Advice for my serve?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by sharpy, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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  2. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    This is kinda OT the recent trophy/takeback, but here are some general windup notes that you may want to try.

    Yeah, but at least your elbow is moving away from the body now. That's progress! ;)

    Issue has to do with your forearm rotation and natural loop. Right now, you're trying to keep your racquet face open to the net and slightly oriented toward the ground. That's correct. However, you're doing this through twisting the wrist.

    What you want to do is to slightly pronate the forearm around the elbow, so that palm/forearm/racquet are all slightly facing the ground, prior to windup. This should lead to the elbow pointing away from the body and the racquet tip slightly pointing in. If you don't get this, then you're trying to turn the forearm with the wrist.

    When you initiate the windup, the elbow lengths out a little because it's stretching out. Look for a stretch in the outer part of the forearm (the side along the thumb) near the elbow, in your windup. That lets you know that the takeback arm is stretching. If you're "raising" the forearm around the elbow, then the windup is not correct. In general, the forearm doesn't really "rise" into the trophy position, rather the rest of the body tilts into the trophy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2008
  3. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    Tricky,

    The serve is just looking really really good right now!

    But I wish I could say the same about the fh

    here goes:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=7v0YERcbZfs (back)
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=ud_qUvuO0wA (side 45)

    pics

    http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/t1.jpg (7)
    http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/s1.jpg (7)

    I've spent quite some time putting these up. Hopefully you can find something to help fix up the takeback. I've been trying to work on it but may have made it worse...

    I'm having some major problems with spin, this is just very frustrating.
     
  4. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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  5. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    Tricky,

    That was good stuff. Thanks.

    Does the wrist maintain neutral from unit turn to the end of pronation? I'm assuming it has to if you were to pronate around the elbow rather than wrist?

    Issue of elbow moving away from body, this is supposed to be natural right? I don't think im purposely putting the elbow in a fixed slot. All im doing is the turn, and bringing the racket back with the nondominant hand, let go and pronate.

    Upperarm on video is not going back far enough as noted. why? pivoting forearm? how to fix? is it just pronating around elbow to fix it? there has to be another reason...

    Sitting back vs. turning the hips on purpose. So you sit back and then step out right? Does sitting back to initiate apply to bh?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2008
  6. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Yup, neutral.

    Yup, it's actually a natural part of the shoulder turn.

    Between the time that you release the unit turn and you start taking back the racquet, you stopped turning your shoulder. I can kinda see why, because a WTA-style takeback is the opposite of that. In that kind of stroke, as soon as you release the non-hitting arm, the elbow goes back into the body as the racquet climbs to takeback. Then, as the racquet drop, it starts to cross the right hip and go behind you. A "pull"-style FH is the opposite of this, and you're still adjusting.

    Sit back on FH, which leads to rotational momentum, or rotation of hips and trunk as one unit. Rotate hip with BH, which leads to weight transfer or linear momentum of legs.

    It might help to work with a simplified stroke. See if you can get T1-T4 down correctly first. Set up your unit turn, let the torso and hip rotate around and passively turn the shoulder back. As the shoulder turns, make sure the bend at the elbow and the bend around the wrist is constant <-- treat the entire arm as "one unit." Make sure racquet tip is oriented toward the net. Don't pivot the forearm (i.e. don't "wave" the forearm) around the elbow. Observe how the upper arm moves in space as it reaches height of takeback. Then, at that point, let gravity start dropping it and swing a normal forward swing (no dragging.) Don't worry about what the arm or racquet does, just swing.

    EDIT: Forgot about this detail . . .

    Not sure if you mean you're using your non-dominant hand to take the racquet back. If so, that's not a good idea. The non-dominant arm should be completely passive, except to help set the proper grip for the hitting arm. The non-dominant arm should not be used to set the unit turn, and it shouldn't be used to initiate the takeback or push the hitting arm back. You can do that with a WTA-style stroke, but not in a pull stroke. It almost always causes the forearm to pivot (which is desirable with a WTA-style stroke, but not really desirable for a ATP-style stroke), and can screws up the rotation of the arm (making the arm think you're going to swing with external rotation.) Even if you look at Agassi or Haas, whose hitting arm is stretched out wide, that's all due to the torso rotation/unit turn sending the arm back, NOT the assistance of the non-hitting arm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2008
  7. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    Tricky,

    Just read your edit about the non hitting arm. First I initiate using a step out, and recently trying a "sit back" then yes, AFTER THAT I do indeed use the non dominant hand to push/bring the racket further back. Heck, if i didn't the non dominant arm to assist/push/bring/take racket further back, it wouldnt go far back enough to straighten out "passively." right?

    I have yet more video/pics. This time, I am pronating around elbow not wrist. and also *trying* to begin with a sit back
    But still...lets start with video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLaHEUDsI2g

    now with pics

    http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/e1.jpg 8
    http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/y1.jpg (7)

    Let me know what you think...
     
  8. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    tricky...........?
     
  9. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Nah, not at all. During the unit turn, the combination of torso rotation and the dominant arm setting up leads to the non-dominant hand usually extending. It tends to vary with grip, the more conservative, the more naturally extended the non-hitting arm tends to be. That all said, it's not especially relevant. It makes more sense just to see the non-hitting arm as a means to set the front shoulder height. You set the non-hitting arm at about shoulder level, and that's about as active as it gets during the backswing.

    I guess the female players are different; some do push the hitting-arm back with their non-hitting arm, and the forearm ends up pivoting around the elbow. But it's not really part of the men's game.

    I'll follow up with another file later. But about 75% of the video looks really good. Unit turn looks good, and the footwork is much improved.
     
  10. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    deleted (10 char).....
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2008
  11. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    Tricky,

    This is in response to your critique of the fh/bh about 2 weeks ago? Couldnt reply sooner due to time restraints, and also because of the depth of your critique.. Had me puzzled for days.

    I have a few additional questions..

    fh-

    Could you explain the role of the non dominant hand a little more? How is my fingers actually pointing in relation to the ball vs. someone like federer?

    "What you want to do is set up your non-hitting hand with the palm facing the net (and almost perpendicular with the ground), and the pinkie on top. Most ATP players do this today (including Federer), so you may want to see."

    ^are you refering to the position at the full turn? I took a look at fed vids and I have a hard time seeing the (non dominant hand) palm facing the net at any point during the unit turn.
    ----

    I did notice/feel my elbow hooking up quite a bit on the fh nowadays alot more than it used to, Im assuming this is not a good thing?
    ----------
    bh--

    i;ve been working on the motion quite a bit. i'm just curious here. what grips would you recommend? currently i use a continental (r)/ 3/2.75 eastern (l)...



    Hope to get some more videos up soon from some more angles. Those videos are actually 2 months old. I just got a camera capable of 240 fps.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2008
  12. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Sharpy -- I'll reply by e-mail later tonight. I'm, uhhh, kinda distracted now . .. (Boston and Bill Simmons suck it you b#%@#$es!!! :D :D )
     
  13. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    no problem.. just make sure you're not high this time when you write ;)

    "4) If you're using a gravity step (recognizing that you have to go backwards), then instead of stepping out with that fat, you plan on that it. So, for example, if you need to go left but away from country, you turn with the left hip, you turn the left foot, and then you drive off the left foot." :shock:
     
  14. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    Last edited: Jun 27, 2008
  15. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    tricky?.................
     
  16. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    I'll send you something by end of w/end. (In the back video clip, you kinda this look back at the camera of quiet desperation. Like "what IS this?!?" :D ) We'll just rebuild the windup from the ground up.
     
  17. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    10 charr....
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  18. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Still writing it. It's about 3000 words right now.
     
  19. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    Awesome. Thanks. Could you put an autograph on it when you're done? (just kidding):mrgreen:
     
  20. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    Tricky,

    Quick question here not related to serves but related to slingshot fh..

    Been trying to fix the fh problem and I was thinking about you saying the pronation near the height of takeback is not done by "twist of the wrist"

    This is a little confusing though. If the pronation isnt done by a twist of the wrist, how is it done? It definately isnt done by a "twist of the forearm" as I tried.

    I admit im still doing the twist of the wrist to intiate the pronation/racket turn.

    The problem is theres only 2 ways I can think of the racket turn can be completed

    1. twisting the wrist near height of takeback
    2. twisting the forearm?

    Just finished looking at some fed fhs and his racket turn/pronation seems similar but just slightly different than what im doing right now.
     
  21. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    It's kind of an essay on the tennis windup. The key thing is that, in the windup, the center of gravity must go forward through all stages of the windup. And that's really hard to pick up from just looking at other video footage.

    Say you wanted to turn a thumbs up to a thumbs down.

    1) You can do this by leading with the thumb. That would be twisting by wrist.

    2) You can do this by turning around the elbow. That would be twisting by forearm.

    I think it might be easier if you properly visualize the non-hitting arm as we discussed before. The hitting arm will usually follow in kind after that. You were really, really close that time, but the mismatch of the non-hitting arm and the hitting arm threw off your timing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2008
  22. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    Yea, but non-hitting arm aside, what is the proper method to initiate the racket turn? a twist of the forearm? a twist of the wrist? or something else?
     
  23. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    From the forearm. You should feel no tension in the arm as you do it. Also, the non-hitting arm will help you in that (non-hitting arm kinda works as a mirror.)
     
  24. sharpilistik

    sharpilistik Banned

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    Yea when I do a the twist around forearm i feel alot of tension in the arm. why?? Feels much looser when i do a twist around the wrist.

    Could you go into a little more detail about the twist around the forearm for the fh?
     
  25. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Sharpy -- When you take back, do you feel most of your weight on your back foot and feel a strong stretch with your right hip? Or do you feel your weight is pretty evenly distributed between both feet?
     

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