@ all sandbaggers

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by JT_2eighty, Oct 10, 2009.

  1. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Professional

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    I find it amusing that when "practicing" everyone is always looking for someone better to "practice" against... but when it "counts" eg. ntrp tourney or league where scores recorded via usta site for all eternity, that same person is a "sandbagger".

    I would love if 5.0's played down, even if they clobbered me 0 and 0... it's a free lesson!
     
  2. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Theres a guy in our area that posts on the tennis Meetup.com looking for 5.0 billing himself as a "4.5-5.0".

    Hes a 50 year old 2.5 thats been playing for 1.5 years and has no match experience.

    I feel bad for the folks that get burned by him.

    He told me he prefers playing with advanced players.

    Oh well what can you do.
     
  3. heartman

    heartman Rookie

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    Let me guess, you play on a Mpls/St Paul team and one of the opposing captains was Eric Narvaez.
     
  4. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Eric is a good guy, eratic at times but he means well. Looks good in black socks too.
     
  5. Inner Game

    Inner Game Semi-Pro

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    Thats what USTA tennis is all about.....it's mostly about captains that never achieved much in tennis or sports in general who want to get the National Champion T-shirts so they can walk around their club and act and look like they are great players.....
    USTA tennis use to be fun....but if your going to play...this is the stuff you will get year after year...


    I'm out
     
  6. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    At least I'm a junior where everybody pretty much competes in the same tournaments to try and get scholarships and there's not really anybody playing down for cheap wins. I feel bad that once I graduate college, competitive tennis will probably be a big joke for me (unless I miraculously develop into a pro player in the next 6 years)
     
  7. Inner Game

    Inner Game Semi-Pro

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    Hahaha the biggest offender in Mpls year after year is Greg Garritys teams....can you say sand bag..stack...sand bag and more stack...

    Get use to it.....guys like this live their lives planning their USTA seasons...year after year...LOL
     
  8. goober

    goober Legend

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    High level amateurs really don't compete in USTA leagues. For the most part the leagues top out at 4.5 in most areas. Some places do have 5.0 leagues, but not many.

    5.0+ players pretty much do what you are doing now- they play tournaments year round but at the Open level. I assure you it won't be a joke unless you live in the middle of nowhere(tenniswise) or you really are 6.0+
     
  9. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    I'm FAR from 6.0 now I'm around 4.5 but like I said I won't be finished with college tennis in almost 7 years (this is my last year of high school, redshirt my freshman year, then 4 years of eligibility) if I practice as much as I practice now I might be 6.0 before I graduate ;D but like I said, I would just hate to be in that situation where I had more time committed to other things and I just played in a semi-competitive league for fun playing against 4.5 guys with 9.5 epeens. WTB sportsmanship.
     
  10. heartman

    heartman Rookie

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    Inner Game, so true...so true...
     
  11. North

    North Professional

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    Yeah, that pretty much nails it.

    They should get rid of Nationals (and Sectionals, all the way down) and just make it a big game-matching service with local chapters. (I have heard that Ultimate Tennis takes this approach - wish they were in my area.) The motivations, then, would be continued improvement for individual players and enjoyment of the sport and competition for its own sake. Kind of what the "Inner Game" is really about.

    It's been more effort to gradually collect a group of people I can play, without having be on a USTA team with the attendant shenanigans, but very well worth it. No sandbagging, no stacking teams, and reasonable line calls.
     
  12. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    It's true you'll run into a couple teams that only exist to make it to the playoffs and go thru them. So they'll waste their entire season to do so. I dont like that part of it either, but that's where their motivation is for some people....

    But to say that's "all" it's about is wrong. Most teams in the regular season are there just to play tennis. (thru the regular season at least)

    You're being illogical again. You claim in the other thread that you'll play open all the time and there should be no levels.

    But then you complain because some team is sandbagging. It makes no sense to me.

    Stop being such a negative nancy. If you're going to make a point at least have some proof and make sense.

    It sounds to me like you're the kind of person who spends a lot more time looking down on other people then you do enjoying whatever it is YOU are personally involved in.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2009
  13. herrburgess

    herrburgess Rookie

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    Actually it reminds me more of the "Evil Sensei" dads from back in the middle school/rec league days who would scour the applications for all the stars (usually including their sons) so they could stack their teams and win what must be considered an even more ludicrous championship: that of the local 7th grade rec league.
     
  14. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    I know, I do it so I can be compared to guys I'm competing with for college sports and scholarships, and not playing people the coaches have never seen in their lives ya know? I mean, if you were a coach trying to compare recruits would you rather see a guy with a 5-2 record against some person he's never heard of or 5-2 against one of the top players in your city and someone that's gonna go to a mid-high D2 school? I mean if I get matched up with someone that's like 12, I make note of that as well, but when it comes to guys I go to school with, it makes a difference, in my opinion.
     
  15. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    ^This^ person clearly is not interested in a t-shirt or a pen. Or a sling backpack.

    Wait a minute. You mean nobody actually cares how well we did back in junior high school sports?
     
  16. Inner Game

    Inner Game Semi-Pro

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    OK Javier, I can see your point...if you ever did play USTA tennis you would see this sand bagging, stacking going on at every level....To discount this by my lack of facts means your not to familiar with USTA tennis....
    As far as most players just play USTA leagues to play tennis.....Almost every person plays tennis to win....otherwise you wouldn't keep score...How often do you play without keeping score....not often I bet....
    The thing I dislike about the USTA leagues is it suppose to be fun....and promote tennis....If this was about fun and meeting new players then it should go to a blind draft....and let the luck of the draw decide teams...that will never happen....
     
  17. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Thats a VERY interesting idea.

    But, its WAY too political for that to ever happen. I think its a great idea.

    But, as we all know all the captains are in bed with the coordinators and all are vying for their own piece of 3.0 glory.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    My team is a new 4.5 team, and we have played 5-6 matches so far. It has been incredibly fun for all of us so far. Even the teams going for the big numero uno spots have been intense of course, but everybody was having a great time competing hard.

    I don't see how keeping score makes it a must win situation or any less fun. Why can't people just enjoy playing great players, winning some, losing some, and learning? It's just plain 'ol fun trying to win those matches. Nobody is getting paid at the end of the matches. Put things in perspective.

    I don't understand this mentality. Of course everybody plays to win because that is what you are supposed to do in tennis or even chess. What you have to realize is there are actually people that enjoy the entire process of trying to win for the sake of running around, hitting shots, and having FUN. It's FUN playing the game - the whole game. If you can't enjoy without winning, there is a deeper issue such as somehow linking your winning or losing with your self worth on a deeper subconcious level.
     
  19. film1

    film1 Semi-Pro

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    We are usually told when to loose, sometimes my captain will say, loose around 2 and 2 or 2 and 0 or 4 and 4 depending on who we are playing.
    Sometimes he will say win but keep it close so we get up, let the other team get close and them close it out.
    It's hard because I play in the 4/4.5 club league but in team I am a 3.0 and I have to let all these 3.5 win.
    It's fun though because we get to go on trips and they put our name in the every issue of Tennis League Central.

    Some people act like it's not fair which is silly because when we get to nationals some teams are better than us.
     
  20. LafayetteHitter

    LafayetteHitter Hall of Fame

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    In Lafayette I have seen some 3.0 league matches with guys close to 4.0. In Flex league there is a guy who is a solid 4.0 that plays the 3.0 and 3.5 then goes around talking about how great he is because he is the 'champion' of the 3.0 league for two years. I guess if it helps him gets his fingers around his 2 incher and get off that's good for him. For me I just laugh when I see the idiot. After all the only people who know you won Flex league is the 5 other ppl you played because the general tennis population don't even know what it is. Sandbaggers are all a joke in my book. I met a guy that told me he had played college and had played for 25 years and self rated to play 3.0 league in Baton Rouge and was bragging how he was winning all his matches...hmmm you think so?
     
  21. film1

    film1 Semi-Pro

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    Sometimes it's hard to loose to people that are real bad so I have a couple of ringer racquets with a couple of stings glued together. I will get up a couple of games, break a string and guess what, I have no control with my other racquet and everything goes about 6 inches long.
    It's like taking candy from a baby.
    I keep those for when I have to tank to a 3.0 player once in a while.
     
  22. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    One level is not that big of a deal. I play with a woman quite a bit who is a lower level than me, and I don't win every point. She hits some winners. It allows me to try some things I might not try, and not worry if I hit some bad shots. When I serve, I hit all second serves...and you know what? That is good practice too. It has made my second serve better. Frankly, often I get more out of an hour with her than I do an hour with an 'equal' player.
     
  23. Casey10s

    Casey10s Rookie

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    For the people who always complain about players competing at a lower level, have you thought of volunteering to be a member of an USTA committee? This way you can influence policy and get something done instead of moaning and getting nothing done. If enough people get involved on this, the current situation can be changed if you feel strongly about it. If you are going to whine, be prepared to have a solution and be willing to work on that solution.

    BTW, to show that I am not here just to complain, I am on a district board in my area and provide regular input on different USTA topics. 'Sandbagging' is not a current topic on our list since we have not had any formal complaints on it.
     
  24. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    My wife is a sandbagger (sorry hon'). She played in a 3.5 league this year, and could not understand why opposing captains tried getting her DQ'd. Well...maybe it is because she routinely beats 4.0 MEN in matches and volleys better than 4.5 men? And because in her 4.0 league she played in, she never lost a set? Hmmm... :)
     
  25. robert

    robert Rookie

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    I am second on this. Our captain/coach did exactly same thing. Every year, he finds non-rated 4.0, 4.5 and 5.0 players. He will put 4.0 players on his 3.0 team, 4.5 players on his 3.5 team, 5.0 players on his 4.0 team. And he will let them play doubles or make close games in the first year. In the next year, these players will be C-rated players . And they will help his team dominate others in the following years. So his teams always go to National. Sometimes, he got 6 or 7 teams go to National in the same year. But his teams still can win most of the National Champions.
    BTW: He isn't the only one did this. More and more captain/coach did it now. And his teams had a bad year this season. Part of the reason is that other captains found stronger self rated players.
    There is a joke about him (say Nate).
    A: I think if Roger Federer wants to join his USTA team, Nate will put him on his 4.0 team.
    B: No way. Nate will put him on his 3.0 team.
     
  26. LafayetteHitter

    LafayetteHitter Hall of Fame

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    Does that make her feel better about her pathetic little life? If so that's good for her.
     
  27. LafayetteHitter

    LafayetteHitter Hall of Fame

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    The question about this type of behavior is, why does the tennis community complain about a lack of new people wanting to play league tennis. Where are the legit 3.0 supposed to play. Since the 4.0's are playing 3.0 to compete in the long dong contest it's no surprise that many tennis players think league is a joke. Honestly most of the league matches at my club below the higher levels look like a bunch of stiff arm tennis elbow wannabe's walking around in USTA shirts like they are on the tour wanking off to their record.
     
  28. LafayetteHitter

    LafayetteHitter Hall of Fame

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    Why not play your level and break a sweat then? Or is that not good for your ego and the wife won't think you are such a big man anymore?
     
  29. film1

    film1 Semi-Pro

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    She is glad I play 3.0, she always tells me, try not to break a sweat because I want to go out to eat or try and win or loose fast so we can make it to the 8:20 movie or make sure you have your dress clothes in your locker.

    She is very proud of me.
    My name is on the 2008 3.0 champion board.
    I also came in 2nd place for the 4.0/4.5 club league but the 3.0 champion board is much nicer and you can see it as soon as you walk in.

    It's not all honors and pats on the back, it can be very boring at times but I look at it as a way I can give back to the league.
     
  30. robert

    robert Rookie

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    Every year, there always some new good players to join his teams or others teams. And they were educated that this is the way USTA works.

    Since the game is always close (when necessary), the beginner players are also happy. Not every team has the goal for National Champion. There are always teams just want to play a league to have fun. And these teams aren't care about sandbagging at all.
     
  31. Xisbum

    Xisbum Semi-Pro

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    I remember; you're that character in the movie Silverado called Slick, played by Jeff Goldblum.

    Yup, same character, same honor, same guy. Cool.
     
  32. film1

    film1 Semi-Pro

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    This is true and they fill a necessary role in the system.
    We call them "League Rats" and sometimes you have to loose to them and when you do it's great because they leave happy, we leave happy and everyone feels good.
    I often use my old wood racquets I had in the 70s to make it more interesting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2009
  33. SlapChop

    SlapChop Semi-Pro

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    If anyone posts a video in the tips section they will be rated as a 3.0 by someone so maybe that is why these people self rate the way they do. I am interested to see how I end up. I am playing my first tournament this weekend. I am self rating at 3.0, I have no idea what to expect. I don't know if I will blow them away or if it will be vice versa or if it will be a competitive match. I have no idea how old my opponent is, I have never played against anyone who is rated.
     
  34. film1

    film1 Semi-Pro

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    I would rate a 2.5 unless you played high school tennis or you can easily beat 3.5s
     
  35. robert

    robert Rookie

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    When they educated the Rookies, they always say that look at that guy who is rated 3.0. I didn't rated him. The computer rated him 3.0. Do you think you can beat this guy. No, then you should play 3.0 period.
     
  36. film1

    film1 Semi-Pro

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    Tell them you have a bad knee
     
  37. film1

    film1 Semi-Pro

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    I am teasing, I never would have any desire to play people below my level and would rather play people better than me even if that means loosing bad.
    I can't remember the last time a legit 4.0 actually won the 4.0 division in a decent sized tournament.
    I have seen legit 4.5s get mad when very high end 4.5s or 5.0 players enter and beat them in the 4.0 division.

    Some people can't stand to loose and they would rather play down and dominate and some play down because there are not enough players to make a higher bracket.

    The directors have to know whats up if they have a clue but it's all good and I like having a chance to compete against better players.
     
  38. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    It is interesting. In her case, back in January, she WAS a 3.5 level. She was not able to play for months due to knee problems, and her mobility was limited. So she self-rated at the proper 3.5 level. HOWEVER, by the time the season began, she was playing at a MUCH higher level. By the end of the season, ...even higher.

    So who is at 'fault'? My take is there is a personal responsibility to play at the right level, no matter what the computer says. If you are playing at the 4.5 or 5.0 level..you should play 4.5 or 5.0...not 3.5.
     
  39. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    Who cares if she is playing below her level? Those people get to play with some quality opponent. That is a big positive in my book.

    Only people who care about others sandbagging are people who sandbag themselves.
     
  40. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    Hmm, I really unleashed a monster with this sandbag topic, eh?

    All I know is that when I play in club leagues, if I'm not being challenged I want to move up. I've only gotten better playing equal or better players. It is also true, as someone pointed out, that when you play less experienced players, you can kind of mess around and try out your weak drop shots or sidespin or second serves the whole match, and yea the practice is fine, but after a while that gets old and maybe I'm just a nice guy but I'd feel bad ripping actual winners on people below my level. And I like to rip winners.

    When I first started leagues they just threw me in 3.5 because I was never rated but had played high school 10 years beforehand and had good mechanics. I was playing guys twice my age and worked on drop shots and second serves but would go home bored. Every now and then had a decent match so that was fine, but then I joined the 4.5 league and got my butt handed to me on a weekly basis. The 4.0 didn't fit my schedule so they put me up at 4.5 with a disclaimer that I'd get creamed. I would go home frustrated, but sweaty, and with knowledge to use as I got back into the game.

    Now I'm still in that 4.5 league and trade wins and losses with these guys, but it's all for fun, within the club, no trophys, pens, shirts, plaques, etc, and that's what it's all about. Whether or not the club 4.5 is actually USTA 4.5 I don't really know or care, but all I know is the challenge level is what keeps me going and looking forward to the next week. In the city interclub leagues, top courts in 4.0 was much like this 4.5 club-only league, so I feel I'm at the right difficulty setting where I can play my game and often split sets, be challenged and happy win or lose. I guess for those at 5.0 and beyond, I can see how it's more and more difficult to find consistent challenges so they have to play down, and so be it. I just found it funny that some that have to do so enjoy ripping the unnecessary winners instead of practicing their second serves.
     
  41. LafayetteHitter

    LafayetteHitter Hall of Fame

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    Wow I feel better, I thought you were serious. Good post I believe you are completely correct that the directors know what's going on.
     
  42. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    Yea, I was almost fooled by those posts too. I thought I had finally found the answer to my OP, which I guess he did answer: some of these captains are just in it for the plaques on the wall or their names in some magazine that 99% of people never see or heard of. So for them, all I can say is "oh well, enjoy playing that 'game' and the rest of us can stick to tennis."
     
  43. Inner Game

    Inner Game Semi-Pro

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    Play golf for fun....people play tennis to win...and the truth is you have to put a beat down a person mentally and physically (shot making) in a tennis match, unless your skill level is so far above the other player...then it might be just for fun and exercise.....but players of similar levels its all about a beat down mentally...
    That's sports in general.....

    To not acknowledge that means your just lying to yourself.
     
  44. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    Speak for youself.

    I play for fun. I don't care too much about wins or loses. If I had fun playing, that is good enough for me.

    If I wanted to win at all cost, all I have to do is play people below my level, and there are plenty of those. But I don't find that as much fun as playing people signficantly better than me and losing. So I don't put too much into what the final score is.

    I don't care too much about "beat down" mentality. Those are the kind of people who argue about line calls, cheat, curse, throw racquets, and generally behave like an a-hole on the court. I avoid those people whenever I can.

    No thanks.
     
  45. Bk_Mais

    Bk_Mais New User

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    Agreed! Lately, I have been encountouring ppl who just do these taunts (if u will) to throw you off your game..Thats a different topic altogether anyway.. As long as I am playing good, it doesn't matter If I win or lose.
     
  46. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    I think it's possible to play for fun and to win. I'm generally a nice guy, so sometimes on the court I find myself holding back if I'm up against what *seems* to be a weaker player. All of a sudden, I'm down a break or two and scrambling to get back in, and then I've lost. It's FUN to play to win, as long as you aren't playing weaker players *on purpose* to get _easy_ wins. That's the difference.

    I think the key words here are "players of similar levels". If you know you are playing at more or less the appropriate level, you can put yourself in "beat down" mentality and still play to win AND for fun. You give it your all, leave nothing behind on the court, but at the end of the day, win or lose, any day on the court is better than the same time spent at work, etc.

    That's what I try to do. You can play for fun and to win. I think smoothtennis said it best:
     
  47. 10esplr

    10esplr New User

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    Thank you for the explanation!
     
  48. Matt H.

    Matt H. Professional

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    I tend to look at people's results and consider them sandbagging if their record winning percentage is greater than 80%.
     
  49. burosky

    burosky Professional

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    To a certain extent this maybe true. However, don't forget those who have been playing in a certain level for years (veteran) who gets lucky and play against opponents who just got bumped up (rookies) to the same level for the whole season. In a case like this, the "veteran" could theoretically have an 80% or better winning percentage.
     
  50. Matt H.

    Matt H. Professional

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    ok, slight possibility. but you're talking a very rare case.

    80% is 4-1, or 8-2, or 12-3, or even 16-4 if you guys have seasons that long.

    if a guy goes out and finishes the year with a 15-1 or 14-2 record, it is 99% certain he is playing at an incorrect level.
     

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