Agnieszka Radwanska's Open Stance Backhand

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by julian, Dec 15, 2009.

  1. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2009
    #1
  2. MichaelChang

    MichaelChang Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,253
    to save your life, I have to say this is a nice find!
    The key to this shot is shoulder turn. I am not a coach, just my own experience when practicing this shot.

    But it indeed is much harder than a close-stance 2hbh.
     
    #2
  3. split-step

    split-step Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    1,012
    It's pretty easy IMO.
     
    #3
  4. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    Please elaborate

    Please elaborate
     
    #4
  5. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    When to teach it?

    It is taught in two cases:
    1.very early in a junior developmemt
    2.for students of a very high flex,say.Willams sisters
     
    #5
  6. dman72

    dman72 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,997
    Location:
    Long Island, NY

    I was going to say, Agies backhand looks quite a bit like Venus' .
     
    #6
  7. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    For BB

    Your USPTA question can be ONLY answered by an E-mail sent to me-
    I am very sorry
     
    #7
  8. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2010
    #8
  9. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    It is not difficult to teach the open stance twohanded backhand. Much of the preparation that is used in the open stance forehand can transfer to the twohanded backhand. It is the same setup and planting of the back foot. The racquet tends to go back using the "smile" pattern of the onehanded backhand. From there, the normal pivot and weight transfer to rebalance applies.

    On a scale of one to ten, it would be a 3.

    The main thing with teaching tennis is ensuring that you keep it simple. The student and their natural rhythmic flow will connect the dots. The dots are your key instructional points, steps, positions, phases, frames. These dots should be based around fundamentals. Let the player grow and work at it for their own discovery and learning within the context of good fundamentals and your learning points.

    The feet can play a key role in helping a student get more comfortable with an open stance forehand. I have yet to have an issue with it. In the picture you showed above, the player is moving their feet and when they plant, they step out and away (open stance) for their timing step before bringing the racquet forward. Weight is centered and does not follow the right foot step right away. Back shoulder will rotate back into the ball over this stance.

    After the shot is performed, the angular momentum that is slowing down, allows the back foot to lift up and "come around" so that the player can push off to their recovery position.

    When you teach the open stance, a lot of it will come naturally because of the momentum one creates in the shot. In other words, if a player uses his angular momentum correctly, this will flow into allowing them to bring their back foot around for their recovery.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2009
    #9
  10. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    Open stance backhand is relatively rare

    Open stance backhand is relatively rare.
    Why ?l
    Majority of closed stance 2BB seem to be more efficient?
    Why?
    I can define efficient if pushed to a wall
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2009
    #10
  11. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    Who said it was relatively rare?

    The twohanded backhand is not a very good closed stance backhand although it can be done. Twohanded hitters should use neutral to open.

    Okay, define it.
     
    #11
  12. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    Merry Christmas

    May I wish you Merry Christmas first?
     
    #12
  13. MichaelChang

    MichaelChang Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,253
    off topic:
    Did the other OscarW. thread just got deleted? lol. how come every single OW thread always end up like that? :)
     
    #13
  14. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,365
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    Open stanced 2hbh's.....
    Easy if you adopt oft hand dominant with SW or W grips.
    Hard to be accurate if you use both hands conti.
    So grip makes a huge difference.
     
    #14
  15. UnforcedError

    UnforcedError Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2006
    Messages:
    145
    I use a neutral to open stance for my 2hbh I don't see why it would be considered hard.

    That thread about the Spanish RPT model might help to explain why an open stance would work well for some people. Actually it was in the videos in the thread where the guy talked about differences in weight transfer between an open and closed stance. Closed stance requires more forward weight transfer and open stance requires more body rotation and or something like that. I'm not a coach but it made sense to me and might explain why I hit a better 2hbh with a neutral to open stance.
     
    #15
  16. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,365
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    UE, betcha you also employ a SW or W grips for the 2hbh..... the topspin stroke.
     
    #16
  17. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    To amuse you 2 are gone today

    2 are gone recently "It is prudent to be prudent"
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2009
    #17
  18. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    Issue of grips and BB

     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2010
    #18
  19. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    deception and recovery

    Deception and recovery are of some importance in this comparison
    see
    xxxxx
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2010
    #19
  20. tennisguy2009

    tennisguy2009 New User

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    92
    this is a pretty interesting thread

    I am busy learning a 2hb, wonder if I can learn it open stance, initially my natural inclination on trying a 2hb was to try it in the open stance, but coach said don't so I never really tried it out properly.

    but the thing I hate about tennis backhand (both 1 and 2 handed) is that closed stance, it just feels so weak and unstable.

    I play forehand side super wide open stance, feels so strong, I can also hit the ball extremely hard with tons of spin.

    I think I have to try out the open stance 2hb.
     
    #20
  21. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    Thank goodness.
     
    #21
  22. Ano

    Ano Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    1,572
    Location:
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    #22
  23. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    You sure can. Merry Christmas to you!
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2009
    #23
  24. ms87

    ms87 Rookie

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    244
    open stance backhand is pretty easy to learn, the biggest problem for many people is learning not to pull away from the ball too soon
     
    #24
  25. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    5,484
    Location:
    Stillwater, OK
    Haha, nice little MTM parody you've got going on here.
     
    #25
  26. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,055
    #26
  27. MichaelChang

    MichaelChang Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,253
    #27
  28. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,055
    He started out saying he would post free instruction and no more plugging his products, and then plugged his dvds at the end of the post! I think he can't control himself.
     
    #28
  29. MichaelChang

    MichaelChang Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,253
    LMAO. Did he? I read that post but maybe he edited and added stuff. and now the thread is gone. :) never seen something like that.
     
    #29
  30. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    I posted on it. Not sure what else you want me to provide. It is a good looking slice balchand. Followthrough cuts off a bit short for my liking but all-in-all it is good.
     
    #30
  31. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,055
    He didn't post links, but mentioned the DVDs, as far as I can remember. It is gone now, so can't verify it. Funny thing about him is he is so full of himself that he cannot understand that he has been proven wrong on all counts by video evidence. He talks "over" others as if they don't exist. Only way he can avoid a debate and continue selling stuff I guess.
     
    #31
  32. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,465
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    Doesn't look like an open stance to me. Looks more like a semi-open.
     
    #32
  33. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,465
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    The moderators had mercy on him. Suresh, Bungalo, and myself were bombing him, his theories, and cult following into submission.

    The mods felt it was enough.
     
    #33
  34. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,055
    It started looking bad because the responses stopped. Had there been a debate, the thread would have survived. But it took on the nature of a one-sided discussion, but that was only because videos were found which enabled a concrete discussion. Instead of playing with words, we could actually see and evaluate for ourselves. Sadly, there were no clarifications or responses when the visual stuff was presented and challenged.
     
    #34
  35. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,465
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    ^^It was a shark frenzy:

    [​IMG]
     
    #35
  36. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    It was meat.
     
    #36
  37. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    #37
  38. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    Efficiency

    BB,it is for you.I will probably delete a post below tomorrow-taking 2 much time.
    I will expand a post below a bit more-I am stuck at my club-very sorry
    Couple of very random thoughts:

    1.an angle describing rotation is a measure of efficiency of a double handed backhand.
    It is defined as a difference of an angle of a final location of a ,say.right shoulder- an angle of an initial location of right shoulder
    It can be used as a measure of comparison between TWO players hitting
    a ball inside,say,a single court.
    The angle mentioned above may vary between 90 to 135 degrees.

    2.a variable(ange) described above is related to an amount of an angular
    momentum generated

    3.basically we may have an analysis of a forehand hit by a left hand of a right handed player.
    Therefore we could.if we want to, compare EFFICIENCIES of a left handed forehand with an open stance
    to a left handed forehand with a closed stance.

    4.a control element is a right hand.it has a characteristic shape called "a swan's neck"
    see Picture 3 of the original post.

    5.an axis of rotation is generally a right leg for right handers.
    Nicolas Kiefer is right handed but it seems that he rotates around his left leg-see Ref [1]

    References:
    [1]Duane Knudson "Biomechanical Principles of Tennis Technique" Page 107 a picture of Nicolas Kiefer
    [2]http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tour_strokes/john_yandell/serena_serve_and_venus_two_hander/serena_serve_and_venus_two_hander.html
    [3]

    PS From some reasons I cannot get Reference [2] in one straight line to be "clickable"
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2009
    #38
  39. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    Justification for "no"

    Please let me know whether your coach justified his "no".
    I USED to be of a same opinion some time ago
     
    #39
  40. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    The best stances for the twohanded backhand are from neutral or forward to open.

    The twohanded backhand becuase of the rotation it is using needs to have the hips free to swivel or turn.

    A closed stance by definition closes the hips which is not great for twohanders although they can make a shot with this stance.

    We are talking about what twohanders best choices are.

    For the onehander, because the rotation of the shoulders stops to let the arm come through linearily, the onehanded backhand can hit from a closed stance. However, because the onehanded backhand is more linear in nature, it is not a great stroke for an open stance.

    A twohander can hit from a closed stance but it is not the preferred stance. A onehander can hit from an open stance but it is not the preferred stance.
     
    #40
  41. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    I am completely lost

    BB,
    is your post above :
    a) a response to me
    b) a response to tennisguy2009
    c) none of above ?
     
    #41
  42. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    It is to the general discussion. If I address it to someone, I usually have their post in a quote. If I am using someone's post in quotes for my post but addressing it for general discussion, I will usually qualify that by saying so. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2009
    #42
  43. tennisguy2009

    tennisguy2009 New User

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    92
    ok, so I am 1 week into learning a 2hb

    today I tried the open stance and it feels much better to me than closed, feels more natural.

    what am I doing wrong and right? filmed myself trying it out today against ball machine, added some forehand footage for criticism too.

    was filmed in HD but the website made it much smaller, oh well.

    http://www.vimeo.com/8252918
     
    #43
  44. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    Justification for "no"

    Could you answer my post above entitled "justification for "'no"" ?
     
    #44
  45. tennisguy2009

    tennisguy2009 New User

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    92
    my coach, (who is a world class player), said that the reason he doesn't like the idea much for open stance backhand is because

    1) 99% of men players on tour do not use it
    2) he believes closed stance will give more power for winners
    3) he was worried that on harder shots to the backhand side, the super down to up kind of swing I was trying out is going to be too hard to control and time.

    however, since I will never be a pro player, he was willing to humor the idea, I don't actually think he had considered the idea of playing every single backhand open stance. He is pretty open minded about stuff for the recreational player (such as myself). He got more interested when he saw I can actually hit the ball with very few unforced errors in a practice relaxed rally using that open stance backhand (no chance I can do that in closed 2 hand backhand, I have trouble generating forward momentum with closed stance 2 hand backhand). Also in that open stance I can aim really easily, I can hit 100% of my shots cross-court, no problem, after using it for one day.

    All I can say is that to me, after playing that open stance backhand for about 3 hours, it feels much more natural than either the close stance 2hb or the 1hb. It feels a lot more like my forehand.

    I am going to stick with it for a month, if its not better than my 1hb by then I will re-evaluate. But I think its going to be much better, I can feel it, I am hitting it after 1 day even though i really don't know what I am doing yet.
     
    #45
  46. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    3,909
    Location:
    A green and pleasant land
    Carl Maes once told me "For forehands - hit open when you can, closed or neutral when you have to. For backhands - hit closed or neutral when you can, open when you have to"

    Not sure if it helps much here - but it's something i've always remembered!
     
    #46
  47. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Messages:
    31,167
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    This is great advice, IMO!

    The open-stance 2HBH works great on serve return or if you're jammed/short on time. However, it's not easy to get the timing down when on the run. It's not as natural for a righty (as an example) to hit an OS 2HBH.

    As a righty... it's more natural for me to plant my right foot to hit open-stance on the FH side and also to plant my right foot to hit closed/neutral stance on the 2HBH. Something to do with the left/right handed thing.

    I tried actively using the open-stance 2HBH but it's definitely not as natural when running laterally toward the ball.
     
    #47
  48. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    :), that is close to what I posted on #40. However, I didn't get that from Carl Maes. Except I do not agree that a player should follow the backhand information for the twohanded backhand. The twohander more resembles the forehand above. The onehanded backhand would work with what you have described because the onehander is more linear.

     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2009
    #48
  49. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    3,909
    Location:
    A green and pleasant land
    Agree, with your thoughts on the single hander being more linear - what if your 2 hander is bottom hand dominant? Top hand dominant would be similar to the forehand in execution, but a bottom hand dominant 2 hander would be more linear in execution.

    I can also see the arm configuration having a bearing - a bent/bent configuration (a la most of the WTA tour) would have more success from an open stance than a bent/straight or straight/straight configuration? Is this why we see it more on the WTA tour than the ATP?
     
    #49

Share This Page