Acceptable number of double faults?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by ajmack, May 11, 2010.

  1. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    I think this is a good point. The more aces and service winners you get, the more you can tolerate doubles. My old tennis encyclopedia lists the most double faults in a season going to Michael Stitch. But he finished that year @ #2. I bet his opponents hated knowing that even if he missed his first, he was coming at them again with the second. Anything your opponent hates is good to do.

    If your serve is just a way to begin a point, then it's different. In that case zero doubles would be your goal.
     
    #51
  2. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    As said by someone previously, it depends when they come--better when you're ahead on the score and not good when you're behind. Generally, 5% is acceptable. If you don't double fault occasionally, you're not trying hard enough.
     
    #52
  3. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    The total number of double faults YOU hit must be more than matched by the number of total unreturnables you solicit.
    You can also count weak sitter returns, but then you'd have to consider that part of your normal second serve.
     
    #53
  4. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    2 per game, max.
     
    #54
  5. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    As Lee said earlier, you should be able to hit zero DFs per match if you want to. Zero is the correct goal if your second serves are not being punished, that is they are good enough. If your second serve is getting smacked around and losing you points, then you need something extra on your second serve and you need to take a little off of your first serve so you don't have to hit many seconds. This will lead to some DFs (which is the reason Pros hit DFs).
     
    #55
  6. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    That might be true, but what the pros do isn't always optimal. This is one case, and I can prove it. Several times I've seen stats like this: 1st serve percentage, 75%, points won on 1st serve, 75%. Then it will say, points won on 2nd serve, 40%.

    See the problem? If they used their 1st serve stroke on 2nd serve, they'd win (75% * 75%) 56.25% of those points, much better than the 40% they're getting by hitting a "safer" 2nd serve. The media doesn't say what the 2nd serve percentage is, but even if we generously assume that it goes in 100% of the time, they'd still be better off using the less safe 1st serve. Do the math. Playing this way they'd get a double one-in-sixteen points served, but they'd still win more often than by playing it safe.

    To figure answers to questions like "How many double faults is acceptable?", we need DATA, not slogans.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
    #56
  7. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    Sorry Charlie, the data you seek doesn't bear out the advice you give.

    When analysed in the manner you propose, statisticians note: "The tactic of serving two first serves works best when the server is winning less than half the second serves and more than 70% of good first serves. There were at least 33 matches and possibly as many as 60 matches at Wimbledon this year where two first serves would have worked better than one first and one second. In past years Sampras often sent down two first serves but he had such a good first serve that he could get away with it. Lesser mortals would also benefit when the occasion arises, but the psychological barrier of sending down so many double faults is probably the major drawback. It is not a tactic for the faint hearted, especially when facing critical break or set points."

    The problem is that there are 254 singles matches at Wimbledon (the surface where first serves are the most devastating). So less than an eighth (perhaps as high as less than a quarter) of the time would your advice work, on grass. My guess is the OP isn't playing on grass so the real life stat is likely well south of that.

    In addition, if a Pro wanted to use the tactic at the start of the Wimbledon match (when there are no stats for the match yet), he would have no way of knowing what his second serve winning percentage would have been that day, so all he would have to go on would be the less than 12% overall stat, pretty poor IMO.
     
    #57
  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    SteadyEddy...
    You are forgetting one very important factor.....
    The first first serve is done under moderate pressure.
    The Second first serve is done under extreme pressure, and the ball will not go in nearly the same percentage as the first first serve.
    I assume, as a fellow tennis player, you know this, but forgot all about mental pressure affecting your service motion.
     
    #58
  9. skiracer55

    skiracer55 Hall of Fame

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    Let's go back to the OP...

    ...clearly, double faulting 5 times in one game is not a good idea. The simple answer, as Lee D says, to how many DFs are acceptable is "none". But you could also say the same thing for missed passing shots, if the one you miss costs you the match. So looking at the OP, my points are:

    - Ask yourself why you're DFing that much. It might be because you're trying to go for too much...either on the first serve, second serve, or both...but the chances are you have something mechanically wrong with your serve. Don't think about focusing on "reducing double faults", focus on cleaning up your service motion and the DFs will take care of themselves.

    - Stats are important, but don't let them rule your life. Let's say, for example, that you decide that 4 DFs a match is okay. Well, if you only DF 3 times but one of them is on match point down, what should you conclude? That 4 DFs a match is too many? Nope, that DFing on match point down is a Bad Thing. On the other hand, if you DF 15 times, but still win the match, is that okay? You won, so what difference did it make? Maybe nothing in that match, but it might go against you in the next. So don't get too caught up in the numbers game. To take another stroke, I like to get a lot of returns back and make the other guy play, even if they are just block returns. I don't care what the actual percentages are, but if my opponent is just sailing through his service games and I'm not making him do much more than hit serves, I'll start thinking about just getting a few more returns back, whatever that number turns out to be...
     
    #59
  10. spot

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    For the people who think that zero doublefaults shoudl be the goal- do you also think that zero unforced errors should be the goal?
     
    #60
  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Wake up, SPOT...
    We say you should be ABLE to serve 3 sets without double faulting. That doesn't mean you CHOOSE TO PUSH every serve in, you can sometimes go for something beyond your normal second serve.....and then run the risk of a double fault, because you're going for MORE.
    If you are not ABLE to serve 50 serves without a double fault, your second serve if FAULTY.
     
    #61
  12. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    But, but,...what you put in bold is the point I was making! The OP's question about an "acceptable number of double faults" will vary according to circumstances. There's not one size that fits all. Sometimes, a strategy likely to yield zero doubles is NOT the way to go.
    Maybe. If the coach's words "Never double fault" are playing in the back of his mind, that could easily mess with his serve. But if a coach gives the green light for going for it on 2nd serve, sometimes, he might feel ok going for it.

    My own view is the advice, "Get your second serve in, even if you have to push it in." is better advice at the lower levels, like in the juniors. At higher levels they eat up safe serves so much that the "safe" serve isn't really that safe, and no one notices this.

    Same thing happens in football, coaches say that running is the way to go. At the lower levels, the QB can't throw and his receivers drop lots of passes. But at the pro level the QB is very accurate and the hands of the receiver are sure. But they don't notice this, and in vain they keep it on the ground like the '67 Packers. Sports people! :rolleyes:
     
    #62
  13. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Wake up Lee- having the goal of never double faulting is just as ridiculous as having the goal of never hitting an unforced error. Sure you could have that as a goal but you would be missing a whole lot of other opportunities.

    Having the goal of never doublefaulting to me is absolutely ridiculous. People just have an easier time recognizing the points you lose by putting the ball into the net on a second serve than they do the ones the receiver puts away because of a weak second serve in the middle of the box. Most players could virtually eliminate their doublefaults by only trying to put the ball into the middle of the box everytime but to me thats not at all a worthy goal.
     
    #63
  14. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Actually, for a tennis player, you completeley missed the point.
    NOBODY ever said you should never double fault.
    Nope, instead, we said you should have the ability to hit 50 out of 50 second serves IN, and CAN play sets without doublefaulting if you so choose!
    Get it?
    Prolly not. Too dense and one track minded, you are.
     
    #64
  15. Steady Eddy

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    Yes, the double fault losses the point, but so does any error after the point has begun. Why be so much more afraid of making an error serving than any other time? I think the answer is when we begin tennis, we double fault so often that we obsess about it. We get the unrealistic, (and too timid), idea that we should play the second serve as safe as possible. This is probably only the best option against a rank beginner, (who won't return ANY kind of serve). The higher up you go, the more those timid serves will get you in trouble.
     
    #65
  16. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    SteadyEddy...
    You and SPOT should play a set against each other....at very low levels.
    You both hit out on your second serves, doublefaulting constantly, but hitting some nice unreturnables too.
    Makes for bad tennis at any level.
     
    #66
  17. Steady Eddy

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    Also, what no one has mentioned is the role the first serve plays in double faults. After all, the more often your first serve goes in, the less doubles you'll have. It's not only up to the second serve. Get your first serve in more often and you'll put less pressure on your second. I think your first serve should go in 50% of the time. If it's going in less than that, take something off it. Some guys have first serves that go in like 10% of the time. Even if it's unreturnable, that won't play much of a role in the match because of its low frequency.
     
    #67
  18. spot

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    Huh? What are you talking about?

    Seems to me there are a lot of people saying that you shouldn't ever double fault.
     
    #68
  19. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Who said anything about that? If your first and second serve each go in 75% of the time, you'll only double fault about one in sixteen points. That's only about two to three times per set. Yeah, that's not ZERO times, but 3 points in a set isn't very significant.
     
    #69
  20. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Yep, and they're wrong.
     
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  21. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Not really getting on you two guy's cases, but you have to understand.....
    NOBODY said you should never double fault.
    We said you should be able to hit second serves IN 100% of the time IF YOU DECIDE TO! Do you understand the difference?
    I'm a bad falling 4.0, can hit second serve twists out wide duece court 10 out of 10 tries, can hit topspin second serve wide, into the body, or wide left 50 out of 50 tries, can hit sliced lefty out wides ad court 70% of the tries, and all with a much faster swing than any of my first flat serves.
    That's a bad 4.0 serve, lefty, with an audible humming sound and an oval ball.
    If you plan to be better, you'd better at least have an equal serve.
     
    #71
  22. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with Steady and Spot. Errors happen. DFs happen.

    What I have noticed is that players who push their serve in so they can get it in DF as much or almost as much as someone who goes for more. This is because they DF for the same reasons I do: Wind, sun, pressure.

    In a recent match, I played two ladies who pushed their first and second serves into the box. As the match grew more tense, they missed some second serves. By the time that match ended, I suspect they had the same number of DFs as I did. The difference was that I had more service winners to balance my DFs, whereas they did not.

    So how many DFs are acceptable, IMHO?

    One less than the number that would cost you the match.
     
    #72
  23. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Lee- I jsut posted a bunch of quotes saying that DF's should never happen. And I am just syaing thats ridiculous.

    Lee- it seems to me you are arguing over a different point that I am not making. I think every player could decide to get virtually 100% of their second serves in if thats all they care about- to me thats absolutely ridiculous and they should be going for more on their second serve even if it means they occasionally double fault.

    And I just posted several quotes of people saying you should never double fault.
     
    #73
  24. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    I think that having the skill level to be able to hit zero UEs is a goal. It is likely not optimal to lower your current level of play to get close to zero, but it is optimal to raise your prowess to the point where you can hit your current preferred stroke quality (or higher) and happen to not hit any UEs.
     
    #74
  25. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Having the ability to never double fault is different from never doublefaulting during a match.
    A match, should you so choose, you can go for more. And maybe DF sometimes. But having the ABILITY to hit your second serve into the box, wide left, wide right, into the body, and different spins and depth, is a given. You need this skill.
    Errors are YOUR DUMB MISTAKE!
    Say on match point, you double fault trying to get it in. IT"S YOUR FAULT! You did not practice enough to be able to avoid double faults.
     
    #75
  26. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    I agree with you (as do tennis statisticians). The hard part is, it is an unlikely scenario, statistically and the only way to be confident that you happen to be in this unusual circumstance is after numerous points have been played (to give you the data that today is one of those days) so by the time you figure it out, the match outcome may be a forgone conclusion.

    I do support such a midmatch re-evaluation though. It is not something I currently do, but after this discussion I will add it to my matchplay strategy.

    BTW my post which you originally commented on (#55) was to say that you should have the skill level to hit zero DFs but you should choose to hit higher risk second serves if your standard second serve is being punished, so we are in agreement.
     
    #76
  27. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Yes, we all should be able to serve 3 sets without ever DF'ing, but we can choose to hit harder and more precisely placed second serves IF WE SO DESIRE!
    That means we CAN hit 50 out of 50 second serves IN.
    Whether we choose to or not depends on OUR OWN CHOICES....not errors, not mistakes, but OUR CHOICE of going for more.
    You need the basic skills before you push to the next level
     
    #77
  28. skiracer55

    skiracer55 Hall of Fame

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    See what I said in post #59...

    ...which is basically that you play tennis on the court, not on an Excel spreadsheet. Venus Williams often makes a ton of errors, and when she does, sometimes she wins, and sometimes she loses. If she were a young player and I were coaching her, I'd probably try to work on her strokes and her tactics so that she could *consistently* hit winners or force errors and not make a ton of errors. At this point in her career, there's no point in try to fix what really isn't broken. Nobody wins every match, and that includes Venus Williams. She needs to continue to play aggressively, and go for her shots. Some days, they'll all go in, and she'll turf her opponent. Other days, she won't be feeling it, and she'll make a ton of errors...but that doesn't mean she'll lose.

    Go back an look at post #1. IMHO, that's too many doubles. But nobody asked the question, "Well, did you win the match or not?" If you want to look at stats, the only thing that matters is who won the last point. There's a million different ways of getting there, and one of them is to serve well and not hit a lot of doubles. But it's not the only way...
     
    #78
  29. polski

    polski Semi-Pro

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    You should be able to make over 50% of your first serves and over 90% of your second serves. If you double 2 or 3 times a set, you're probably not losing points that you wouldn't have lost anyway.

    Regardless, double faulting will happen & should happen. It's a sign of how aggressive you play. At a 4.0 level, you need to do something with the 2nd other than tap it in...you won't hold serve & win many matches doing that.
     
    #79
  30. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I'm 4.0.
    Maybe YOU tap your second serves in.
    I swing fully 20% FASTER on my second serve swing, hit the ball oval and hissing, can place it forehand, backhand, or into the body...and get it in 98% of the time...if I play more than once a week. If I play once a month, maybe 90%.
    I can CHOOSE to crush it 90 mph with topspin, but percentage on pressured seconds go down to maybe 70%, not acceptable unless it solicits a weak return.
    Normal second twists around 60 mph.
    Normal second tops around 75.
    Normal first flats around 115.
     
    #80
  31. WBF

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    I don't see any reasonable argument for a flat number, or even a percentage. The only important stat is whether you are broken or not. If you serve 4 aces and 3 double faults, those 3 double faults are perfectly acceptable.

    I double fault. A lot. I make up for it though, and the games I do get broken are far, far more related to lower 1st serve percentage, ineffective second serves, or lucky/fantastic returns.
     
    #81
  32. bigfoot910

    bigfoot910 Rookie

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    I play 4.5 and I am very disappointed if I have more than 2x's per set. I feel like any more and it starts playing a factor in the outcome of the match.

    However, if I'm not double faulting at all I feel like I'm not taking enough chances on the serve trying to start on the offensive... So it's a delicate balance.
     
    #82
  33. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    I noticed that if I double fault more than 2x per set in singles I ten to lose. If I double 2x or less per set it's a good sign.

    If you're playing doubles at mid-range club level I don't think aces are important. Let you partner poach!
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
    #83
  34. *breaksracquet

    *breaksracquet Semi-Pro

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    Aside from my lapses of concentration that cause UEs, this is another reason why I rate myself a 3.5 is due to the number of double faults during a set. I usually serve very well, but sometimes I go for too much on the second serve, have a lapse in concentration, or even notice that I'm strangling my racquet and need to loosen my grip. :oops:
     
    #84
  35. burosky

    burosky Professional

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    I doubt you will be able to get any kind of specific answer for the question you are asking. I don't think there is a sure fire way to quantify or qualify what would be acceptable or not. If there is, please educate me.
     
    #85
  36. groundbreaker

    groundbreaker Rookie

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    my rule of thumb is to keep your aces equal or higher than your amount of double faults.
     
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  37. burosky

    burosky Professional

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    If I were to follow your rule of thumb my thumb would be unrecognizable by now. :):):)
     
    #87
  38. JuliusWinto

    JuliusWinto Rookie

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    Without reading anyone's responses to this question, I think 2 or 3 a match is ok. It depends on what kind of player you are. I am a strong baseliner, and I don't go for my serves. I just make sure that I don't get attacked off the return. If you are a big server and net player, and don't want to get in to baseline rallies off a weak second serve, maybe 5 or 6? That would be tops. You need to have a second serve that you can make 95% of the time before you start swinging harder and going for more.
     
    #88
  39. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I started of my last doubles match with three consecutive double faults.

    This, after a warm-up in which I could do no wrong.

    Go figure.
     
    #89
  40. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    In my opinion, an acceptable amount of double faults is "0." Unless you are going for a high risk second serve in a desperate situation, you have to know you can spin it in when needed. Having said that, as a practical matter, 1-2 double faults per set is typical among experienced competitive players. One double fault per service game is WAY to many under any circumstances.

    Go take some lessons on second serves, and in the mean time (after your first lesson), buy a ball hopper, and hit 100 second serves per day for a month. That'll cure what ails ya!
     
    #90
  41. Spokewench

    Spokewench Semi-Pro

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    It'll either cure you or wreck your shoulder and elbow so you can never play again!

    :)
     
    #91
  42. spot

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    Either way Double Faults wouldn't be a problem
     
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  43. ProgressoR

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    yesterday i won a two set match and hit only 1 DF, i was pretty happy with that, and yes i am still at the level where i count my DF's.

    I am at the level (ie pretty low) that i really do NOT want to do a DF because i dont get aggressive on second serve and just try to get it in, however i put a good amount of slice on it, and my level even the slower second serve is not generally attacked, maybe at higher levels i would consider a more adventurous second serve and thus accept more DF's as a result.
     
    #93
  44. tennismonkey

    tennismonkey Semi-Pro

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    doesn't matter if you have 1, 2 or 20 double faults in a match if you win. but that match would probably have been easier to win without double faults.

    throwing up a cream puff second serve is better than a double fault. the receiver still has to hit a return. double means no chance of winning the point. cream puff serve means at least a chance of winning the point.

    most matches are won and lost by only a few total points. every point matters.
     
    #94
  45. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    This depends on how risky your serves are and how effective they are. If I hit my first serve twice, I could live with 10 double faults in a match, but if I used my slice, I would be upset for hitting 4 in a match
     
    #95
  46. Darkhors

    Darkhors Rookie

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    You should never hit that many servers in one day. After about 40-50 serves (if you're hitting them as you would in a match), your arm will tire out and you can start to develop bad tendencies in your service technique.
     
    #96
  47. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    More on this?
    I should be ABLE to serve every second serve into the opponent's court.
    Whether you CHOOSE to play safe, second serves is up to you.
     
    #97
  48. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    That's not true. I'm 52, have numerous sports (and other) injuries including rotator cuff injury to my right shoulder, and I can serve 150 practice balls with no problems, which amounts to going through my basket, that holds 75 balls, twice. Hell, it takes me about 25 balls just to warm up. Don't get me wrong. I'm not bombing first serves when I practice. I'm working on my technique, toss, turn, tilt, knee bend, jump, ball bath, net clearance, kick, accuracy . . . all the aspects of serving.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2010
    #98
  49. spot

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    Seriously? You think that you should never hit a full bucket of balls?
     
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  50. ProgressoR

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    the few times i have just hit serves, anything less than a hundred is hardly worth it, and that is a mixture of spinny firsts and seconds and 80% flat serves and a few full out first hard serves if i a up for it. I would think that is ok twice a week, or 3 times, as long as you dont play through pain.
     

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