A realistic GOAT what if

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by timeyer, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. timeyer

    timeyer New User

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    What if Fed wins three more slams, two wimbledons and a farewell US open. That would put him at 16 without a French. Assuming he makes the French final again, he'd have over 20 finals.

    Clearly that tops Sampras.

    But what if Nadal wins 3-4 more slams, including a US open. He'd be at 8-9 total slams, but with a complete place setting.

    I don't see Nadal lasting long enough to win many more than 10 slams. Not only is his game tough on his body, he seems to care for life outside of tennis.

    I guess it comes down to quantity vs. versatility. I'm likely to lean towards Fed. Yes, I'm a fan of his smooth classical game, but he really isn't Clay deficient, just overmatched. It would be interesting to know how many titles he has on clay.

    I think there's a real chance this could be a message board argument in 2014.
     
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  2. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    On clay, Federer has won Hamburg master 4 times (in 2002,4, 5 and 7). He has won 3 other titles: Munich (2003), Gstaad (2004) and Estoril (last year). That makes 7 titles altogether.
    Nadal has won 22 tournaments on clay:
    4 slams: RG (2005, 6, 7, 8)
    4 Monte-Carlo master (2005,6,7,8)
    4 Barcelona (2005,6,7,8)
    3 Rome master (2005,6,7)
    2 Stuttgart (2005,7)
    1 Hamburg master (2008)
    His other titles are Sopot (2004), his very first title, Costa do Sauipe, Acapulco and Bastad in 2005.
     
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  3. saram

    saram Legend

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    In my opinion, if Rafa can win the US Open, he will become the GOAT regardless of totals in slam counts. Just when everyone assumed Roger was the GOAT--Rafa came along and thumped him on his home turf. Regardless of his tenure at the top--Rafa has just shown he is the greatest to play the sport on multiple surfaces.
     
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  4. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. If Nadal wins another 3 Wimbledons, 2 French, 2 Aussie and also wins 3 US Opens then yes he would be GOAT, or at least a contender. Otherwise, no, at least not yet:)
     
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  5. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Federer has already done something extraordinary: 4 slam finals for 2 years in a row (2006,7) and 3 slams won + master cup for 3 calendar years (2004,6,7), which to me is quite unique and mindboggling. I know Connors did it once and Wilander too- I'm talking about 3 slams, not master cup- (Sampras never) but 3 times is truly insane!
     
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  6. kingdaddy41788

    kingdaddy41788 Hall of Fame

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    There's also the fact that the grass at Wimbledon doesn't play like grass anymore. If they want it to play differently they should just change the surface instead of mutilating what grass court tennis is supposed to be.
     
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  7. thalivest

    thalivest Banned

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    Tennis has existed for more than 16 years. The real GOAT at this point is clearly Laver, and either Federer or Nadal have a long way to go before reaching him, although Rafa IMO arguably has the better shot only because he has so much younger and his possabilities are more limitless than Federer at this point. Borg is also above any of Sampras, Federer, or Nadal at this point IMO. Tilden, Budge, Gonzales, even Rosewall you could argue as well.

    The myth that the GOAT duel is between Sampras and Federer with Nadal only chasing those 2 is extremely short sighted.
     
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  8. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    I disagree. If Nadal did a calendar grand slam, that would be unbelievable. To me Federer and Nadal could both become GOOP, each one with different achievements but equally spectacular records...
     
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  9. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    That's why I said GOOP, not GOAT... (greatest of open era)
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2009
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  10. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    Yep I agree, it's Laver:)

    And just for the record Connors is currently way ahead of Nadal in any true GOAT test!!!
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2009
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  11. thalivest

    thalivest Banned

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    What does GOOP stand for. :)
     
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  12. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    You've hit the nail on the head Sir:) Wimbledon grass was too fast in 90's, now it's too slow. Bring back the 60's/70's/80's grass, and let's see some true all-court varied great and exciting to watch tennis!!!
     
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  13. kingdaddy41788

    kingdaddy41788 Hall of Fame

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    Agreed. It plays almost like clay now. It's ridiculous.
     
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  14. saram

    saram Legend

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    So what current S&V players will come and liven up tennis at Wimbledon? Stepanek? Come on, man....
     
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  15. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    Well it's been so slow for the last few years, no sensible player is gonna S+V!!!

    I'm sure many Pros would S+V if the grass was fast enough, Federer would for a start I'm sure:):)
     
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  16. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Federer HAS TO make 15 slams though. Winning so many slams a year for several years and still not break the record of # of slams overall would look bad on his resume IMO, it would reflect badly on his longevity and bring arguments to the people who claim the field was weak during his dominating years. He doesn't have the record of weeks at #1 (although he has it for consecutive) or # of masters won. He really, really has to break # of slams for the sake of his GOOP status! (or 14 with RG)
     
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  17. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    Can you please tell us what a GOOP is?
     
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  18. saram

    saram Legend

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    Nope, says he doesn't like to do it.
     
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  19. tennis_hand

    tennis_hand Hall of Fame

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    federer now has averagely more than 1 slams for each year since he turned pro. it's like u win at least 1 slam to celebrate every year.

    Pete sampras has averagely 1 Slam every pro year. 14 slams over 14 year pro career.
     
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  20. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    If it was fast ENOUGH, then he would like to:):)
     
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  21. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    Does anyone know what a GOOP is, or am I missing a really obvious joke?
     
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  22. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Greatest Of OPen era.
     
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  23. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    Wouldn't that be a GOOE?
     
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  24. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    I guess it should but GOOP sounds much better!
     
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  25. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    Yep, to be fair, it really does:)
     
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  26. JoshDragon

    JoshDragon Hall of Fame

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    What makes you think that Laver is the GOAT?
     
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  27. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    Well if you look at how he was rated as a GOOSE and a GOOP then he is the GOAT:)
     
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  28. saram

    saram Legend

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    That's pretty good....:)
     
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  29. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    Nadal may end up the best in his era even if he gets less slams than Fed. Nadal already has a dominant record v Fed and has already won 5 of the big 6. He only needs the US Open to complete the whole set. Meanwhile Fed needs to turn around the rivalry with Nadal by beating him in some slam finals and he needs to win the Davis cup some time(s), the French Open and singles Olympic Gold.
     
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  30. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Agreed and endorsed. If Rafa wins a true Grand Slam, I believe that would put him above Fed--if not Rosewall, Tilden, or Laver.

    Agreed. At present about 20 players are ahead of Nadal, including Tilden, Rosewall, Budge, Sampras, Borg, Gonzales, Perry, Lendl, Vines, Connors, Kramer, Cochet, Hoad, Lacoste, Emerson, McEnroe, and Newcombe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2009
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  31. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    oh yeah... he didnt even use Nike stuff.. how could he be GOAT, GOOP GOOSE or any animal..

    now if he wore breathe cages it would be a completely different stuff now wouldnt it JOsh?
     
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  32. Cyan

    Cyan Hall of Fame

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    You can't be GOAT when you have a 6-13 H2H against a rival. :shock:

    Bud Collins and other tennis pundits said so.
     
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  33. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    Slams don't mean everything when considering the Greatest of All Time. People like McEnroe didn't always play the Australian Open as he thought the tourney at Madison Square Garden was more important. At that time the AO had to offer payment guarantees just to get the top pros to show up.

    I think total year end rankings at number 1 plus the competition the player faced in his era are a better guide. Of course, you have to account for the amature/pro rules change in Laver's era. I love Federer but IMHO Sampras had tougher competitors to face from day one.
     
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  34. JoshDragon

    JoshDragon Hall of Fame

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    That's right. The breathe cage make the champion. I'm amazed that Laver was able to win a match without breathe cages. ;)
     
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  35. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    I agree on that too. No disrespect to Federer. He is a great great player. To me a GOAT has to do the following when he retires to be qualified as the true GOAT:

    A Golden career Slam (all GS + Olympic Gold, preferred in singles)
    A winning record against all the top 10 players in career
    Most career titles all time
    #1 during most of the career
    Hold some kind of winning streak in all time record

    There can only be ONE GOAT and the record should stand at least for a couple decades if not more.
     
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  36. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Half the people who post in this forum are a complete joke. Now if Nadal can win the US Opeb he's....

    And....

    ...wait, there's more.....

    So with things like this being said, where does leave Agassi??? He already has all4. If Nadal can win the US Open he'll be anointed as this, that and the 5th, yet Agassi has already done it.

    Yet Dre get pissed and sh***ed on to no end around here. I can't begin begin to count the times people here have spit on his grave, but now are ready to anoint Nadal for something Agassi did 10 years ago. You gotta luv this logic!!
     
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  37. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    You have just introduced yourself to the TTW Nadal Fan Logical-Deductive myth construction...
     
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  38. henryshli

    henryshli Semi-Pro

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    Only because there isn't a suitable surface to do so. If the grass plays like they used to then of course more pros would S+V.

    Don't forget Karlovic a very average player still does well on grass even now.
     
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  39. henryshli

    henryshli Semi-Pro

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    and how would the ranking points look if they only had one slam and may be a couple of 500pts events on caly each year?
     
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  40. richied

    richied Rookie

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    If the 'what if ' senario plays out, I think we could be closer to finding the GOAT. But, If Fed can't level out the H2H or at least win a few more slams against Nadal than I don't care if he wins 20 slams. If your greatest rival is kicking your arse when it matters the most then something is wrong. IMO (and I'm a Fed fan).
     
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  41. JoshDragon

    JoshDragon Hall of Fame

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    Nadal, is in a much different position than Agassi was. First of all Andre was already 29 when he won RG and completed the grand slam, Nadal, would be only 23 if he wins the US this year. In many people's opinion (including my own) it's more impressive to win the majors at a younger age.

    Secondly, Agassi had a horrible record against his biggest rival, Sampras when they were playing at the majors. Where as Nadal has usually gotten the best of Federer.

    Nadal, also, has the tendancy to win the majors quickly. He won the French and Australian on his debut in the finals. Some of those majors took Andre forever to win. It took him 2 semi-finals and 2 finals to win RG and 2 semi-finals and 1 final to win the US.

    Nadal has proven to be much more consistent (so far) than Andre.
     
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  42. Cyan

    Cyan Hall of Fame

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    Laver is the GOAT.
     
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  43. JoshDragon

    JoshDragon Hall of Fame

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    Five greatest players of all time:

    1. Federer
    2. Sampras
    3. Nadal
    4. Laver
    5. Borg
     
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  44. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    lovely list...

    i sugest a few changes though...

    1 - Nadal
    2 - Federer
    3 - Nadal
    4 - Barney
    5 - The small guy form Fantasy Island...


    you Nadal fans neve cease to amaze me!
     
    #44
  45. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    That is not what I said, you didn't read properly. I didn't say if nadal wins USO... I said if Nadal manages a CALENDAR SLAM. When did Agassi ever do a CALENDAR SLAM?
    Also I didn't say GOAT, I said GOOP (greatest of open era). I'm perfectly aware of everything Laver and older players have achieved.
     
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  46. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    meanwhile, he still needs to achieve what Andre achieved. you see... your opinion on how good a player will perform is not enough to make him Win titles and achieve. he really has to win the titles.. wishfull thinking of his fans doenst count as an achievement!
     
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  47. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    But he's way ahead of Andre for a chance to achieve it. At Nadal's age, Andre wasn't even a tenth of the player Nadal is.
    Agassi: 17 titles
    1 slam
    2 masters
    year end ranking at 22 #9
    Nadal: 32 titles
    6 slams
    12 masters
    #1
    I would say it's a nice headstart for the youngster...
     
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  48. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    like i said. he hasnt achieved it yet (not that i dont see him doing it) so my point remains: he is not yet above Agassi in achievements.

    and no! winning USO wont make him GOAT or GOOP, GOOSE OR GOOBER OR GATUSO... (a calendar slam neither since Laver has done it twice)

    Again... you nadal fans can wish whatever you want. wishfull thinking is not an achievement for your favourite player.

    and yes.. not bad of an headstart... (Becker won Wimbledon by 17 and still..)


    ps: and placing him above Laver like that teenager with a fixation on nike gear did is ___________ (fill the blank at your will)
     
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  49. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    Big surprise :roll:
     
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  50. bolo

    bolo G.O.A.T.

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    All the grand slams are more or less the same. If federer has 16 and nadal only has 10, federer will be pro era goat, not really all that much to discuss.

    The key is that everyone knows that there are four tournaments to win ahead of time. If you want to develop a style that dominates on one surface (nadal on clay) but is less effective on 3 other surfaces, that has some advantages and disadvantages for your GOAT chances. If you want to develop a game that is effective on all surfaces but that cannot dominate any single one (agassi) that also has some advantages and disadvantages. Imo there is no real (marginal sure) extracredit for winning on all four. Dominating two like sampras or 3 to a smaller degree like federer is just as impressive.
     
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