Agassi says Nadal has a strong case for being the GOAT

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by octogon, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. octogon

    octogon Semi-Pro

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    According to Matt Cronin via twitter:

    Agassi-"Nadal has argument 4 being best ever. If Nada is sitting at table with Federer he can ask him, "how come u didn't consistently beat me?"

    Agassi also says that Fed could still make his case for best ever based on overall records, and that the current generation of players is better than his and Sampras. Agassi says the top 3 of all time as it stands are Laver, Nadal and Federer (no order given).
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
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  2. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Please keep Fed fans from sharp objects, as yet another ex-pro looks to Nadal over Federer.

    ...and so much for certain Fed fans' squealing that "Laver is from a different era--he be out of discussion. LOL."
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
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  3. BrooklynNY

    BrooklynNY Hall of Fame

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    Wait.... someone go pull up Agassi's quote from 8 yrs ago, and try to say he is a hypocrite bandwagoner.

    Nevermind the fact that more time has passed and more information has become available, which might have lead Andre to change his opinion.


    He's also played both of them, He's beaten Federer before, but never beaten Nadal

    :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
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  4. octogon

    octogon Semi-Pro

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    Awww...Fed still has his good buddy Tiger Tim Henman on his side. Tiger Tim is no Agassi or McEnroe or Courier, but hey, it's better than nothing:)
     
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  5. FrontHeadlock

    FrontHeadlock Semi-Pro

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    Nadal's situation is like a sports team having a game remaining that they need to win, but then owning a tiebreaker over the top team in the league.

    Nadal has some work to do, but by far his biggest asset in the GOAT debate is going to be his H2H with Federer. If Nadal retired today he's 100% be behind Federer, but as Nadal adds to his totals he's going to have the benefit of having played and beaten Federer so many times.
     
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  6. Incognito

    Incognito Hall of Fame

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    Tim hates Nadal. He was so sure before the match he would beat Nadal in dubai in 2006, because "Nadal will not like his game and the court is very fast". Young Nadal straight-setted him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
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  7. Nativenewyorker

    Nativenewyorker New User

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    Why can't we just say that these two will go down as the greatest to ever play this game? Why do we need to have a GOAT?

    The premise itself is flawed, because it presumes that there can be a greatest of all time, instead of acknowledging the greatest players in their own era. You can't forget about someone like Laver, just because it was decades ago. He has records that are still standing today, which is the best measure of greatness.

    There are a few players who always come up in any discussion of the greatest - Laver, Borg, Sampras, Fed and Rafa. So why not just leave it at that?
     
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  8. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    At best the ex-players can do is put Nadal in the same level or below, but not above. However, vast number of ex-players put Federer above Nadal. Even many have Laver above Nadal.
     
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  9. victorcruz

    victorcruz Semi-Pro

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    This. Great post :)
     
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  10. Finesse4sum

    Finesse4sum Semi-Pro

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    Because people want a name that stands comfortably above the rest.

    Fans want a measuring stick to measure all players that come after him/her.
     
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  11. octogon

    octogon Semi-Pro

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    Those that still have Fed ahead are only doing it based on his slams (not WTF's, weeks at no. 1, semi final streaks, or whatever other metrics you got).

    Realistically, Nadal is likely to match Fed's total. If he ties it, it's game over He's automatically over Fed in the eyes of just about everyone. As McEnroe and Wilander have pointed out, even with Nadal at 15 slams, people are going to be more likely to side with Nadal, because the slam totals are close, but the H2H is so devastating (for Fed).

    It's admirable how you are trying to fight back the inevitable, but everyone know what's coming.
     
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  12. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Experts weight on the most important metrics. It's the same for the WTA and Federer and Graf is ranked #1.

    PLAYER CRITERIA

    * Number of Major Titles won
    * Overall performance at Grand Slam Events
    * Player Ranking
    * Performance at ATP/WTA events
    * Win/loss record at Davis & Fed Cup events
    * Records held or broken
    * Intangibles(contribution to tennis)

    Even contribution to tennis, Nadal lacks behind.
     
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  13. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    LOL at reading comprehension. Where exactly did Agassi say Nadal was better than Federer? I thought he just said the argument could be made. It's funny when a blatantly bias Nadal fan tries to make a crack at the "stereotypical" Fed fan, and in the process shows that they are just as bad about being fanatical.
     
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  14. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    Incorrect. McEnroe, Courier, Navratilova, Murray, Djokovic, Becker, all have put Nadal "above" Federer. Roddick, Hewitt, and Henman are the only ones I can recall who explicably said Federer is best, or even better than Nadal.
     
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  15. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    All true. Anyone who disputes a single thing about your post is in serious denial.
     
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  16. octogon

    octogon Semi-Pro

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    Good point. It's sort of Fed who is struggling to keep his (former) status these days with the players.
     
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  17. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Agassi would have spanked Nadal had they run into
    Each other in 2003-2004. Federer lost to agassi when he was young or Agasdi was playing great tennis. 2005 was just about the end of Agassi.
     
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  18. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    Well Nadal is way better than Federer in Davis Cup, and has many more Masters titles than Federer, so already there is atleast a couple of your so called criteria he is clearly above in. Nadal also has more 500 titles than Federer. The only regular tour events Federer leads in are the WTF titles and tiny 250 titles.

    Overall performance at Slam Events? Well one has won his best slam 8 times and won the biggest slam on each surface atleast 2, and the other couldnt do either. While the one who did the things is in the middle of his career and the one who didnt is at the end of his.

    Records held or broken? Both have alot of records.

    Contribution to tennis? Neither are especialy great here actually. Neither boosted the popularity of the game the way Borg, McEnroe, and Connors did. Neither were part of a big venture that profied the game like Kramer or King.
     
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  19. BrooklynNY

    BrooklynNY Hall of Fame

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    I agree, Roddick was blazing Nadal in 04 and even hitting him with 1st serves. :D

    This was a perfect stir the pot and see what happens when I'm back from lunch situation.

    :twisted:
     
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  20. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Why should we just say it if one is better than the other?
     
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  21. octogon

    octogon Semi-Pro

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    But it's pretty obvious the only reason Agassi still thinks Fed has a case is because Nadal is still a couple of slams short of Fed's current record. Once Nadal hits 15-16, it's pretty obvious that the likes of Aggasi won't even try and be diplomatic in regards to Fed still having an argument.

    They are sort of gently trying to prepare Fed fans for the inevitable. Once Nadal is within two slams of Fed...most ex-pros will say outright that Fed doesn't have much of a case anymore. It's says a lot that Nadal is still 4 slam short, and pros are making the case that he's GOAT over Fed.
     
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  22. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    remember, Nadal's body has proven to be fragile (really Nadal's main weakness, otherwise he would have already taken over nearly all records); so we don't know what will come...
     
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  23. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Agassi didnt complete the sentence by saying 'Wheelchair Category'.
     
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  24. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    Actually half of them say Nadal COULD be better. So it's you who is incorrect. I heard mcenroe say barely a fortnight ago that nadal is catching up to federer, who is arguably the best ever. So hes not there yet by jmacs own words. Nice try.
     
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  25. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    Uh coulda woulda shoulda bub. That's the hand he was dealt. Could say federer is unlucky to have paired up with claygoat who denied him 2 cygs too. It goes both ways. Except federer is a lot closer than nadal to that hypothetical scenario.
     
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  26. Safinator_1

    Safinator_1 Professional

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    Quote for the truth :D
     
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  27. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    I think many commentators and former pros visit this site. I now hear them talking about silent bans, etc. I never heard that term before TT.
     
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  28. Thriller

    Thriller Rookie

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    I think this is a misunderstanding of the situation. Of course these metrics have to be used when trying to compare players from different generations as there is no other way of doing so!

    Even then there are problems with doing so with players whose careers spanned the pre and post open eras. What should we think of the Six slams won by Laver as an amateur when there were clearly much better professional players than him barred from competing?

    But when two rivals played each other multiple times and played the same competitors at the same tournaments multiple times, it is surely much easier to compare them?

    At the same age Federer and Nadal have the same number of Majors but Nadal has more Masters and more titles overall. Nadal already holds the outright record for most number of titles won outdoors which is significant because all of the slams are outdoors.

    As well as the H2H, Nadal has a better Win Loss percentage than Federer against the same field which proves that not only was Nadal much better at beating Federer than Federer was at beating Nadal, Nadal was better than Federer at beating everyone else too! His dominance of the entire Top 40 is unprecedented.

    The only two areas where Federer is ahead and likely to stay ahead are weeks at No. 1 and WTFs in all other stats he is either already behind or level with Nadal at the same age and Nadal still has time on his side.

    We will see but in my view if Nadal overtakes Sampras to clearly move in to second place in the slam count, professional and public opinion will swing decisively towards the view that Nadal was a better player and had a better career than Roger Federer.

    The H2H doesn't lie. Nor is the position that Nadal is just a bad match up for Federer tenable anymore. Nadal has proved that he is a bad match up for just about everyone, because he really is just too good ... better than them all, including Federer.
     
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  29. Anti-Fedal

    Anti-Fedal Professional

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    Nadal is not the GOAT or top 3 of all time, but he is better/greater than Federer, no doubt about that.
     
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  30. ScentOfDefeat

    ScentOfDefeat Hall of Fame

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    The only thing these unbelievable numbers (17, 14, 13 Slams) show is how gigantic the amplitude between the best players and the worst players is.

    Example: can we be so sure that an era where 4 rivals win 8 Slams each (4x8=32), defeating each other for the various titles, is worse than an era where 2 players win 17 + 15 (=32)?

    And how can we be sure that these 4 hypothetical players aren't just as good or even better than the 2 who shared the spoils in another era?

    If one era has more players playing at the top level than another era, why should that be ignored in terms of greatness?

    What if the current era didn't have 1 Federer, 1 Nadal and 1 Djokovic, but 6 of them beating each other regularly?

    I guess what I'm saying is that Slam count says more about the relationship between the elite of the game and the second rate players than it does about the intrinsic quality of the players who dominate the field.

    The gap between the elite and the lesser players can be calculated in any given era. The results are there for all to see. But the intrinsic quality of a player can't be determined across eras, unless all the greats of the sport could play against each other under neutral conditions and at the same age.
     
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  31. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Nadal was 16-18 in 2003-04, so not realistic. He'd only played 75 ATP matches prior to 2005. He played Agassi in 05 in Canada at 19yo (Nadal seeded #1 and Agassi seeded #4) and 06 at Wimbledon at 20yo (Nadal seeded #2 and Agassi seeded #25) and beat him pretty decisively on both HC and grass.

    So, no excuses about Federer being too young blah blah
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
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  32. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    John McEnroe said during the U.S Open about 5 times Nadal is the best player ever. He said it many times throughout this year. He even said after Nadal's first round loss at Wimbledon that Nadal was still the best player ever, even after such an embarassing moment for himself. He didnt say could be, he said was repeatedly. Could be was a year or two ago. You can get a hearing aid at the old folks home near you I am sure old man.
     
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  33. ultradr

    ultradr Hall of Fame

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    10, 20 years from now, Federer or Nadal ? Neither will be considered GOAT.
     
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  34. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    its true.....the goat question is now officially arguable.....however if nadal just comes close to Fed then its over and Nadal will be the undisputed goat.

    4 more slams to go Fed fans before your boy is toast.
     
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  35. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    I think that is very possible. At the very least I am sure Federer wont be. Nadal only will be if he wins atleast 19 majors probably, otherwise it will go back to the players from the distant past who truly are, even though media is trying to push Nadal and Federer like they do always do current stars.
     
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  36. ScentOfDefeat

    ScentOfDefeat Hall of Fame

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    And why should be substitute our own reasoning for McEnroe's opinion? Arguments from authority can be accepted when they involve work, research and proof: not when they're a mere expression of opinion. In this case, any well-founded opinion can rival McEnroe's, so I don't see the point in quoting him or any other former player. We're discussing achievements, not individual experience in the game.
     
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  37. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    I named numerous people. Not just McEnroe. Of course have your own opinions, but then dont tell those of us who think Federer is not the GOAT we have to accept he is since so and so says so either. There are many of these so called quoted authorities who dont believe Federer is GOAT, and more than do at this point.
     
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  38. RF-18

    RF-18 Banned

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    Well ok then agassi, i guess davydenko is greater than nadal. he leads 6-5 on head 2 head.

    Federer has the most records broken, he has most slams, number of weeks being #1, final records. 8 ATP wourld tour titles etc.

    Federer will always be number one goat. even if nadal passes him in slams(i doubt it). He is not just the best on court, but also outside, greatest ambassador tennis has ever had. No one has been more important than him.
     
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  39. ScentOfDefeat

    ScentOfDefeat Hall of Fame

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    I don't think anyone is the GOAT. I find the whole discussion absurd. I've no agenda. And it's such a good feeling.
     
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  40. Safinator_1

    Safinator_1 Professional

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    Thats great thats your opinion, everyone is entitled to one. Others will say different therefore The GOAT debate shall continue, which can only mean one thing Federer will NEVER be known universally as the GOAT. Happy?
     
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  41. RF-18

    RF-18 Banned

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    You are absolutely right, but I dont think its a matter of opinion, it is a FACT!
     
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  42. Thriller

    Thriller Rookie

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    The irony is that despite what his hardcore fans think, Roger Federer has never really believed that he is better than Nadal. Certainly not since 2006. In fact since Rome 2006, haven't most of his hardcore fans been urging him after every defeat to see a shrink or a hypnotist to help him play the big points with more self belief?

    Well he should know. If Federer doesn't think he is better than Nadal and he certainly doesn't play Nadal as if he believes he is the better player, who are we to disagree?
     
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  43. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Agreed. Tennis is multifaceted and there is a distinction between the best career and the best player...who would actually beat the other. Factor in the change in tech and the slowing down of the courts, its pretty murky IMHO.

    For instance even something that seems straight forward like the Nadal Fed H2H is not. Factor in the court surface and well if its carpet and you are betting, you want Fed because head to head Fed is 4-0 indoors against Nadal. Same thing the other way around if playing on clay you choose Nadal because he is 13-2 against fed.
     
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  44. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    His status--largely imagined by his fans--was on shaky ground from the start. One cannot be a GOAT yet in some unimaginable manner fail to meet the significant criteria associated with the distinction.

    As we see--almost on a weekly basis--objective considerations cannot conclude fanboy fantasies about Federer were true at all.
     
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  45. 10is

    10is Professional

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    Can the OP provide a direct link to this alleged "tweet*"?

    *and by "direct link" I don't mean, a link to another forum and or "unofficial" blog/website parroting the same thing without a corroborating link to the actual tweet
     
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  46. BrooklynNY

    BrooklynNY Hall of Fame

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    #46
  47. 10is

    10is Professional

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    LOL! Why tweet something like that second hand without context (why, where, when)? I think Matt Cronin is merely trying to generate controversy and stir the pot for the sake of publicity and hits.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
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  48. Shaolin

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    Here's another football analogy.

    A team wins 17 Superbowls but has a losing record to one team along the way. All other teams they have a winning record against.

    Does it matter? No because its all about beating the entire field of teams not just one team.

    Nadal fanboys should really try to understand this.
     
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  49. Backspin1183

    Backspin1183 Legend

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    #49
  50. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Laver has acknowledged Fed as the GOAT. I think he knows more about tennis.
     
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