A possible answer to the "Do Tennis Pro's Use Steroids"

[SublimeTennis]

I think you need to lay off your testosterone supplements. One of their side effects is random rage.

If you clearly have no idea, you should refrain from making definitive statements like "I don't like to accuse without having facts, but we do know Nadal's name was on that Spanish Doctors list of who he provided steroids to" or "look at Federer's face close....I can see someone a mile away whose used massive amounts of HGH and Testosterone, ... he looks old because he has so much facial fat loss, again a sign of TEST and HGH."

Thanks for all of your help and adding to the fun of this forum, I know people like you, no interest in engaging, no interest in adding to the debate, you search to find errors and correct us all, we all thank you for having a forum police, after all I'm sure you know EVERYTHING.

I haven't found any contrary evidence to the fact that Nadal is on that list, go to the Steroid forums and debate them, I was pointing it out, if you have contrary evidence source it or shut the mouth. And I am right about Federer, look up for example Rich Plano, look at his face and then Fed's, you can't miss it, their skin is very thick yet they have lipoatrophy, coincidence? Maybe, maybe not, that was not the point but you don't care, do you?

And you don't get "Roid Rage" by making your hormones as they were at 20 unless you think every 20 year old has Roid Rage, you just don't get it, that's fine, just don't write anything and further embarrass yourself, it's not "Roid Rage" since I don't take Steroids, I just don't suffer fools well, my bad.

 

[SublimeTennis]

You seem to have the mistaken impression that Testosterone is not a steroid. It is. Naturally produced, granted, but an anabolic steroid nevertheless.

And bioidentical or not, it is illegal to take it in sports. The money one can rob from a bank is 'bioidentical' to the one that comes as one's salary. Bit only one is legal...

As for taking it yourself, nothing wrong with that if properly done under a doctor's supervision and if side effects are monitored (listen to Suresh!). Given what crap is in the food we eat and the air we breathe one wonders whether a few ml of Test is such a big deal in the end

Yes Kalin you are 100% correct, Testorone and HGH are Steroids. I was trying to differentiate the difference between illegal synthetic uber high dose Testosterone (Anabolic Steroids HOW we understand them) and simply Testosterone replacement.

In case others don't get it, a person with normal TEST wants to be super muscular, they take for example Dianabol, that's a synthetic Testosterone that boosts their TEST off the charts, it's what Arnold lived on, legal for along time, but can be very damaging, when you go way above what "normal" levels are you pose many risks to your health, see this is why the morons in our Government don't get it, I can explain this a million times, but people can't read these days, to say a 20 year old is dangerous because his TEST is at X level is ridiculous, not saying you Kalin you seem to get it, so if you are 39, your TEST is low THAT to me is dangerous, your organs atrophy, skin, everything, that is dangerous, but to bring it back to when you were 20, you become "alive" again, organs get strong, skin, everything, and as I say I'll take it, it's only dangerous if you think a 20 year olds levels are dangerous, go above that then yes it can be dangerous, but not normal levels.

To me the higher risk is to allow your body, your organs, muscles, skin, etc. to atrophy, forever science has told us taking TEST contributed to prostate cancer, now it's just the opposite, LOW T contributes to prostate cancer, it needs TEST

 

[Easy Rider]

There is no profesional sport without doping. Fact.

 

[SublimeTennis]

There is no profesional sport without doping. Fact.

While I agree, source please? Circumstantial evidence helps but doesn't prove, and we can't indict tennis players without facts, so what facts please? All I could find was flimsy circumstantial evidence.

 

[Slice'n'dice]

I've said this before in many threads. It is likely that a large proportion of tennis players do or have used some sort of performance enhancer. Given the ease of tweaking chemicals like people have been doing for recreational drugs to make legal analogs, so must they be doing for athletes with illegal performance enhancers. Which as a result would not be banned, because it didn't previously exist but will be eventually, given how straightforward this is for such people it is likely happening plenty. Not to mention masking agents and the rest of the many ways to cheat tests, so it's almost inevitable.

It's kind of sad but that's the way of the world. They are still great athletes and competitors whether they do or they don't use such substances. They still work bloody hard to get where they are, no drug in the world can make you into suddenly the best player ever. But the whole thing does seem a bit beyond our control now, I don't really know what you could do to control it.

 

[TennisHound]

Like I said, this definitely worth doing research on, since most of us past 45 are certainly thinking about it.

 

[Easy Rider]

While I agree, source please? Circumstantial evidence helps but doesn't prove, and we can't indict tennis players without facts, so what facts please? All I could find was flimsy circumstantial evidence.

Football, baseball, track and field, swimming, cycling, weightlifting ... Etc etc ... Do we really believe that tennis is clean?!?!?
Ive watched an interview with BALCO doctor (he was a doctor, I think) and what hit me was this sentence : If you fail on doping test, you must be very stupid person.
That says everything

 

[WYK]

I certainly can't speak for the pros. But I am now in my 40's, and I get prescribed steroids on a nearly regular basis between the forestry, logging, and sports I do. Recently injured my shoulder in a carpet court incident in doubles bad enough I couldn't lift my arm above my head for a week. I got roids, way way more than I ever need, and I got to say... they make a huge difference in recovery and training. I have so many laying about from previous injuries, I use them as much as I dare combined with 'training' and play(with advice from my doctor, of course). You really feel them the day after a hard workout, especially in your joints. I feel 15 years younger sometimes. My stomach feels 15 years older at other times, though...

 

[zep]

I haven't found any contrary evidence to the fact that Nadal is on that list

What evidence? Please share your evidence that Nadal was on that list. The only thing I have heard till date is speculation that too without any solid base -- not even circumstantial, propagated by the usual suspects.

 

[SublimeTennis]

What evidence? Please share your evidence that Nadal was on that list. The only thing I have heard till date is speculation that too without any solid base -- not even circumstantial, propagated by the usual suspects.

Doesn't work that way, you can't answer a challenge with a challenge, source that Nadal was not on the list, I've read that everywhere, real articles not just speculation.

 

[zep]

Doesn't work that way, you can't answer a challenge with a challenge, source that Nadal was not on the list, I've read that everywhere, real articles not just speculation.

That has to be the stupidest thing I have read in a while. If you accuse someone, it's your duty to prove it. You are the accuser here. How about you give me the links to some of those real articles that categorically state that Nadal was on the list (no speculation)? The list was never made public. No one knows who's on that list. Nadal, by the way has asked multiple times to make it public.

 

[SublimeTennis]

That has to be the stupidest thing I have read in a while. If you accuse someone, it's your duty to prove it. You are the accuser here. How about you give me the links to some of those real articles that categorically state that Nadal was on the list (no speculation)? The list was never made public. No one knows who's on that list. Nadal, by the way has asked multiple times to make it public.

Actually you are correct, I brought it up first, I'll source it.

 

[zep]

Actually you are correct, I brought it up first, I'll source it.

Still trying to source it? Come on, it shouldn't be that hard!

 

[SublimeTennis]

Still trying to source it? Come on, it shouldn't be that hard!

Sorry, I forgot all about you, probably because you are a useless dick. Next time there is a thing called "Google", just put in "Nadal, on list of Spanish doctor who prescribed Steroids"

He was on the list, or alleged which is what I said, but the doctor wouldn't release the names.

Funny that Federer, just after beating Nadal at Basel finals said "I can't understand why they don't check us for steroids", I wonder who he was referring to! But as I say, I have NO IDEA if he is or isn't, wouldn't be surprised though as I said, Tennis doesn't care, if it did they'd check more often.

Here you go;

http://www.tennishorts.com/tennis-drugs-cheats-could-be-named-and-shamed/
http://www.tennisnow.com/News/Doping,-Tennis,-Nadal---Connection-.aspx
https://www.google.com/#q=rafael+nadal+was+on+doctors+list+of+steroids

 

[Inanimate_object]

Sorry, I forgot all about you, probably because you are a useless dick. Next time there is a thing called "Google", just put in "Nadal, on list of Spanish doctor who prescribed Steroids"

He was on the list, or alleged which is what I said, but the doctor wouldn't release the names.

Funny that Federer, just after beating Nadal at Basel finals said "I can't understand why they don't check us for steroids", I wonder who he was referring to! But as I say, I have NO IDEA if he is or isn't, wouldn't be surprised though as I said, Tennis doesn't care, if it did they'd check more often.

Here you go;

http://www.tennishorts.com/tennis-drugs-cheats-could-be-named-and-shamed/
http://www.tennisnow.com/News/Doping,-Tennis,-Nadal---Connection-.aspx
https://www.google.com/#q=rafael+nadal+was+on+doctors+list+of+steroids

You could not have done your argument a greater disservice with your so-called "evidence".

Lets start with the obvious premise that @zep called you out on. You cannot presume guilt. Guilt must be proven. You cannot support your idea that Nadal is doping based on the lack of evidence to refute his guilt. @zep asked for evidence not speculation. Let's take a dive into your sources shall we?

The first source is not condemning, hinting or implying in any way shape or form that Nadal is on Fuentes' list. Nadal is, in fact, the very one who is questioning why the list has not been publicly disclosed by court order - an act, which I may remind you, would incriminate himself, were your unfounded speculations about him true.

The second source at least passes a sanity check for being relevant to the discussion. But 1) Neither Dr. Fuentes or his list of secretly doping Spanish athletes are even mentioned, only a cursory and un-investigated quote by Yannick Noah. 2) The so called proof, is the very definition of circumstantial evidence - only damning absolutely through the eyes of someone who has already made up their mind to try and infer guilt.

Your third source is a lazy Google query. Before educating others on Google, you should be the first to know Google is a search engine, not a list of admissible evidence to your inputs.

The proof is in the pudding. The pudding is nowhere to be found.

 

[ctoth666]

I take steroids. Ask me anything!

 

[Deleted member 688153]

I pay $300.00 a month for HGH and get my TEST free through insurance, bad argument.

I take steroids. Ask me anything!

How many French Opens so far?

 

[Sirius Black]

Thanks for all of your help and adding to the fun of this forum, I know people like you, no interest in engaging, no interest in adding to the debate, you search to find errors and correct us all, we all thank you for having a forum police, after all I'm sure you know EVERYTHING.

I haven't found any contrary evidence to the fact that Nadal is on that list, go to the Steroid forums and debate them, I was pointing it out, if you have contrary evidence source it or shut the mouth. And I am right about Federer, look up for example Rich Plano, look at his face and then Fed's, you can't miss it, their skin is very thick yet they have lipoatrophy, coincidence? Maybe, maybe not, that was not the point but you don't care, do you?

And you don't get "Roid Rage" by making your hormones as they were at 20 unless you think every 20 year old has Roid Rage, you just don't get it, that's fine, just don't write anything and further embarrass yourself, it's not "Roid Rage" since I don't take Steroids, I just don't suffer fools well, my bad.

The 3d delts, hair loss, and gynecomastia are better tell-tale signs than face skin.

 

[SublimeTennis]

The 3d delts, hair loss, and gynecomastia are better tell-tale signs than face skin.

Could be, this entire post was born off something I am doing! In my investigations of steroids vs testosterone replacement, HGH stimulators vs HGH injections, I noticed that those who take the latter have very thick skin, yet facial lipoatrophy, IE Fed?

I don't know, like I say I would never accuse, but talk about circumstantial evidence! Also why did Federer go out of his way to mention "Why are we not getting tested", and "They should test everyone who makes the quarters", this was after he played Nadal, who were the "We"?

 

[SublimeTennis]

I take steroids. Ask me anything!

Be more specific, "Steroids" can mean alot of things, specific please, I would love to ask you some questions. Thanks

 

[SublimeTennis]

You could not have done your argument a greater disservice with your so-called "evidence".

Lets start with the obvious premise that @zep called you out on. You cannot presume guilt. Guilt must be proven. You cannot support your idea that Nadal is doping based on the lack of evidence to refute his guilt. @zep asked for evidence not speculation. Let's take a dive into your sources shall we?

The first source is not condemning, hinting or implying in any way shape or form that Nadal is on Fuentes' list. Nadal is, in fact, the very one who is questioning why the list has not been publicly disclosed by court order - an act, which I may remind you, would incriminate himself, were your unfounded speculations about him true.

The second source at least passes a sanity check for being relevant to the discussion. But 1) Neither Dr. Fuentes or his list of secretly doping Spanish athletes are even mentioned, only a cursory and un-investigated quote by Yannick Noah. 2) The so called proof, is the very definition of circumstantial evidence - only damning absolutely through the eyes of someone who has already made up their mind to try and infer guilt.

Your third source is a lazy Google query. Before educating others on Google, you should be the first to know Google is a search engine, not a list of admissible evidence to your inputs.

The proof is in the pudding. The pudding is nowhere to be found.

What is the matter with you? Do you have ADHD or something? Or can't you read?

"Lets start with the obvious premise that @zep called you out on. You cannot presume guilt. Guilt must be proven. You cannot support your idea that Nadal is doping based on the lack of evidence to refute his guilt. @zep asked for evidence not speculation. Let's take a dive into your sources shall we?"

I have NEVER, ONCE, EVER said Nadal dopes, have you even read this thread, or are you just here to **** people off? I'm not even going to respond or waste my time, go read if you can what I wrote so you will stop embarrassing yourself. I do NOT KNOW if any tennis player uses Steroids or HGH, if you read this you would know that, your "challenge" was to source where people TALKED ABOUT Nadal being on the list, not that he was, if he was we'd know now wouldn't we?

They should have a test requirement of at least a 100 IQ before allowing people onto this forum.

 

[Kalin]

They should have a test requirement of at least a 100 IQ before allowing people onto this forum.

Please no! Where will I get my Rafa and Nole updates from then? Being in the company of Fed and Young Goat fans only will get boring soon!

 

[zep]

Sorry, I forgot all about you, probably because you are a useless dick. Next time there is a thing called "Google", just put in "Nadal, on list of Spanish doctor who prescribed Steroids"

He was on the list, or alleged which is what I said, but the doctor wouldn't release the names.

Funny that Federer, just after beating Nadal at Basel finals said "I can't understand why they don't check us for steroids", I wonder who he was referring to! But as I say, I have NO IDEA if he is or isn't, wouldn't be surprised though as I said, Tennis doesn't care, if it did they'd check more often.

Here you go;

http://www.tennishorts.com/tennis-drugs-cheats-could-be-named-and-shamed/
http://www.tennisnow.com/News/Doping,-Tennis,-Nadal---Connection-.aspx
https://www.google.com/#q=rafael+nadal+was+on+doctors+list+of+steroids

Are you kidding me? Is this a joke or what? You claimed to have evidence (no speculation) of Nadal's name being on that list from from "real articles". What you are giving me instead--

Link 1- Does not even talk about Nadal being on the list. It states that Nadal is irritated that the names were not revealed and quotes him on that.
Link 2- No mention of Fuentes.
Link 3- Yeah you did a google search.

Please stop pretending to be a stupid, I am sure you are smarter than that. It is ok that you made an incorrect statement. Most of us do at times but please, stop digging yourself a bigger hole with absurd posts like this one. Just accept that you were wrong and do the honorable thing and retract the statement. Thank you!

I have NEVER, ONCE, EVER said Nadal dopes, have you even read this thread, or are you just here to **** people off?

You claimed that Nadal's name was on the Fuentes list and also claimed that you have evidence to back that statement up. You failed to provide it just as we expected because there is no evidence to begin with.

 

[SublimeTennis]

Are you kidding me? Is this a joke or what? You claimed to have evidence (no speculation) of Nadal's name being on that list from from "real articles". What you are giving me instead--

Link 1- Does not even talk about Nadal being on the list. It states that Nadal is irritated that the names were not revealed and quotes him on that.
Link 2- No mention of Fuentes.
Link 3- Yeah you did a google search.

Please stop pretending to be a stupid, I am sure you are smarter than that. It is ok that you made an incorrect statement. Most of us do at times but please, stop digging yourself a bigger hole with absurd posts like this one. Just accept that you were wrong and do the honorable thing and retract the statement. Thank you!



You claimed that Nadal's name was on the Fuentes list and also claimed that you have evidence to back that statement up. You failed to provide it just as we expected because there is no evidence to begin with.

Listen, you can find MANY posts, where I find I'm wrong, and you know what I do, I say "Oh I was wrong on that, I was certain I was correct, thanks for the information".

If you read this thread, from the beginning, it was about two things I take, TEST and HGH injectable shot that forces your pituitary to produce more HGH. I went through my "Arnold Phase" when I was younger, so kind of getting back into it, both by the way with prescription. There have been FEROCIOUS threads on this forum that are like "He does use Roids", "He doesn't", etc. I made it clear that I DON'T KNOW, but that I had a "Theory" that might bridge the gap between the two, that is if your TEST is 4 times higher than normal, it just raises eyebrows, but they can't say "Oh you are using Roids", and they aren't, they are just raising their TEST.

I have gone out of my way to say it's UNFAIR to accuse anyone without concrete evidence,and when people do, I try to defend them by saying "That's circumstantial, where is your evidence", and yes I've proffered the idea about "Why not increse TEST and HGH when it's undetectable if they do it right? I DON'T see anything wrong with that, likewise there are many natural ways to increase TEST and HGH.

Now if this is just a "Gocha", that is you just want to make someone look bad with no other purpose, I understand, but am not interested, I'm sure there are many who would love to argue with you, and you can put them on your ignore list.

In regards to the doctor, I have read over and over that Nadal IS on that list, however the doctor refused to release the names, why? Because there is alot of money in keeping the names private, IE "Pay me X your name disappears". So just because we havent' seen his name on there, circumstantially, which is no way to judge, if we are honest he's probably on there, then again he may not be, we may never know, but and not just Nadal, they'd all be stupid to not see their doctor an get Bio-Identical homones like me, they are legal, safe, increase peformance, and are undetectable, and in my opinion I see nothing wrong with it. Now let's say Nadal is on there for TEST, nothing wrong with that, but he knows people are stupid, if they found out they would immediately accuse him of using STEROIDS, which TEST is in a sense, but it's not like heavy duty articifical injectible synthetic Test (Steroids), I made it clear that I had read many times he was on the list, are you now holding me to a impossible standard with your "Gotcha"? How can you accuse me of accusing Nadal when I have defended him saying that it's unfair to accuse without facts?

If you want to continue the "Gotcha", don't expect a response, read my posts from beginning to end since you are so interested in the greater good

 

[ctoth666]

Be more specific, "Steroids" can mean alot of things, specific please, I would love to ask you some questions. Thanks

Strictly anabolic steroids. I take testosterone, equipoise, and trenbolone currently.

 

[tennisdad65]

The only top 10 guy I suspect is Ferrer.

 

[SublimeTennis]

How does it benefit your tennis game? Or does it?

 

[SublimeTennis]

Strictly anabolic steroids. I take testosterone, equipoise, and trenbolone currently.

How does it benefit your tennis game? Or does it?

 

[mightyrick]

I haven't found any contrary evidence to the fact that Nadal is on that list, go to the Steroid forums and debate them, I was pointing it out, if you have contrary evidence source it or shut the mouth. And I am right about Federer, look up for example Rich Plano, look at his face and then Fed's, you can't miss it, their skin is very thick yet they have lipoatrophy, coincidence?

Well, it depends on your approach to legal matters. Some do prefer presumption of innocence. That means that an accusation must be adequately proven before a guilty verdict can be rendered. Now, you might feel that a few articles and a bunch of internet posts is adequate evidence, I don't know. But usually... better evidence is needed in a court of law. But it sounds like you are on the other side of the fence. Which is presumption of guilt. In other words, guilty until proven innocent. You have heard and read some accusations, and you are believing those accusations unless someone proves Nadal and/or Federer is innocent.

I'm not criticizing either approach. There are pros and cons of both approaches. But I will say that if you believe in the presumption of guilt, then you are going to always be at odds with people who believe in presumption of innocence. It is two completely different perspectives.

 

[kevaninho]

I don't like to accuse without having facts, but we do know Nadal's name was on that Spanish Doctors list of who he provided steroids to, and second, look at Federer's face close. First go online, look at the enormous, I mean the 22" bicep guys of today, their facial skin is thick, yet they have much facial fat loss, I can see someone a mile away whose used massive amounts of HGH and Testosterone, and IMO, not trying to **** anyone off, but look at Fed's face, his skin is incredibly thick, yet he looks old because he has so much facial fat loss, again a sign of TEST and HGH.

,

Are you talking about bodybuilders or tennis players? lol

 

[kevaninho]

Having had two sets of twins proves Fed doesn't take any steroids. lol

I don't completely rule out this as average Top player age nowadays getting higher and higher, but we don't see any serious evidence of steroids (check side effects) on big four IMHO. There are some weird things like Rafa sweating so much (not so anymore?), Federer sometimes looking like 45 but I don't see anything about Djokovic and Murray really. Djokovic's rages are below average for a Slavic Eastern European male. If they are doing it, they have some extremely skilled nutritionists arranging it with no side effects and look natural.

Sorry dude, but being on roids doesn't mean you cant have kids lol Ronnie Coleman, the most successful bodybuilder ever, has kids, and he will have been using steroids for years. Don't believe everything doctors or media say.

As for 'rages' LOL If you knew about steroids, youd know that they don't cause suddenly a calm person to be a maniac. They make assholes even more assholes, not nice guys into assholes.

FTR Nole seems a nice guy, and I don't think Fed has been juicing.

 

[ctoth666]

How does it benefit your tennis game? Or does it?

It doesn't help my tennis at all. In fact, I avoid playing tennis now because it's such a miserable experience. I weigh 240, most of which is muscle, and it makes me clinically obese. Lower back pumps, shortness of breath, and poor cardio tolerance in general make it difficult. I was quite a good player too at one point. I just have too much muscle, basically, to be an efficient athlete. But tennis players are not taking anabolic steroids. I can say that definitively. There are other negative side effects, such as bloating, excessive sweating, prostate enlargement, higher blood pressure, etc things that would make being a high level tennis player a nightmare. i sweat buckets just doing bicep curls. It's just too taxing on the body.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

That has to be the stupidest thing I have read in a while. If you accuse someone, it's your duty to prove it. You are the accuser here. How about you give me the links to some of those real articles that categorically state that Nadal was on the list (no speculation)? The list was never made public. No one knows who's on that list. Nadal, by the way has asked multiple times to make it public.

Nadal has asked for this list to be made public after the judge in the case gave a clear indication that she (or the people behind the scenes) doesn't intend to move on with the case.

How brave of the Bull to do that!

Do you think that he might have been getting some inside info about how the process is going?

 

[SublimeTennis]

Well, it depends on your approach to legal matters. Some do prefer presumption of innocence. That means that an accusation must be adequately proven before a guilty verdict can be rendered. Now, you might feel that a few articles and a bunch of internet posts is adequate evidence, I don't know. But usually... better evidence is needed in a court of law. But it sounds like you are on the other side of the fence. Which is presumption of guilt. In other words, guilty until proven innocent. You have heard and read some accusations, and you are believing those accusations unless someone proves Nadal and/or Federer is innocent.

I'm not criticizing either approach. There are pros and cons of both approaches. But I will say that if you believe in the presumption of guilt, then you are going to always be at odds with people who believe in presumption of innocence. It is two completely different perspectives.

No, you are taking one part of many posts and charging me with charging Nadal of using Steroids, COME ON GUYS this is getting aggravating, read my posts, how many times do I have to say what you just did, "It is totally unfair to accuse them of using steroids, and I talked more about Fed than Nadal, only because of cicumstantial evidence", one guy flat out accused and I said it was wrong, we have no evidence, even if Nadal is on that list doesn't prove anything, it could be TEST or anything, doesn't PROVE anything.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop misquoting me, yea I said that, but my entire point was an alternative explanation to the black and white "Do they use Roids or not", I suggested perhaps they were doing what I just started, TEST and HGH injectible booster, undetectable, so read the totality of what I wrote, and take your own advice don't accuse without reading all of the evidence, and if you plan on replying don't until you read everything that I wrote, I've NEVER said or accused them of using roids, that would be irresponsible.

 

[SublimeTennis]

It doesn't help my tennis at all. In fact, I avoid playing tennis now because it's such a miserable experience. I weigh 240, most of which is muscle, and it makes me clinically obese. Lower back pumps, shortness of breath, and poor cardio tolerance in general make it difficult. I was quite a good player too at one point. I just have too much muscle, basically, to be an efficient athlete. But tennis players are not taking anabolic steroids. I can say that definitively. There are other negative side effects, such as bloating, excessive sweating, prostate enlargement, higher blood pressure, etc things that would make being a high level tennis player a nightmare. i sweat buckets just doing bicep curls. It's just too taxing on the body.

This might be the best post of the entire thread, that is high dose roids do NOT help. Now I can say that what I'm doing helps, I'm 39, I take TEST, just androgel, and I take Sermomolin and GHRP-2 Injections, they simply increase TEST and HGH to similar levels to me at a teen, so I'm "Stronger", not necessarily physically stronger but more "Ump" if that makes sense, more energy, more drive.

Another question if you do not mind, if say Fed took just Dianabol, just a basic Steroid, with thousands upon thousands of hits, do you think his arm would be bigger than it is? To me, none of these guys seem like they are on steroids, people talk about Nadal's muscularity, but he's not that big.

 

[SublimeTennis]

Are you talking about bodybuilders or tennis players? lol

Yea looking at that it appeared I say tennis players had 22" arms. No listen, I just started this stuff, I used to be big naturally, but when I look at these enormous mountainous body builders, they have super thick skin, yet facial lipoatrophy, then I look at Fed and say "Wait a minute, that is similar", but you can't accuse off that, was just throwing that out there.

 

[SublimeTennis]

Nadal has asked for this list to be made public after the judge in the case gave a clear indication that she (or the people behind the scenes) doesn't intend to move on with the case.

How brave of the Bull to do that!

Do you think that he might have been getting some inside info about how the process is going?

Yes so did Armstrong, bad argument, if he was on that list, sure he gave the doctor cash to take his name off and then demand it be shown, use logic, not saying that happened, but trying to get you to think.

 

[mightyrick]

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop misquoting me, yea I said that, but my entire point was an alternative explanation to the black and white "Do they use Roids or not", I suggested perhaps they were doing what I just started, TEST and HGH injectible booster, undetectable, so read the totality of what I wrote, and take your own advice don't accuse without reading all of the evidence, and if you plan on replying don't until you read everything that I wrote, I've NEVER said or accused them of using roids, that would be irresponsible.

Well, first, I didn't quote you. So I'm not misquoting you. Secondly, while you may not be "accusing" people of things, you are definitely insinuating. You are trying to hedge that you are merely "suggesting" that they might be doing things, but honestly, that is nothing but passive-aggressive insinuation. I've read all of your posts completely and thoroughly and see you talking about all sorts of circumstantial things which you "suggest" (read: insinuate) that they may be using performance enhancing drugs (forget the semantics of "roids" versus test/HGH). Let's be adults and call them what they are. Performance enhancing drugs.

My suggestion to you would be to have the courage of your convictions and take a stand. If you believe Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Ferrer take (or took) performance enhancing drugs -- then just say so. Stop hedging with semantics around the words "suggest" and "accuse". Stop hedging with semantics around whether we are talking about Dianabol/HGH/Testosterone/Blood Doping. Let's call them what they are -- performance enhancing drugs/activities.

You are allowed to have an opinion. Whether the opinion is safe, logical, or baseless really has no bearing on anything.

 

[ctoth666]

This might be the best post of the entire thread, that is high dose roids do NOT help. Now I can say that what I'm doing helps, I'm 39, I take TEST, just androgel, and I take Sermomolin and GHRP-2 Injections, they simply increase TEST and HGH to similar levels to me at a teen, so I'm "Stronger", not necessarily physically stronger but more "Ump" if that makes sense, more energy, more drive.

Another question if you do not mind, if say Fed took just Dianabol, just a basic Steroid, with thousands upon thousands of hits, do you think his arm would be bigger than it is? To me, none of these guys seem like they are on steroids, people talk about Nadal's muscularity, but he's not that big.

It would absolutely be bigger. Not only that. Anabolic steroids make everything bigger, and these guys are puny. I make federer look like a schoolgirl in terms of size. And my ass is twice as big as nadal' lol. Not bragging but it's just for reference. I don't know about the offseason, but these guys are not competing on steroids that's a fact. Dbol would cause serious problems for a tennis player. You'd see guys cramping up left and right. And their arms would get so tight they couldn't hold the racket. And injections are out of the question too. Delts and glutes are the most typical sites. Post injection pain is real and hinders muscle contractions not what a tennis player needs

 

[SublimeTennis]

Well, first, I didn't quote you. So I'm not misquoting you. Secondly, while you may not be "accusing" people of things, you are definitely insinuating. You are trying to hedge that you are merely "suggesting" that they might be doing things, but honestly, that is nothing but passive-aggressive insinuation. I've read all of your posts completely and thoroughly and see you talking about all sorts of circumstantial things which you "suggest" (read: insinuate) that they may be using performance enhancing drugs (forget the semantics of "roids" versus test/HGH). Let's be adults and call them what they are. Performance enhancing drugs.

My suggestion to you would be to have the courage of your convictions and take a stand. If you believe Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Ferrer take (or took) performance enhancing drugs -- then just say so. Stop hedging with semantics around the words "suggest" and "accuse". Stop hedging with semantics around whether we are talking about Dianabol/HGH/Testosterone/Blood Doping. Let's call them what they are -- performance enhancing drugs/activities.

You are allowed to have an opinion. Whether the opinion is safe, logical, or baseless really has no bearing on anything.

Whatever man, you are like a nagging old woman, even if I make it clear it's still not good enough for you, even if it's in writing still not good enough, go bother someone else so they can put you on their ignore list, you got problems dude.

 

[SublimeTennis]

It would absolutely be bigger. Not only that. Anabolic steroids make everything bigger, and these guys are puny. I make federer look like a schoolgirl in terms of size. And my ass is twice as big as nadal' lol. Not bragging but it's just for reference. I don't know about the offseason, but these guys are not competing on steroids that's a fact. Dbol would cause serious problems for a tennis player. You'd see guys cramping up left and right. And their arms would get so tight they couldn't hold the racket. And injections are out of the question too. Delts and glutes are the most typical sites. Post injection pain is real and hinders muscle contractions not what a tennis player needs

Wow where were you during all of the other thread, when everyone was accusing all of the players of using steroids. They are tiny, I agree, and heh man it's not bragging if it's true! I'm one of those guys who can get big, I have great muscle bellies, and ironically my lower body has natural muscle, guys bigger than me envy my legs, my calves and I don't even work them, upstairs though, man it's hard, I've tried everything from the "Arnold Program", 20-30 sets per bodypart, to Dorians low set lots of rest routine, and as I say I can get big, not big like you, nor cut, can never get cut no matter what, had Lipo twice. I'm told some people genetically have more muscle cells than others, others more fat cells than others, and that's set from birth. Have a friend, he never works out, yet he looks like a tiny Holyfield, pisses me off

 

[zep]

Listen, you can find MANY posts, where I find I'm wrong, and you know what I do, I say "Oh I was wrong on that, I was certain I was correct, thanks for the information".

If you read this thread, from the beginning, it was about two things I take, TEST and HGH injectable shot that forces your pituitary to produce more HGH. I went through my "Arnold Phase" when I was younger, so kind of getting back into it, both by the way with prescription. There have been FEROCIOUS threads on this forum that are like "He does use Roids", "He doesn't", etc. I made it clear that I DON'T KNOW, but that I had a "Theory" that might bridge the gap between the two, that is if your TEST is 4 times higher than normal, it just raises eyebrows, but they can't say "Oh you are using Roids", and they aren't, they are just raising their TEST.

I have gone out of my way to say it's UNFAIR to accuse anyone without concrete evidence,and when people do, I try to defend them by saying "That's circumstantial, where is your evidence", and yes I've proffered the idea about "Why not increse TEST and HGH when it's undetectable if they do it right? I DON'T see anything wrong with that, likewise there are many natural ways to increase TEST and HGH.

Now if this is just a "Gocha", that is you just want to make someone look bad with no other purpose, I understand, but am not interested, I'm sure there are many who would love to argue with you, and you can put them on your ignore list.

In regards to the doctor, I have read over and over that Nadal IS on that list, however the doctor refused to release the names, why? Because there is alot of money in keeping the names private, IE "Pay me X your name disappears". So just because we havent' seen his name on there, circumstantially, which is no way to judge, if we are honest he's probably on there, then again he may not be, we may never know, but and not just Nadal, they'd all be stupid to not see their doctor an get Bio-Identical homones like me, they are legal, safe, increase peformance, and are undetectable, and in my opinion I see nothing wrong with it. Now let's say Nadal is on there for TEST, nothing wrong with that, but he knows people are stupid, if they found out they would immediately accuse him of using STEROIDS, which TEST is in a sense, but it's not like heavy duty articifical injectible synthetic Test (Steroids), I made it clear that I had read many times he was on the list, are you now holding me to a impossible standard with your "Gotcha"? How can you accuse me of accusing Nadal when I have defended him saying that it's unfair to accuse without facts?

If you want to continue the "Gotcha", don't expect a response, read my posts from beginning to end since you are so interested in the greater good

I did not comment on your theory because-- (a) I am not qualified enough to comment on the subject, (b) I don't care much about theories based on receding hairline and such things. It was your opinion and you are free to have one. I have no issues with it.

I only pointed out something you presented as a fact-- that Nadal's name was on the Fuentes list. You are only entitled to your opinions but not facts. Strong opinions don't count as facts. If you present something as a fact, you must be able to back it up to have any credibility. Now after a number posts back and forth you still haven't been able to do that. You posted one of the stupidest posts one would ever see as proof where you gave us three links that prove absolutely nothing. Now instead of admitting that you made a mistake you are still hanging on to your "I have read it" bullsh!t. Even here you are saying "In regards to the doctor, I have read over and over that Nadal IS on that list" --- fine, but where did you read it? Give us a link that categorically implicate Nadal. If you have read it over and over again, it should not be that hard to produce a link! You claimed to have definitive proof from real articles but till now you haven't produced diddly squat! It is not my gotcha moment, couldn't care less about having one against an internet nobody like you-- but your dishonesty is for everyone to see.