Agassi only won one Wimbledon?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by RAFA2005RG, Dec 23, 2012.

  1. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Fed has a great return of serve against big servers though in general.
    Classic:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzFlrFfUrg
     
    #51
  2. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    He wouldnt stand a chance against prime Sampras ever, and he would also face other better grass courters like Becker, Ivanisevic, and arguably Agassi and Rafter, so he wouldnt win a Wimbledon title in the 90s either. Maybe if he had ever learnt to volley proberly he might have had a fighting chance, but that is not the case.
     
    #52
  3. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Sampras won half his Wimbledon's off pigeons.

     
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  4. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Although they did mix up the seedings at Wimbledon some to better reflect the skill on the grass courts, the top seeds weren't necessarily the best grass-court players. Krajicek was not in the top 4, for example.
    Also because of the nature of grass courts (in those days) upsets were much more common than today.

    (It also shows that good luck is a factor in winning a tennis tournament.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
    #54
  5. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Roddick had it easy by comparison, as the current era would never be described as one with a large number of grass court giants, hence the reason a player with such questionable "skills" could reach three Wimbledon finals had serious chances to beat Federer. Roddick would not even make a final in the era discussed in this thread, as his "skills" were not suited for a period where real grass--and the kind of players mastering said grass would have catapulted him out of the event in the first week.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
    #55
  6. BHud

    BHud Professional

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    Not really...Agassi pouted and didn't play it for several years because the crowd disliked him...and also there was PS...
     
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  7. 3fees

    3fees Hall of Fame

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    one is better than none.
     
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  8. ec51

    ec51 Rookie

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    Didn't Agassi also skip a few Wimbledons?

    He talks about it in his book - he didnt enjoy the venue too much, if I remember correctly.
     
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  9. dudeski

    dudeski Hall of Fame

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    Nah. It was a fluke just like Nadal's AO and USO wins.
     
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  10. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    you must excuse the village idiot for posting that level of absurdities...
     
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  11. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    More surprised that Agassi won only one French Open and that it was the last of the four he won. When Agassi came up he looked like he could have been a force on clay.

    Also so much Roddick hate. I mean for ****s sake if Pilone and Maivai Washington could make a wimbledon final I'm sure Roddick could as well. Stop sucking the dick of every damn player in the 90s like they all were 20 major winners.
     
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  12. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    If Washington, Courier, Pioline can makes the Wimbledon final then certainly Roddick could have made the final. He's even better than Agassi and yet Agassi managed to win one. He's just as good as Goran who also made multiple finals. Don't forget his big serve would be even more formidable in the fast, slick grass. Volley is more suitable in the 90s and Roddick would use more often thus would improve. Given his chance in the 90s, I think he could sneak in one Wimbledon.
     
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  13. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, there's a lot of Roddick hate because he's playing alongside with Roger(nothing news). Fed denied him 4 times in the final, there no reason to believe that he wouldn't make the final or atleast win one.
     
    #63
  14. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Roddick likely would have won more than one in the 90s.
     
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  15. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'm just being conservative.:wink:
     
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  16. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    It was three finals at Wimbledon.

    One at US Open.
     
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  17. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Courier was a major force in tennis at the time he faced Sampras in the Wimbledon final, and took out a great Wimbledon champion to get there; at no time in Roddick's career was he on Courier's level, thus the mere attempt to try to toss him into the same pit Roddick occupies invalidates your entire post.

    It takes more than a big serve to win on that grass, as Sampras, Becker and Goran (and others) were proof of. To that end, Roddick's game was lacking, which is why his appearances at modern day Wimbledon is plausible, while theories about his chances during the Sampras era are just laughable (to be kind).

    Let's see...in his own era--THIS era, his attempts to volley are inferior at best, and he shows a gross misunderstanding of turning the volley into a tactical weapon like the masters of the technique. Transport that to the era in question, and he looks like a half-schooled junior recovering from a car wreck. All of the Roddick hallmarks--flat feet, bad hands and a tendency to do the same thing over and over again (even when it does not work) is not a formula for Wimbledon success in the Sampras era.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
    #67
  18. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    If Roddick took his game to the old Wimbledon, he would do well, but probably wouldn't have won it. However, since people are a product of the times, I'm sure he would have been a better volleyer. He wouldn't have to be all that great. Goran was not a really good volleyer - Mary Carillo said he had "dumpy" volleys. At Wimbledon, on the bad grass, all he had to do was dump the volley over the net and the lack of bounce/bad bounces made it very difficult for the opponent to return it. I think Roddick could have gotten his volleys to at least that level had he grown up doing it and probably could have won a couple of titles.
     
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  19. Retaliation

    Retaliation New User

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    I am surprised he only won once. I was/am a huge fan, and Sampras' existence pisses me off. I HATE serve and volley "tennis". That's not even tennis. That's like making free throws in basketball, or kicking field goals in football, or faking an injury in soccer. Not my thing.
     
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  20. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Roddick was not a natural talent, or had the mind of the kind who excel with the volley technique. He was and will always be seen as a one-dimensional baseliner who only added his clumsy "net game" when he ran out of solutions for his "A" game falling apart. It was a desperation move and did not aid his game enough to bring him back to winning majors.
     
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  21. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Okay.
    But if he grew up during the serve and volley era, volleying would have been part of his A game from a young age and he certainly would have been better at it.
    Of course, we will never know for sure how things would have turned out.
     
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  22. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    You can make that argument, but I think the results would be the same, because Roddick is not creatively or intellectually flexible enough to add that kind of movement to his game--and be somewhat effective with it (as much as a baseliner can be), like Connors, Lendl or Courier.
     
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  23. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Exactly. Agassi was not that comfortable on grass. But RG was the first slam where he got noticed. His fabulous semi vs Wilander in 1988. It looked like RG would be the first slam he would win and it's a bit disappointing he got only one title there in the end. He should have won his first final in 1990, the one vs Gomez.
     
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  24. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Of course he would do well, especially when he has one of the biggest serve in history, which the slick grass help him a great deal. Goran's ground game is significantly inferior to Roddick and yet he made multiple finals. Only Roddick haters/worshipping 90s' players are blind.
     
    #74
  25. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    ... so I can't help but notice you didn't address noted grass giants Pioline and Washington making finals.
     
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  26. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Agassi was extremely lucky to win Wimbledon, he had a perfect draw of the perfect match-ups.
     
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  27. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    THUNDERVOLLEY is also wrong about Courier > Roddick on grass. And if he doesn't address Pioline/Washington, he's conceded that they are weak players. That's equivalent to Wawrinka making the Wimbledon final.
     
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  28. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    Well, to be fair, I do agree that Courier played exceptionally well to reach that final, and his career was clearly above Roddick's even considering his rapid decent after 1993/1994.

    With that said, I've got the Wimbledon 2004 final on right now, and Courier would be very, very hard pressed against this A-Rod. He was literally playing Courier's favored game, just amped up by a factor of 10 on goddamn everything except volleys.
     
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  29. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I was strictly comparing them on grass. And I agree Courier had one great year in 1993, but that's no comparison to Roddick's 3 years run at Wimbledon. There's no evidence to suggest that Roddick wouldn't make any final in the 90s(as blundervolley claim).
     
    #79
  30. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    Oh hell no - while it's true he'd have Sampras to contend with, Roddick himself was surprisingly no slouch against big servers. He took out Ancic in 04 (while not playing all that well himself), Raonic last year, Karlovic at Queens - I mean, the dude would be making Wimby finals in the 90's at the LEAST.
     
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  31. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    LOL this is not true at all. Goran's backhand is light years better than Roddick's little poop of a backhand. Roddick's forehand in his 03-04 is probably better, but then he turned his forehand into this wierd moonbally thing for the remainder of his career. On grass Goran does everything better than Roddick, much more dominant serve, far better return, more athleticsm and better movement, much better volleys. People who have seen the two play know there is no comparision in their abilities on that particular surface. It just shows how much stronger the Sampras era on grass was that the two have almost the same # of finals, when there is no comparision in their grass court abilities.
     
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  32. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    Shame about his head, though. The things Goran could have done with Roddick's or Hewitt's mental fortitude...
     
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  33. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    ability doesn't matter when you are a notorious choker
     
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  34. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    He had nerves of steel when he won Wimbledon in 2001. Against Rafter in the final, Goran was serving at 6-7 in the fifth set, 0-30 down, and missed a first serve. He was staring defeat in the face. He got out of it.
     
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  35. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    So one instance makes up for it? There are others of course, but the point stands. It would be like saying Nadal is a choker because of his AO 2012 loss to Djokovic, or that Fed is a choker because he lost to Safin from MP up at the AO 2005, but we know that neither of these guys are chokers, else they wouldn't have 11 and 17 GS respectively.
     
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  36. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (pause) (gets drink of water) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Goran gets ridiculously overrated on these boards, like Muster and many of the other one major winners from the 90s. Goran was not a god on grass, he was a very good player but not a god. I will say Goran has a slight edge on Roddick, but considering the two of them in their primes had one strategy on grass, ace the **** out of everyone, or serve either super hard down the T or with a ton of slice to the corner and put away a weak reply I doubt either would have been doing well. Goran might return better, but HELL NO is Goran returning Roddick's serves and vice versa. Also Roddick in his prime definitely had a better baseline game than Goran, not by much but slightly. BUT PLEASE DO NOT SAY THERE IS NO COMPARISON. For ****s sake in the 90s when GRASS was all about big serve and volleying, Goran lost to AGASSI the choker. I think Roddick in 03-05 definitely could have given any Goran you can come up with a run for his money.

    However this is futile and you and Mustard will now proceed to remind us how about in the 90s everyone was a god, when we all know the 80s should be the only era where anyone mentions steep and ridiculous levels of competition.
     
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  37. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Yea, had Agassi just worked out his nerves and focused he could have easily had won 90 and 91. I always felt Agassi was better built for clay than Courier. Agassi just did everything better but have mental toughness in his youth. When Agassi won Wimbledon in 92 everyone was in shock. Most people said that Sampras vs. Goran match was the "finals", most people weren't giving Agassi a chance. It's so insane to think that Agassi won his wimbledon before Sampras or Goran...that Wimbledon was his first major looking back on it. Agassi really should have been a huge force on clay in the 90s.

    So on topic. Agassi won one Wimbledon and thats all he should have won, however he should have won multiple French Opens.
     
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  38. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    In the fourth set of that final, Goran went ballistic over a second serve line call when serving at 2-3, advantage Rafter, and Goran kicked the net in frustration. He lost his head for the rest of the set, but then calmed down once the fifth set began.

    And do I have to mention the 3-day drama in the semi finals against Henman, and how so many experts were also backing Roddick, Rusedski and Safin to beat Goran? They all had "too much firepower" for Goran, apparently.
     
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  39. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    The vast majority of people thought that Agassi would win a major before any of the other young upcoming American players. But it was a 17 year old Chang who did it first. That shocked a lot of people. Agassi's reveals his jealously of Chang at the time, in his book. "How could Chang, of all people, have won a slam before me?!".

    Agassi reached 2 major finals in 1990, but lost both to Gomez and Sampras (another young American player). Agassi's coach at the time, Nick Bollettieri, seemed to over-celebrate when Agassi beat Becker (the defending champion) in the semi finals of the 1990 US Open.

    Not sure I agree with that. Courier was a very patient, hard worker, with a lot of firepower in his game. Agassi was more of a talented shotmaker, but his mind and overall tactical nous wasn't there at that time like it was with Courier. Courier was the first of those young American players to really reach an elite level in his thinking, preparation, fitness and ability (which surprised a lot of people), with periods of dominance in big events, like he was showing the others (Sampras, Agassi etc.) what was possible. Courier had "it" before them, but he burned out pretty quickly, and Sampras took over and dominated to a whole new level compared to Courier. Agassi got there under his new coach, Brad Gilbert, but had huge setbacks following the 1995 US Open final, and it took him over 2 years after this for Agassi to be professional in his overall preparation.

    Agassi was the star at Bollettieri's when he was young, was always noticed, and was conscious of "Image is Everything", so Agassi was under pressure early, to live up to his great talent. Courier was dismissed more, and had to leave Bollettieri's and do something on the tour in order to get really noticed. That's pressure too, but a different kind of pressure to what Agassi had.

    I didn't give Agassi a chance against Goran, personally. Goran had just beaten Sampras in 4 sets without even facing a break point in the whole match, and had served 36 aces.

    Gomez was having a very good clay-court season in 1990. I admit that Courier had some good fortune in 1991 with the weather which halted play in the second set, but that's the way it goes. In 1992, Courier crushed Agassi after 3-3 in the first set. I liked Agassi's post-match interview with Bud Collins, though. In hindsight, it's quite fascinating, "Wimbledon? I'll be there", with a twinkle in his eye. Little did we know that Agassi would actually win it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
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  40. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    So true. I was in the stands for the 1991 final (the one against Courier). Everything was going well for Andre before the rain delay. It looked like a sure win. He was dominating Courier (as he should). After the rain delay, he came back a different man, tentative, anxious, nerves had got hold of him, the door shut on him quickly after that. I was totally devastated. That loss knocked down his confidence for quite a while. That's why it took him so long to win his first slam .
     
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  41. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Courier had also changed tactics. During that rain delay, Courier's coaches, Brad Stine and Jose Higueras, told Courier to stand a few feet behind the baseline and to get the returns deep, and it worked very well. Prior to the rain delay, Courier had been returning from the baseline or even inside the baseline.
     
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  42. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    What a joke. Roddick and Ivanisevic are certainly comparable. You could make a case for both of them.
     
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  43. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    That's true, still I felt like Andre panicked and started rushing. The combination of the 2 was lethal :(
     
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  44. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    When Goran brought his firepower, he was better. Goran has also reached the finals of Rome and Hamburg, won Stuttgart, been a 3-time French Open quarter finalist, and is also the only player to have beaten Muster on clay in Davis Cup. He had much better returns and groundstrokes than he is given credit for.
     
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  45. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    you beat me to the punch... i definitely agree !
     
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  46. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    Agassi didn't underachieve at RG at all. One title was exactly right for him there.

    He was incredibly unlucky not to win the RG title in 1991, and was very lucky to win the 1999 title, so his luck balanced out there. In 1991 everyone including Courier admits that Agassi would have won the final without the rain delay, and Jose Higueras telling Courier to stand further behind the baseline. In 1999, Agassi benefited from Kuerten, Rios and Corretja all getting eliminated in the quarters, and a rain delay against Medvedev in the final.

    He was not unlucky at all in 1990. Many people, both back then and now, underestimated and underrated Gomez and his chances of winning the 1990 final. He was simply a better clay court player at the time than Agassi was, and outplayed and overpowered him. In the semis he had brushed aside Muster who was also a better clay court player than Agassi at the time, avenging a narrow loss to him in the Rome semis a few weeks earlier. You could argue that the Gomez-Muster semi was pretty much the de-facto final in 1990 between the two best clay court players in the world.

    Gomez had won the Italian Open twice during the 80s, and had lost to his arch nemesis Lendl at RG 4 times. With Lendl skipping RG that year to concentrate on Wimbledon, he became very confident that he could win the title. I can't stand Mary Carillo, but when she was commentating on the Sampras-Gomez Philadelphia final in February 1990, she actually said that she rated Gomez's RG title chances highly with Lendl out of the way (he announced he would skip the event long in advance). A good prediction. Gomez won good quality lead-up tournaments at Barcelona and Madrid, and was the no. 4 seed at RG.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
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  47. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    game-wise goran was better on grass, but roddick was mentally tougher ....again, game-wise, the difference on grass isn't as big as that troll nadalagassi makes it out to be .......

    clay , goran was far and away better, but he still wasn't a contender for major titles there ..... odd wins in one-off matches here and there apart ...

    but roddick was far and away better on both slow and fast HC ....
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
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  48. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    In fact the grand slam that Agassi underachieved at was actually the US Open. Given his hard court prowess, he should have won more than 2 titles there from 6 finals and 21 tournament appearances.

    There is this myth that the US Open courts were very fast in the 90s and heavily favoured Sampras over him, but that is untrue. In fact the USO organisers slowed down the courts in the early 90s to favour Agassi, Courier and Chang (but mainly Agassi), and quite a few players complained about that. During that time the USA played a few home Davis Cup ties on clay, which is unimaginable nowadays.

    The 2000 Australian Open courts that Agassi won the title on and beat Sampras in the semis on, were faster than the US Open courts that he lost to Sampras on in 1995, 2001 and 2002. They had sped up the Rebound Ace that year to help Rafter and Philippoussis, and that was pretty well documented.

    He was the clear favourite to beat Sampras on all 4 occasions that they played each other at the US Open, only to lose every time, which must have stung. Really when you are talking about two of the greatest hard court players of all time in Sampras and Agassi, the speed, bounce etc of the hard court don't really matter that much anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
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  49. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    agree that agassi underachieved at the USO , but disagree with other points here ....

    the AO in 2000 while faster than usual was not faster than the USO in 95,2001 and 2002 ...

    while I do agree that the 4-0 and 0-2 h2hs at the respective slams do not accurately reflect their prowess and matchup at those surfaces, I do definitely think that the speed, bounce of the courts , even among HCs did matter quite a bit .....
     
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  50. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    THIS

    It reminds me of a thread ages ago where someone was trying to say without Fed, Roddick would have been an all time grass great.

    I remember a few us boarders answer with a resounding "NO" for all the reasons you stated.

    Roddick had a great serve and fh, but overall grass play?

    No.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013

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