Agassi says Nadal has a strong case for being the GOAT

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by octogon, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. Death Master

    Death Master Banned

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    I don't think wtf or even the number of years at #1 have any significance if it is just a matter of deciding who is the better player.

    why not settle that issue first before going after a far more complex mythical, imaginary GOAT concept.


    1. have they played each other enough times? in other words, how large is the sample size? how many of those matches were the finals?

    a. nadal won 21 times. how many of those wins were collected in the finals? roger has 10 wins so how many of those were in the finals?

    2. how many times they have faced each other at slams on all 3 different surfaces?

    3. finally how has each fared against his greatest rivals?


    that should settle it.
     
  2. President

    President Legend

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    If Nadal wins the Australian Open, its a safe bet to say he will pass 17 majors. Federer's 6 WTF titles are still a big edge though, each one of those has to count for at least 2 Masters titles historically speaking if not more.
     
  3. Safinator_1

    Safinator_1 Professional

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    I'm just stating the obvious, What it really comes down to is this. Universally it will NEVER be accepted that one player is the undisputed GOAT no matter how many records, titles, achievments etc etc you state.

    It is all an ego issue (superioirity/inferiority) of their favourate/hated players. If other people rain down on Federer's claim to GOATHOOD you can be sure his fanatics will come to his defense or high water and Vice Versa which leads to Square 1 again.

    I'm MORE than happy to accept that Nadal is NOT the GOAT but can other people also accept that Federer is also NOT the GOAT.

    Thank you
     
  4. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Here's the Nadal vs. Federer head-to-head:

    Rafael Nadal 21-10 Roger Federer
    2004 Miami R32: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 6-3)
    2005 Miami F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (2-6, 6-7, 7-6, 6-3, 6-1)
    2005 French Open SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3)
    2006 Dubai F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (2-6, 6-4, 6-4)
    2006 Monte Carlo F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-2, 6-7, 6-3, 7-6)
    2006 Rome F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-7, 7-6, 6-4, 2-6, 7-6)
    2006 French Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6)
    2006 Wimbledon F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-0, 7-6, 6-7, 6-3)
    2006 Masters Cup SF: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-4, 7-5)
    2007 Monte Carlo F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-4, 6-4)
    2007 Hamburg F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (2-6, 6-2, 6-0)
    2007 French Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4)
    2007 Wimbledon F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (7-6, 4-6, 7-6, 2-6, 6-2)
    2007 Masters Cup SF: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-4, 6-1)
    2008 Monte Carlo F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 7-5)
    2008 Hamburg F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 6-7, 6-3)
    2008 French Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-1, 6-3, 6-0)
    2008 Wimbledon F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-4, 6-4, 6-7, 6-7, 9-7)
    2009 Australian Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 3-6, 7-6, 3-6, 6-2)
    2009 Madrid F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-4, 6-4)
    2010 Madrid F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-4, 7-6)
    2010 World Tour Finals F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-3, 3-6, 6-1)
    2011 Miami SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 6-2)
    2011 Madrid SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (5-7, 6-1, 6-3)
    2011 French Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 7-6, 5-7, 6-1)
    2011 World Tour Finals RR: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-3, 6-0)
    2012 Australian Open SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-7, 6-2, 7-6, 6-4)
    2012 Indian Wells SF: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-3, 6-4)
    2013 Indian Wells QF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-4, 6-2)
    2013 Rome F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-1, 6-3)
    2013 Cincinnati QF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (5-7, 6-4, 6-3)


    Hardcourt: 7-6 to Nadal
    Clay 13-2 to Nadal
    Grass: 2-1 to Federer
    Carpet: 0-0
    In Majors: 8-2 to Nadal
     
  5. dooknookem

    dooknookem Rookie

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  6. octogon

    octogon Semi-Pro

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    I sort of disagree. The huge patrotic element and iconic nature of the Davis Cup gives it an advantadge over the WTF (which is a big tournament that doesn't really have that sort of iconic prestige, despite being decades old).

    Golf is an individual oriented sport as well. The golf equivalent of the WTF is the Fedex Cup. You win the Fedex Cup and you give a big fat check and ranking points......but most of these top players are millionaires anyway, so the money isn't neccesarily as big a factor as it might be for a journeyman.

    You ask any eligible top Golfer on the tour who can compete in the Ryder Cup and Fedex Cup, which they'd rather win, I think most would go for the Ryder Cup. Because while the FedEx Cup might give them a lot more money, they know nobody will care that they won it in 5-10 years time. Yet people still talk about great Ryder Cup victories decades after they took place.

    Top players play for prestige and legacy. You can get that with Davis Cup. Less so with WTF, though the money is nice.
     
  7. Safinator_1

    Safinator_1 Professional

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    BTW i Have and a general consensus is Nadal is greater, But as i said everyones is entitled to their own opinion in the end your nor mines have no weight/value at all.

    I can respect your views and opinions if you can respect mine. Neutral agreement.
     
  8. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    GOAT discussions really need to await the finalisation of a career, but Nadal does look set to overtake Federer in some important aspects. There is however many a slip ...
     
  9. bullfan

    bullfan Legend

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    You have conveniently left out other stats. Hewitt's numbers alone, as well as Roddick's show some numbers don't mean much.

    The reality is no player that is great has the same stats as others. That's why this is a non winnable argument, no matter what side one is on. Stats are used in whatever form to justify a position. When one cherry picks stats, it makes arguments more easy to use against the bias.
     
  10. Death Master

    Death Master Banned

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    thanks for posting this general mustard.



    clay is the hardest surface to win a match on.

    also nobody had more game and more variety according to many as roger did. and clay gives you that little extra time as well.

    why was he not able to exercise all of his so called endless options against a guy he called "one dimensional"?

    why was he not able to figure out nadal on clay. how many more chances did he need?

    the truth is that roger had no answers for his game and he would say so eventually.

    he said very specifically that the only way he was going to win RG was if somehow nadal was not there.

    and after that 2008 final roger said that the last man he wanted to see across the net was nadal. he was right.
     
  11. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Post 2008 is already post Federer prime so the fact is that head to head is a pretty much useless indicator unless you control for age.

    If you want to say 'father time' really beat Federer that's another matter.



     
  12. President

    President Legend

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    Clay Death was incredibly annoying on MTF, and he is becoming even worse here at TW as Death Master.
     
  13. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Post 2011 and we are already dealing with a Federer in the year of his thirtieth birthday, so a 7-2 advantage for Nadal since then tells us little.
     
  14. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    No they wouldnt. The posters over there all have Nadal above Connors and Lendl, and very few have him below Borg or Sampras. They would refer to you as a delusional Nadal hater just as we do.

    They would also give you a good lecture for insisting Federer is undisputed GOAT though, something almost nobody in that section thinks. Heck most there dont rate him the GOAT at all. So you would get the lecture, not any of us.


    PS everyone knows about half of Connors's time at #1 was a farce anyway. Even in the Former Pro Player Section that is the strong consensus.
     
  15. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The good news is that there is no GOAT title, it's just a subject of idle chatter.
     
  16. President

    President Legend

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    To be fair, Nadal first played Federer when he was just 17! If we count their matches before Nadal turned 22/23 (Federer's age when he became a top player) then it's probably fair to count Federer matches now that he is the one at a major age disadvantage. Federer was a top player for 9 years (2003-2012) as of now, and Nadal is already at 8 years (2005-2013)! It seems unfair to penalize Nadal for peaking early, I'm sure that many people on this forum won't say that he was past his prime for future losses to Djokovic or Murray. Nadal still looks to be going strong though.
     
  17. Death Master

    Death Master Banned

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    roger is no ordinary athlete. he is still playing at a high level.

    he took home a slam in 2012 so that is not that far removed.

    bottom line is that these players have simply forced each other to improve.

    roger`s greatest disadvantage now is that single hander. it is an awesome backhand but it is still not good enough.

    it is just a brutal game today.
     
  18. dooknookem

    dooknookem Rookie

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    Just because he was getting wiped all over every court by Nadal doesn't mean he was past his prime. It's just that Nadal was [barely] beginning to enter his own prime.
     
  19. Death Master

    Death Master Banned

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    age card wont work. hell just a few weeks he pushed nadal a little bit at cinci.

    that match went the distance. if roger had not been so damned trigger happy, he might have been able to win that match. he had no less than 44 unforced errors in that one.

    like I said, he just finished winning a slam in 2012. age card does not work.

    he is just facing tougher, improved competition.



    there are at least 13 players age 30 or over who have won titles so far this year. players are working hard on their fitness and constantly trying to improve.

    and roger is on a different plane: he has so much to work with.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  20. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    If you want to go that way. A teenage Nadal had a dominant head-to-head lead over peak Federer. Going into their 2006 Wimbledon final, Federer had lost just 4 times in 2006, and all 4 of those to Nadal.
     
  21. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    You know, it's funny that you say that. Here lately, I've noticed quite a few terms and debates that we use here at TT coming across the airwaves.
     
  22. Death Master

    Death Master Banned

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    its a damn shame that nadal lost that second Wimbledon final match to roger.

    nadal said roger won because of his serve. roger used to serve pretty damn big which covered up some of the deficiencies and he did not have many to begin with.

    also nadal had not played enough grass court matches so that did not help his cause either back then.

    so instead of 6 of 8, it could have been 7 of 8 for nadal.

    75% batting average in slam finals against roger jumps to 87.5%


    oh well. it is what it is.
     
  23. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    But NadalAgassi,
    There's a lot out there who believe Borg and Sampras is still ahead of Nadal, it's just you who wants to ignore it. Borg Number One can give you a good lesson about Borg and his placement in goat. Sampras has 6 years, 286 weeks #1, and 5 WTFs over Nadal. Who to say that Sampras doesn't have an argument?

    Nadal is no difference from Serena, which many folks still have Graf(goat), Martina, Chris and Court ahead of her.
     
  24. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    Age is a weak argument since Nadal aged 17-19 started off with a bang quickly going up 6-1 vs peak Federer in head to head. The age excuse also cannot start in 2008, not a chance. Nadal who started winning slams and rose to World #2 at only 18 is completing one of his best years ever at age 27. That is older or the same age as Roger was when losing his #1 to Nadal, losing Wimbledon to Nadal, losing the Australian Open to Nadal. I will only accept the age excuse perhaps starting in 2010 after Federer just completed a streak of 8 straight slam finals and winning 4 of his last 6 slams, including 1 of each. In that case though throw out all Federer's wins over Nadal before 2008, along with Nadal's wins over Federer after the 2010 Australian Open (or after the 2009 U.S Open, I really dont care either way). Federer is still only 28 at that point, and nowhere close to turning 29 yet. Only a year older than Nadal is now. Now what are we left with since you chose to enter age into the equation?

    A 6-0 slam record for Nadal vs Federer (Nadal's 2011 French and 2012 Australian Open wins over Federer thrown out since Roger was "too old" but Roger's wins over "too young" Nadal in Wimbledon 06 and 07 thrown out now too), and a 13-4 overall record (Federer's 4 wins over Nadal after 2007 being the only ones that count, while Nadal's 13 wins over Federer before the 2010 Australian Open being the only ones that count). Wasnt that fun. Please introduce a new game in the future.
     
  25. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    Laugh for the day.
     
  26. Death Master

    Death Master Banned

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    chandu is a federereeeeesian missionary of the highest order.
     
  27. redpurusha

    redpurusha Rookie

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    If you want to make a case by looking at H2H record, than going by that logic, Nikolay Davydenko is better than Nadal, Nadal is better than Roger .. therefore Nikolay Davydenko is the GOAT. unless someone owns him.

    Nadal is lucky not to have faced either of these two at the latest USO or he would have one less slam title.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  28. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    It never has made any sense.
     
  29. octogon

    octogon Semi-Pro

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    Of course many tennis commentators and former pros are reading the site. For most of them, it's part of their job to to talk about tennis. This forum and MTF are easily the biggest ATP-centric tennis forums on the net. If I was a paid tennis commentator/writer, I'd be checking this forum everyday to see what useful material I could use, or what latest arguments and theories fans were coming up with next.

    Pros and commentators are still fans of the sport like the rest of us, and they get off on seeing people talk passionately about the sport they love. Even if they only "lurk", as opposed to post anonymously, I expect a huge amount of pros and commentators have often checked here or MTF to see what's being discussed.
     
  30. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The thing is that the body ages, so its not a question of choosing some arbitrary age like 22 or 23 and counting from that point.

    Fededer is five years older than Nadal and tennis players hit old age after 26.

    The fact that Nadal hit his stride earlier than Federer gives him a leg up in the record book that I would not take away from him.



     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  31. octogon

    octogon Semi-Pro

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    Uh...there's a ONE match seperation between Nadal and Davydenko in the H2H. Statisically insignificant.

    Try harder please:):)
     
  32. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Nadal was going to even that up but Davy wasn't good enough to make it to Nadal .. going out in round three :oops::razz:
     
  33. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The only age variable I'm taking into account is old age, so I'm not into the business of arbitrarily selecting an age bracket and choosing a winner.

    I'm predicting a stellar old tennis age career for Nadal, by the way, but statistically post 26 is a bad age bracket for most tennis players.



     
  34. Death Master

    Death Master Banned

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    he cant. he does not understand statistics.

    I am sure he will bring up some other clown next who got lucky.
     
  35. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    Now that you mention it, it seems that ever since Nadal rose to the Djokovic challenge the roars for him have gotten increasingly louder. People tried to excuse the H2H as a "matchup" problem, but Nadal always had a "matchup" problem against Nole on hard court and everyone knows that.

    What's different is that Nadal has shown everyone that a matchup, no matter how unfavorable it is shouldn't keep you down. You have to keep picking and probing and finding ways to overcome the challenges.

    Nadal is a champion for the ages.
     
  36. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    If you take your logic seriously then by the time Nadal matured Federer was aready past it, so they never in fact really met at all.

    The reality is that head to head is a more telling statistic when the players are the same age as are Nadal, Murray and Djokovic.



     
  37. dooknookem

    dooknookem Rookie

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    Bro it's 2013, tennis players are not in "old age" after 26. Put the typewriter down. Times have changed, look around, not many people have mullets and wear jean jackets anymore you see?
     
  38. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    That's the historical truth of the matter and no amount of juvenile humour can change it, but yes the career length of tennis players does seem to be changing - slowly. We'll have more evidence in over the next three to five years!



     
  39. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    For the record, I think that Nadal should end up with an unequivocally better record than Federer but he has had a very lumpy career and its foundation has and will be the clay season.
     
  40. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    So true.....
     
  41. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    The arrogance of Federer fans is not unique to this board, I agree.

    Except on Federer's case his bad luck would be playing someone who played better than him.
     
  42. Death Master

    Death Master Banned

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    that is a great post.


    nole still leads 11-6 or 11-7 or so on the hard courts unless I am mistaken.

    but it must be noted that lot of players are vulnerable in best of 3 sets formats. these players today are just too good and they can knock you off in best of 3 sets formats.


    I can assure you that nadal has the edge at majors having beaten nole there countless times.


    also I am fairly certain that nadal is going to take down nole at the Australian open should they meet.

    finally 2011 was just an off year for nadal. he dropped his game and some of his fitness after the end of 2010 and it cost him.
     
  43. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    That's having it both ways.
     
  44. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    Wasn't the year that Wimbledon made him and Nole play those rain-delayed matches and they had to play back-to-back-back? Nole bowed out in the semi-final and Nadal's knee buckled in the final.
     
  45. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    Well I guess in that case Nadal just beat Federer a whole bunch of times and always had a winning record vs Federer when he didnt technically even exist then,and when Federer was peaked.

    As for Djokovic and Murray, Nadal overall owns them as well, although Djokovic certainly presents more challenge than Federer even in his prime ever could.
     
  46. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    Exactly. Novak has always bested Nadal on hard court, but Nadal has never given up trying. Consequently, he has managed to best Novak too, and in some very big matches on his least favorable surface.

    That's when the sands started shifting.
     
  47. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Excellent post, especially the bolded.

    Lol, those aren't holes, are you kidding me? So not reaching 8 straight USO finals is a hole now?. Don't be silly.

    How about Federer having won just 1 RG, and managing avoiding Nadal and playing a fist time slam finalist instead?. Just to name one.

    Oh, and I see you posted your little list, which includes things like slam quarters and consecutive slams played, and ignores things like most consecutive years winning a slam and career winning %.
     
  48. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    Listening to them, I'm convinced of it.
     
  49. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal rose to the challenge of Djoko this year.
     
  50. Death Master

    Death Master Banned

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    there is something very special about nadal. athletes from a lot of different sports have become his fans in a big way.

    here in America Michael phelps and LeBron james are huge fans of nadal for example.

    and that is just 2 among hundreds. lot of the European football superstars also speak very highly of nadal.


    what is special about him is that he does not cling to the past. he always looks ahead and always holds his head high.

    even in a single tennis match, he shows no inclination or propensity to cling to the last point if he lost that point.

    it is usually outward, onward, and forward with him. I think that type of thinking goes a long way if you are trying to solve problems on the court.

    you have to look ahead with a clear mind if you want to win tennis matches.


    and of course we all know that he is a superb athlete. he has remarkable athletic ability.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013

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