A Forehand Progression

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by JohnYandell, Jun 29, 2011.

  1. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^Okay...

    1)Extension phase is over by the time of this photo frame - we have no idea whether he extended or not.

    2)The finish is not "too close" to him

    here comes Novak...

    [​IMG]

    look a familiar position?

    3)He is very MTM!!! :)

    cheers
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
    #51
  2. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    yes, its not ideal. djokovic was probably a little late. robert does it on his basic rallying forehand.
     
    #52
  3. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^Nope, contact point has his elbow infront of the plane of his body and the contact is out in front.

    cheers
     
    #53
  4. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]


    given that is the basic forehand followthrough

    is it more similar to brice or robert?
     
    #54
  5. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    he is also missing the mogul step here


    dont tell me u are going to teach your students to follow through like that on a basic forehand.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
    #55
  6. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Can't see that forehand frame by frame. But have to say it looks pretty good.
    Don't get what your criticisms really are.
     
    #56
  7. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    As for the Djok still you will see him wrap over the shoulder on the highest percentage of his forehands. The old finish that was supposedly dead in the wiper reverse era. He will combine that with great extension on his basic drive.

    Don't confuse extension with the wrap.
     
    #57
  8. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    u dont see the difference between brice and robert?
     
    #58
  9. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    The main correction I would make with an advanced player like that would be to get him to have more 'air under his armpit' as he swings forward. He tends to pin his upper arm against his body and robs himself of some power. Freeze at the 10 second mark.
     
    #59
  10. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    he does have a lot of "air" on his backswing, but not the case for the rest of his swing.

    he start supinating too early, imo
     
    #60
  11. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I'm not a big fan of the Jy checklist, as it reads more like a chapter in a book to me and still leaves out some keys, but I must agree with him and others that the player's Fh does not have big problems and has more going right than wrong IMO. I don't see this Fh as being a yes to all the steps and #6 as one example.

    It does not have the forward step, momentum based extension of usual traditional instruction. (If you don't teach it that way, don't feel this is directed to you!) This is a good thing on this Fh, as he clearly hits up and across the contact.
     
    #61
  12. ProgressoR

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    pushingwins, give it up, you are on to a loser here, that FH looks pretty good
     
    #62
  13. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    What I mean is when he comes out of his pat and comes forward. His upper arm is pinned against his body. Compare it to this pro forehand at 15 second mark. You see 'air under his arm pit'.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AJYfkJ4hc

    Now look at your video at the 10 second mark, no air. This phase works great to teach young players to add power. You can get a 7 year old hitting killer forehands when they extend as part of the stroke and get some air under the arm pit. I need to learn how to post video. I have before and after of a kid who was taught to extend out and the difference in forehand power is amazing.
     
    #63
  14. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    lol

    win or lose what?
     
    #64
  15. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    if more air means more tilted spine, then i agree.

    but if his weight is coming around too early, even with more air, he will still finish with his racquet too close to him.


    i think robert is missing the phase where u send the elbow ahead of your torso before pronation. u can see it in the picture below. also, the elbow is relatively close to the body compared to say, federer.

    [​IMG]


    the elbow should start close to the body coming out of the pat , and far away from the body on the follow-through. the elbow is traveling away from your body in between.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
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  16. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    mometum is more left to right compared to brice.

    brice comes through the ball a lot better.

    why is #6 in dispute?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
    #66
  17. JohnYandell

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    Uh, just looked at the link you posted as failing the checklist...

    It's very hard to speculate with no freeze frames or high speed shutter. that arm might be pinned but it is also a blur and the elbow is often in closer on more extreme double bend grips.
     
    #67
  18. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    your checklist is mostly conventional wisdom.

    however this wisdom has produced a wide array of diffferent forehands- some good, some not so good. it logically follows that the checklist is incomplete.


    so missing from your checklist..............for more extreme grip, elbow more tucked in, slide the elbow ahead of the torso out before pronation?

    pronation brings the elbow away from the body which creates extension.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
    #68
  19. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    I didn't really get into the differences in the grips. It's a good question the exact positioning and spacing of the hitting arm. But a complex topic due to straight elbow, bent elbow etc etc.
     
    #69
  20. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I think it's a good list. I may not cover every case or be a complete instructional "how to", but if you're doing the things on that list your FH's probably in better shape than most club players. I see a lot of forehands that aren't doing many/most of the items on that list.

    It would be interesting to understand where grips and elbow position affect certain aspects of the list, but I can see how that could get fairly complicated. I appreciate the freebies that folks like John send our way.
     
    #70
  21. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    rkelly,

    thanks man.
     
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  22. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    and the purpose of your checklist is? mainly for club players?
     
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  23. JohnYandell

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    I think it applies across levels. But the club players are the ones who in general will be furthest away from the basic points.
     
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  24. Ash_Smith

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    So, if we were to synthesize JY's list into say 5 steps for teaching progressions, which 5 would you all pick and why and in what order?

    cheers
     
    #74
  25. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    progression from beginner to advance player

    or

    progression from take back to follow through

    ?
     
    #75
  26. Ash_Smith

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    ^^^good question. Let's say a set of progressions for a relative beginner.

    cheers
     
    #76
  27. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Good Ready Position

    Full Turn (including unit turn)

    Timing of turn in relation to bounce

    Extension Posiition


    Then if necessary backtrack to hitting arm position, contact point, stance issues.
     
    #77
  28. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    progression for an individual? or progression for technical elements for a forehand for a beginner?
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2011
    #78
  29. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Because I didn't see this part of #6 in the vid in question-
    #6. make it all the way there if they take a step forward into a simple neutral stance as the backswing is coming down.
     
    #79
  30. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    interesting title for something described as:

    "racket hand has come across to the edge of the left shoulder"

    maybe this is why I get lost with classical terms. Seems the old terms are inserted to describe the more modern checkpoints to make it jive together.
     
    #80
  31. JohnYandell

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    5263:

    If you ever actually decide to study video you'll see that on the basic drives that this is the point where the hand extends furthest away from the body. Not some classical or modern term although it describes forehands from all eras--just a way of understanding what really happens.

    Again it's not hard to understand. The racket moves in three dimensions: outward, upward, and across. Those are the three directions that can be varied to create the range of finishes. We are trying to give checkpoints for a basic drive here.
     
    #81
  32. dak95_00

    dak95_00 Professional

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    John,

    Does grip size of the racquet have an effect on the stroke? I know you primarily do video but have you studied this?

    Thanks.
     
    #82
  33. JohnYandell

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    Good question! Not really sure. But Fed and Nadal are very relaxed in the arm and because of the wiper and reverse finishes there is a lot of movement, rotation, flexion, in both the wrist and elbow. Might be related in some way. Got to think it's not random that they are using these grips.
     
    #83
  34. dak95_00

    dak95_00 Professional

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    The reason I ask is that I've been having really great success using the basic grips described in your book w/ my strokes. I've used to require a larger grip so I could feel the bevels more pronounced to be certain I could get to the grip properly. Now that I have simplified my grips and strokes, I find the larger grip hindering my looseness and follow through. Obviously, I don't have the time and money to experiment w/ going to smaller grips but I feel I should give a smaller grip a try to see if it allows my wrist and forearm to relax allowing me to follow through more effortlessly.

    It was just a thought. I don't want to reinvent the wheel if someone had completed the work already.

    I guess I could just take off the leather grips and place on an overwrap only.
     
    #84
  35. JohnYandell

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    Good news about your grips! Yeah try it with an over wrap and report back!
     
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  36. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Maybe you need to brush up your vid skill and look at this APAS of Fed,
    clearly showing at 5:01 the moment furthest towards the target and not getting to the opp shoulder till 5:04 or so.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPLmCqGIotM
     
    #86
  37. JohnYandell

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    5263:

    It's a great forehand, but similar to the one you posted way back, which shows the break off earlier than in the subsequent video I posted.

    Here is my point. When the player comes across on his basic drive his hand is still extended outward toward the target. And often this is the point of maximum extension.

    You can find most of the top players in this position. Rafa with all the reversing, it's rarer.

    Once you can really hit through the ball and still hit up with topspin as you come across, now start to experiment. Obviously Fed can do it all with infinite variety. That one breaks off too soon to be the model in my opinion.
     
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