should be more big clay court tournaments. Balance out them at least. Maybe downgrade Miami to regular Masters format and upgrade Monte Carlo.
     
    #11
  12. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    12,744
    Location:
    Carrboro, NC
    Africa needs a big tourney, I am thinking move the end of season Masters for both men and women to South Africa and it could be a December 5th slam.
     
    #12
  13. chlsmo

    chlsmo Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2006
    Messages:
    521
    Location:
    So. Cal
    Isn't Ion Tiriac (sp.) working on that? I think the new Madrid 1000 is a ATP/WTA clay event. Still only one week though, I think.
     
    #13
  14. stormholloway

    stormholloway Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,832
    Location:
    New York City
    Borg declared the Italian Open the '5th slam' when he was playing. Actually, he considered it greater than the Australian and thought it should replace that tournament.

    Most of what people talk about on this subject is nonsense. Instead of just calling something a slam, people should focus more on what would actually make the tournament better for the sport.
     
    #14
  15. dr325i

    dr325i Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    5,302
    Location:
    TX
    Maybe that is why it won "The best tournament award" many years in a row???
    I think IW is a wannabe...
     
    #15
  16. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Messages:
    31,171
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Which tournament has been held longer? :wink:

    Miami started in 1985

    IW started in 1988
     
    #16
  17. ruerooo

    ruerooo Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    6,578
    Location:
    Right behind you
    Miami, despite a large Spanish-speaking population, is in North America.
    Why would it be called a slam of South America?
     
    #17
  18. Tshooter

    Tshooter Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    2,235
    Miami > Indian Wells for a number of reasons not the least of which is two of the stars of the women's game never play Indian Wells.
     
    #18
  19. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Messages:
    31,171
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    He wasn't referring to Miami.
     
    #19
  20. ruerooo

    ruerooo Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    6,578
    Location:
    Right behind you
    I think they're trying to build up the Johannesburg tournament that Tsonga won this year to be that.
    I'm not sure what kind of progress has been made so far, though.
     
    #20
  21. ruerooo

    ruerooo Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    6,578
    Location:
    Right behind you
    How do you know?
    And if (s)he weren't, why would it make sense to be referring to IW?

    Not trying to be belligerent. Just confused.
     
    #21
  22. simi

    simi Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,929
    Location:
    Laurentia
    That alone make IW a "better" tournament.

    Just kidding . . . well, maybe not totally. I also find this talk about Miami/IW "interesting". Just that, "talk". I don't really care. Been going to IW every year for a few now, and after seeing the draw for Surise this year, I just might make Fort Lauderdale/MIami into an extended vacation next year. Hmmm, let's see, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, of opening weekend at IW; fly to Fort Lauderdale to catch the Sunrise tournament, then a few days at Crandon Park. Stay with daughter and her husband while also visiting the grandkids. Sounds nice!
     
    #22
  23. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Messages:
    31,171
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    I figured he/she was incorrectly referring to Monte Carlo... thinking it was the Montecarlo in Argentina.

    That made more sense since NY (i.e. North America) already has a GS Tourny, the US Open and neither Miami nor IW is in South America.
     
    #23
  24. Tshooter

    Tshooter Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    2,235
    "Most of what people talk about on this subject is nonsense"

    It's hardly nonsense. It's good marketing. The Miami Masters draws a huge and enthusiastic crowd from Central and South American countries to see the "South American Slam."

    As for Borg's comments. I think what he said was correct in the late 70s and arguably into the early 80s. A lot has changed since. Rome is way down the list of player/sponsor priorities today. And The Australian was resurrected from the dead to be a full-fledged member of the GS.
     
    #24
  25. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Messages:
    31,171
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Well, color me wrong :oops:

    I've never heard it referred to as that. Perhaps, if you're from SA, you're aware of that moniker.

    Musta been why all those obnoxious Delpo supporters were in the crowd during the Nadal match :twisted:
     
    #25
  26. _maxi

    _maxi Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    851
    Location:
    Nalbaland
    I have always considered as the fifth grand slam the masters cup.
     
    #26
  27. leonidas1982

    leonidas1982 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,615
    Miami does get the highest tv ratings in Latin America outside of the slams. moreover, many residents of Latin America travel to Miami for the tournament.
     
    #27
  28. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    5,434
    Location:
    England
    Peter Fleming calls Miami "The South American Major" thanks to the huge support the players from that region receive from a large section of the locals.
     
    #28
  29. clayman2000

    clayman2000 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,849
    This is actually from the past, as a while ago, IW was a 64 draw like all the other masters, and Miami was the only 96. Thus since it had the largest draws for both men and women outside the slams, it was coined the 5th Major.

    In terms of the most important Masters, i really doubt that any of the clay masters are seen as the most important, even to clay courters. This is becuase traditionally, a lot of big seeds go out early and there are usually surprise players at the end of tourneys (eg. Wawrinka Rome 08, Gonzo Rome 07, Stepanek Hamburg 06), so it has a rep of thus not being important.
     
    #29
  30. !Tym

    !Tym Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    1,697
    It doesn't have a rep for not being important, not at all imo. "Surprises" happen at hard court masters too. Remember guys like Bhodan Uhlirach, Andrei Pavel, and worst of all HAREL LEVY (a *career* challenger level guy outside of this one run basically) made their greatest glories at hardcourt masters events. It's inevitable. Just because Felip Dewulf made it deep at the French two years in a row doesn't mean the French isn't prestigious anymore. Just because Wally Masur once almost made the finals of the US Open doesn't mean it's not prestigious anymore.

    Miami WAS considered the "5th slam" in the 80s and most of the nineties, but imo, that is no longer the case. Imo, Miami was once considered MUCH more prestigious than it is now, back when it was called the Lipton. Imo, it lost its "brand appeal" and became generic sounding when they lost Lipton as their title sponsor. The name was synonymous with the tournament, and once a tournament loses it's ESTABLISHED "brand" name, I think it's difficult to recover from that. Furthermore, back then, Miami was the ONLY tournament outside the slams to field two-gender draws. Indian Wells IS the wannabe these days, but the problem for Maimi is that Indian Wells has done a VERY good job of putting on a world class tournament themselves, and in doing so, their prestige has grown, and Miami's has lessened significantly. Miami is no longer the star, it's been "caught up" to by other ambitious tournament organizeers who've upped the ante.

    Winning Miami today is NOWHERE near as "prestigious" as it was when Muster won it in 97 imo. Back then, it really must have felt like something to him. These days, however, I think the tournament is more or less seen AND treated as just another masters series to most players. Yeah, it's still a little more important, but no longer MUCH more important "feeling" than the other masters series events. A Miami win before meant something...today it kind of just feels like, ok, so you won a masters series, good for you, what do you want, a Tennis Warehouse party for your troubles?
     
    #30
  31. tennis_hand

    tennis_hand Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    4,427
    why is Monte carlo most prestigious? because it is in MC? that is also slow clay bull-****.

    after the 4 Slams, it is the year end championship. No argument about it.
     
    #31
  32. Kobble

    Kobble Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    2,365
    I agree. I don't know why they lost Lipton as the sponsor. I still called it the Lipton even years after they changed. I really wish I went there pre-1998. Once, I had the freetime to go it was basically a spanish speaking region. The year I went was disappointing. The rude foreigners were simply too much. These people live in shacks in Hialiah, now, and stole at fruit stands in their old country. Apparently, they are attracted to the Miami ghettos, so, I don't see how we can do anything about. Except, maybe move them to Opa Locka, or something.
     
    #32
  33. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    8,598
    The Olympics are the closest thing to a Slam, I guess. It's kind of like the World Cup (soccer/football) in a sense.

    The YEC are also pretty much the next best thing, on a yearly basis.

    I've heard that by 2011 or 2012 the Master's series tourneys will all be combined men's/women's events and 2 weeks long. Anybody else hear this?
     
    #33
  34. gj011

    gj011 Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    6,548
    Location:
    Back from prison
    There are only 4 slams. And it should stay that way. End of story.
     
    #34
  35. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    8,882

    There is some precedent for Miami being the "5th Slam", though I think that claim has always been more of a marketing term to get across the point that Miami is "big and important" than it is actually a belief that it is the 5th Slam.

    Anyway, back when Miami was the "Lipton Championships" it was a bigger draw (128 or 96 I believe) and every round for a couple years was best of 5 sets. It had the big field, the sponsors, the TV coverage, and the format was similar to a Slam, and prize money was pretty big (it may have been more than the AO), so the 5th Slam talk started. Pay no mind to it. It's just a way to separate one non-Slam from the others.
     
    #35
  36. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,949
    Then the Olympics
    then the 4 slams
    then the Davis cup and the masters cup
    then the masters series events
     
    #36
  37. Telepatic

    Telepatic Legend

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Messages:
    7,167
    Location:
    Serbia, Belgrade
    4 slams
    Olympics
    Masters cup
    Davis cup
    ..
     
    #37
  38. THERAFA

    THERAFA Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    There are enough slams already, please no more, just if anything move Aust Open to a month later.
     
    #38
  39. Safinator_1

    Safinator_1 Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,221
    Miami is in no way a 5th Slam, If there is such thing that title belongs to the Masters Cup or Tour end Championship whatever. Saying that is also a long shot itself.

    I really don't think a 5th slam is necessary, the 4 we have is fine
     
    #39
  40. THERAFA

    THERAFA Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    Plus a 5th slam won't feel prestige at all, it will feel like a fake slam, especially if it was Miami, you won't find European tennis fans calling some tournament in Miami a slam. Australian Open struggled for slamness for so long, it only is just gaining power.
     
    #40
  41. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    8,598
    The Aussie open is still kind of lacking in slam-ness... slam-ocity?

    I think the key to a slam having some tradition would be for a single player to win it, atleast 3 times consecutively and atleast 5 times in their career. Andre Agassi is the closest thing to it, but a player who dominates the Australian Open will be attached to it's overall aura. Kind of like how Borg and Nadal own the French Open, and Sampras and Federer own Wimbledon.

    Also, the Aussie Open is seen as the lesser hardcourt Grand Slam because of it's similarity to the U.S. Open, which itself is prestigious. Maybe another change of surface is needed? Carpet slam?
     
    #41
  42. THERAFA

    THERAFA Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    Yeah Carpet slam sounds good to me, and change Sydney International and Adelaide Invitational and Tasmania and Hopman Cup to carpet too to make a full season of it.

    I was disappointed when AO got rid of the rebound ace. I liked rebound ace especially when it was really slow, very good contrast back then.
     
    #42
  43. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    8,598
    And a Carpet Slam would bring back some of the 90's style of play with the whole chip-and-charge and serve-and-volley thing going on.

    I mean, if there's going to be any carpet tournaments played on the ATP tour, why not make a season out of it, or at the very least cap it off with a Master's Event (like Paris used to be).

    Starting the year off with a Carpet season would be hilarious, just to see players adjust from the speed of the Carpet, then to the slow Clay, and then to Grass, and then to Hardcourts.

    Definitely more entertaining!:)
     
    #43
  44. THERAFA

    THERAFA Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    Yeah we should start carpet season next year I hope I can organise it in time.
     
    #44
  45. JW10S

    JW10S Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,896
    IW has the highest fan attendance outside the 4 Slams. Miami, due to the fact that the Williams sisters do not play IW, has what some feel is the strongest field outside the Slams. 6 of 1, 1/2 a dozen of the other...

    Re: carpet--carpet is hardly used on the tours at all anymore. It's obsolete.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2009
    #45
  46. THERAFA

    THERAFA Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    It won't be obsolete if New Zealand and Australia play all their post-Christmas events on it. Is carpet expensive?
     
    #46
  47. Fee

    Fee Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    7,299
    Location:
    In front of my computer, obviously
    Never has been, never will be.

    My apologies if this answer has been given, I did not have time to read the entire thread... Miami is referred to as the '5th Slam' because years ago it was almost as large as a slam, it even had a mixed doubles draw. IW was a one week women's event followed by a one week men's event at the Hyatt Resort until about 10 years ago when the IW Tennis Garden was built. Miami was a mixed event years before that, back in the day when it was called The Lipton Championships. Miami used the 5th Slam nickname for years before IW tried to steal it.
     
    #47
  48. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Messages:
    11,575
    Location:
    Ometepe, Pink Granite, Queyras, Kerguelen (...)
    no 5th slam, but appart from the slams the most prestigious tournaments is without any doubt the (year-end) masters. :)
     
    #48
  49. stormholloway

    stormholloway Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,832
    Location:
    New York City
    Miami is a completely obnoxious tournament in my view. Lot of hecklers.
     
    #49
  50. shadows

    shadows Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    8,034
    Location:
    England
    heh British press were quick to note that Miami has at times been called the 5th slam while reporting Murrays win in the morning papers xD

    I care nothing for the idea of a 5th slam really, more interested in a grass masters
     
    #50

Share This Page