Alan Trengove on Rod Laver. New Article

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by urban, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    I have a match on tape with Sampras from '95 USO, commentator Carillo brought up Pancho Gonazles who had died recently & said that while Sampras was a big fan of the 'old Aussies' due to his childhood coach, he knew almost nothing about Pancho or how good he was because he won so few majors.

    Outside of the internet(which is a relatively new thing) there is no record book that has much of what Pancho achieved. Certainly nothing on that huge board where past W champs are listed, which is easily in sight of all the current players as they walk to Center Court.

    Guys like Fed & Sampras only know who Laver is & a few other 'old guys' are (the whole 2 slams thing is hard for anyone not to know)
    and they know who Hoad is because Laver keeps talking about him.
    The path to becoming a great player involves hitting a lot of tennis balls, not studying about past champions. There are highly ranked juniors today who probably don't know who Bjorn Borg is, & I doubt their tennis history knowledge will change much if they become top players.

    I remember reading an article from '90 or '91 where Vilas said he was working out at the gym & talking to a top player from the time who was also there & the guy had never heard of Vilas before(Vilas had to explain he won some Grand Slams to him)

    Never underestimate how little pro players know about tennis history(I'll never forget when the USTA had 'Althea Gibson' day at the USO a few years ago & Fed said he had no idea who she was when asked at a press conference)
     
  2. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    If Djoker gets back to his 2011 form, he is a problem for everyone.

    Big if, though.
     
  3. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Much truth here.

    I have made this exact point many times. The pros spend 6-10 hours a day on court developing their games, not reading tennis history books.
     
  4. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Laver did face Anderson and Nastase at their peak form.
     
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    The average poster in this forum has better knowledge about former greats than the current top players have. It's a pity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  6. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I heard about that story Moose so I assume Sampras did learn a lot about Pancho Gonzalez after that. But you're right I doubt if the average top player knows that much about tennis history.

    It brings up an interesting question, which great player knew the most about tennis history? I don't think anyone can truly be sure but I'd be interested in people reading interviews or watching interviews about players discussing past great. You would assume guys like Kramer, Segura and Vines would have known because they lived through it. Maybe Laver because he was a good friend of Bud Collins. I believe Billie Jean King know a great amount of tennis history. She did write a book about women's tennis history.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  7. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    if you compare tennis to golf, i believe that golfers have much more sense of the history of their sport than tennisplayers.
    a friend of mine who was in the sports antiques business once told me that golfers buy much more collectibles and lots more books about the history of golf than tennis players
     
  8. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I think television talks a lot more about golf history and the past greats. You also hear about Nicklaus, Palmer, Hogan, Snead, Nelson, Watson, Bobby Jones etc. In tennis how often do you hear about Budge, Tilden, Rosewall and Gonzalez? I think we hear a lot about Laver because of his Open Grand Slam but they never talk that much about Laver the player and what else did he do aside from the Grand Slam. Tennis likes to push the present players which makes total sense but it would be nice to have them put in it perspective in relation with the history of tennis.
     
  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You know how high I regard Hoad, dont ya?
    But I think you better actualize Hoad vs Laver HtH
     
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You just know so little about pre Swiss tennis....
     
  11. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    i think you´re right about television. but i think they react to what they believe their viewers want to see
     
  12. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    You cannot really evaluate a player outside his good years, and for Hoad that only extends from 1953 to 1964. Anything before or after cannot really enter the mix.
    Likewise, should we evaluate Budge and Riggs on the basis of what they achieved in the 1950's? (and they played into the 1960's on the pro tour)
    Should we judge Tilden on his achievements from the 1940's?
    Should Laver be judged according to what he accomplished after 1971? Does this give us a fair appraisal of his abilities?
    For Hoad and Laver, the only period of overlap for their best play was 1963 and 1964, and during this time Hoad beat Laver in two tours.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I have posted some time that I truly believe that Hoad is the only man to have lived that could carry on the best ever Laver, that of 1965 to 1967, but he would need to be at his very best, otherwise Laver was steadier than him menthally and tactically.

    I cannot really hold on who was the best player between both during their brief overlapse, around 63 or 64.Laver needed some adjusting time to the pros and Hoad was there for long time.I guess we´ll never known about it, only that Laver inspired himself on Hoad.
     
  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Generally for 1963 and 1964 Laver was ahead of Hoad, especially in 1964.
     
  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, but Hoad had played tennis like a roller coaster, up and down for the last few years.how shaken would be his confidence?
     
  16. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    They played three tours against each other, Hoad winning two of them. That sounds like a consistent result.
    After the 1964 New Zealand tour, Hoad hit a dead spot, perhaps caused by foot trouble, and had his big right toe amputated a few months later.
     
  17. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

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    laver hoad

    In 1964 laver crushed hoad 18-5 in all matches including beating him 7-1 in a tour of queensland. hoad's few wins incude 3 in new zealand but they are no where near countering laver's dpominance in tournament tennis.

    In 1963 hoad has a 12-7 edge which incudes the first 8. but laver in the second half the year when he adjusted to pro tennis had a slight edge over hoad.

    jeffrey
     
  18. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Most of those 18 matches were AFTER the New Zealand tour when Hoad's foot was clearly limiting his mobility.
    And the 7 to1 Queensland tour was of LAVER'S HOME STATE, an opportunity for Laver to recoup some status after the 14 to 0 drubbing he took the previous year. Hoad was likely happy to help rebuild his close friend's prestige. (Laver asked Hoad to be his best man at Laver's 1966 wedding.)
     
  19. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Laver does/did admire Hoad a great deal.
     
  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ... and who wouldn´t? he was a classy act.
     
  21. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

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    laver hoad

    Hoad's foot problem was in 1965 when he had operation in the middle of the season; he missed the usa and european section of the tour coming back to play in south africa. Hoad played a full season in 1964 with no lets up for injury. He played at least 24 tournaments not winning any of them plus tours queensland and new zealand; doesn't sound like an injured man to me.

    jeffrey
     
  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    jeffrey, please note: Hoad was always injured when he lost a match, according to Dan...
     
  23. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    That sounds like an injured Hoad to me.
    The foot problem was a chronic injury, causing him to miss the 1961 championship tour.
    It recurred sporadically, causing reduced mobility, a result of his service motion and stress on the large right toe. It affected his results from 1961 onwards.
     
  24. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Good joke. Actually, he had chronic injuries throughout most of his career, following the serious back injury caused by a training exercise he invented while in military service in early 1954 in the Australian army.
    He did pushups with round 50-pound weights on his back, and continued this exercise after leaving the service later that year. This caused serious problems, two ruptured discs and herniated disc problems.
    It was operated on in 1978, the year following his final retirement from senior play. A spinal fusion in 1983 finally corrected the injury.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  25. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    He had mononucleosis.
     
  26. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Mono means tired; this guy was never tired,
     
  27. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I guess that one went right over your head.

    It was a joke: a humorous reference to the claim that Fed only loses when he is injured or sick, e.g. the AO semi 2008.
     
  28. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    As I'm sure you have seen, this isn't an issue with Fed fans alone. :lol:

    *******s, *******s, Djokotards, Hoadtards, Lavertards and so on and so forth can simply not accept when their favorite player loses (even decades later!). There is always an excuse. The newest trend in general pro player discussion is the "tank job." We ought to just throw out all of the actual results and grunt at one another.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  29. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Laver lost the WCT Finals in 1972 not because he was injured or sick, but because "the little thief" won the last two points.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSXETXKi7OI
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  30. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    I thought it was "that bloody thief." :lol:

    I have always thought that clip should be the official clip for Former Pro Player Talk.
     
  31. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Actually, Hoad also never WON unless he was injured. We are referring to chronic injuries.
     
  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    you are right.1972 WCT finals still stands as the best ever tennis match played
     
  33. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NadalDramaQueen, My respect that you chose exactly that clip.
     
  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Bud Collins ranks it as the best played in open era. But he once told me that the 1966 US Pro final (Laver beat Rosewall in five) was the best L&R match he has seen. I guess that the 1964 and 1967 Wembley finals were also great matches.
     
  35. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I'd give certain body parts to have one of those on good quality DVD.
     
  36. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Don't give anything valuable.
     
  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    guys, dear all, the 1972 WCT final is certainly the greatest match to ever be...not loaded here¡¡¡

    I wonder if anybody on earth, still is able to upload it...maybe Charlton Heston?
     
  38. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

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    hoad's injuries

    1961 is not 1964. Hoad's march 1961 injury was a different injury; he pulled a tendon in his foot. He was out of action for a few months. He came back in july 1961 as a full-time tournament player; in fact he played more tournaments than Gonzales and rosewall in 1961. It was the same in 1962 as he played more tournaments than Rosewall. In 1964 he played as much overall tennis as Rosewall and more than Gonzales and Gimeno. In '64 He entered all the main tornament not withdrawing from any of them. Once he started an event he did not give any walkovers or retirements. To play as much top flight international tennis as hoad did from july 1961 to the end of 1964 and be competitive (hoad was still winning matches) means that he was basically fit to play and uninjured.

    Hoad still produced a fair ammount of good performances in this period. In the second half of '61 he beat Gonzales 2 times out of three including a big win at the wembley semi-final. In '62 he beat Bucholz in a long 5 setter in the semi-final at Wembley and then extended Rosewall to 4 long sets in the final. In '63 he beat Laver 8-0 in january (He seems to have gone into extra training for this to be extra fit; maybe at other times hoad was bit casual about his fitness.) Overall though Hoad struggled to win tournaments. he did not win any in '61. '63 and '64. He won a couple in '62 when the competition was less; only Rosewall of the great players was there; Gonzales and laver did not play the pro tour in '62. In '64 with Gonzales and Laver there as well as Rosewall , Hoad really struggled with no wins from 24 attempts in tournaments.

    jeffrey
     
  39. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Summary: Great talent, not too smart.
     
  40. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Whoa, whoa. Slow down.
    Hoad had a CHRONIC (as in continuous) back injury from 1954 on, and an extended series of matches could always leave him unable to play.
    Take a look at his pro numbers.
    In 1958, he took about four or five months off recovering from back problems, and still played 110 singles matches on the American and Ampol world championships, plus several more in Europe and minor events.
    In 1959, he played 109 singles matches on the two championship tours, plus many more in Europe and in minor events.
    Probably about 150 singles matches in 1959, and a few less in 1958.
    Probably about 60 or 70 pro singles matches in 1957 in several tours and tournaments.
    Well over 300 singles matches from July 1957 to January 1, 1960.
    Money winnings, about $200,000 in 1958 alone, well over $100,000 in 1959, about $400,000 in his first 2 1/2 years as a pro (dollars then worth about 20 of today's dollars), plus much more in commercial endorsements and activities. In today's money, about ten million in 2 1/2 years.
    During this time, many more matches and more earnings than Laver achieved in his glory days in the 1960's, Laver played about 122 matches (perhaps including doubles?) in 1969, perhaps his busiest year.
    Hoad went semi-retired in 1960, and look at how many matches he played after this.
    For 1960, leave out Jan. 1, the last singles match of the 1959 season.
    In 1960, including the New Zealand tour, a total of 36 singles matches. This was like a vacation after the previous three years.
    Similar or fewer numbers for each subsequent year.
    Plus a gain in weight, reduced mobility, recurring foot problems caused by the greater body weight which put stress on the right foot and toes.
    Get the picture?
    There was no "pro tour" in 1962, and Hoad tired at the end of the Wembley final with Rosewall.
     
  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    jeffrey, Thanks that you disproved Dan's claim that Hoad was injured almost every day and every year...
     
  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Laver's busiest year was 1962.

    There were several smaller pro tours in 1962.
     
  43. Dedans Penthouse

    Dedans Penthouse Hall of Fame

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    Poppycock fanboy.

    Big, fat, huge poppycock.

    That is all.
     
  44. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    What part of his statement is inaccurate? Limpinhitter, who is as big a Laver supporter as any, also said as much. I don't see how anyone can read it and not agree.
     
  45. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Yes, he played through his injuries. The doctor who operated on his back in 1978 said that it was a miracle he could have played tennis at all.
     
  46. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    How many matches did Laver play in 1962 (I mean singles matches)?
     
  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, it is a serious candidate for official clip.Still wondering if we will ever see it in the internet...
     
  48. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    I have that full match. I will upload it if you open your mind. :lol:
     
  49. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    182. He won 167...
     
  50. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    That is a large number.
    However, easy going in the early rounds, of course.
     

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