# @ all sandbaggers

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by JT_2eighty, Oct 10, 2009.

1. ### buroskyProfessional

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Here again don't be too sure. How about someone who goes 16-0 for the season but all the matches were won by a super-tiebreak? Let's make it even more interesting. The sets this theoretical player won were either one break sets or tie-breaker while the sets lost were lop sided. Is the player a sandbagger? I'm not trying to argue. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

2. ### gameboyHall of Fame

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Let's follow your logic. Let's say this guy was 50-50 on all matches and just happened to win all those tiebreakers.

The chances of this guy going 16-0 in that situation is 1.53E-05, which is pretty much zero.

So the former poster's argument that 99% of people who win this many matches are under-rated is still valid. He is probably under-estimating the probability.

3. ### buroskyProfessional

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I apologize for being mathematically challenged. I don't know how you came up with your calculated answer. Be that as it may, by you saying "pretty much zero" instead of zero chance means it can happen. All I'm saying is you can't just generalize because situations or circumstances are not always the same.

4. ### gameboyHall of Fame

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Just multiply 50% (50-50 chance) 16 times (16 matches). That will give you the odds of an evenly matched opponent winning all 16 matches.

And, yes, you can generalize because you have a better chance of getting hit by a lighting while playing then someone to win 16-0 with all tie breakers.

Records speak for themselves.

5. ### OrangePowerHall of Fame

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True, but we can use similar math to examine the odds of having a good season without choosing such extreme examples.

As a more realistic example, consider a player who has a .75 probability of winning an individual match against any other player chosen at random from the same level. This would place the player at the higher end of the level, but clearly not a sandbagger (still has 25% of losing any match).

Now if we calculate some odds, we end up with a 10% chance of this player going 8-0. Unlikely, but definitely plausible.

How about the chance of going 7-1 or better? A very realistic 37%.

6. ### damazingRookie

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Tennis isn't like flipping a coin with an equal probability of players winning matches. If the hypothesized player went 16-0 with all matches ending with a super tie break then s/he was a stronger player when it mattered.

A mentally tough player playing a player that has similar skill level but who is not mentally tough is more likely to win than not.

7. ### JT_2eightyHall of Fame

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Where I play there are club leagues like 4.0- and 4.0+ etc.

I went 13-3 in 4.0- last season, so 81.25% win and I did decide to move up to 4.0+

So far this season, I'm 5-1, but like the others said, I've actually won 4 of those in 3rd set tiebreaks, so does my current 83% win mean I am sandbagging? If i lose this weekend I'll be down to 71% but if I win, uh-oh, I'm sandbagging at 85.7% ?

I tend to be a come-back player, and I have a decent tiebreak win record. I guess I'm mentally tough when it counts, but all my matches have been competitive on both ends and never have I completely overpowered the other player. Statistics can only reveal so much, the rest is left to common sense. I've had good matches and feel I'm at the right level. Hopefully I can move up to 4.5 for more challenging opponents. Time will tell.

8. ### Ken HoneckerRookie

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Some players, or team are simply better at finishing. My softball team won lower league championships 4 years in a row. But we won every one by a single point so I doubt if much of an argument could be made that we were playing below our class. Heck in 06 we beat a team early in the tournament by 4 or 5 then had to face them in the championship. Fortunally we were in the winners bracket and they had to beat up twice as they crushed us 23-2 before we won the final by a run.

A good player or team can go undefeated and still not be sandbagging if some of their games are reasonably close.

9. ### TenS_AceRookie

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X2..I was in a "club tournament" last weekend, pounded the guy in the first set, at second set change over, I put my racquets in my bag and zipped it up. I told the dude that I play tennis to have fun, it was obvious that he wasn't having fun by total self degradation and trying to *uck with the scores. As I left the court I told him that it was obvious that HE needed the win. Then I asked him if tennis affected his pay cheque? If tennis affects your paycheque, I'm in the wrong league, and last time I checked, I'm not on the ATP,MASTERS or Grand Slam series!!

10. ### ProstafferSemi-Pro

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Bravo! i did the same thing in a league playoff. the guy beat me during the season, not by much and was a terrible line judge! if i hit the line it was out. if i called it out, when it was out he questioned. He even messed with the game scores like i'm an idiot and on a change over i quit and told him to enjoy getting smoked in the next round. he obviously needed the trip more than i did.

as far as level, i play in a basketball league and my team won the "A" league two seasons in a row. The next year (we dont' play in the summer) we only won 2 games in that season and moved down to "B". Totally different teams that year in both leagues. We finished second but won the playoffs.

Overall population really effects this. Anyone who takes lessons knows this. Sometimes you have to play in a lower level class because there is no one to play with. Now playing in a class and a league are a different thing. On this I agree.

I taught tennis in college and we had issues all the time with club levels. At some clubs the 4.0's were real 4.0's. At our club they were more like 3.0's, but they wanted to move up and we realistically couldnt' fill a 4.0 class.

The ironic thing is that in leagues it seems everyone plays down a level.

When it comes to registering for classes everyone wants to get into a much higher class than they belong to.

I just realized the irony. My life is complete...not really.

11. ### TenS_AceRookie

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X2...The ironic thing is that in leagues it seems everyone plays down a level.

When it comes to registering for classes everyone wants to get into a much higher class than they belong to.
:shock:

12. ### ProstafferSemi-Pro

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its true where i've taught. you get alot of "well i'm better than so and so; so i must be a 3.5" or "well i've played for a long time so i must be a 4.0"

13. ### benaspSemi-Pro

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Am I the only one who would like to get beaten by better players. I mean, this is not professional tennis son the only thing that matter is getting better since winning doesn't give much.

Where I live, people are happy when a better player accept playing with you.

Maybe the sandbagger has an ego issue if he down himself just to always win. But the player complaining about it maybe have an ego issue too. Maybe the "sandbagger" can't play at a higher level and just want to be able to play some tennis.

14. ### buroskyProfessional

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It seems to me most of those who complain about sandbaggers are those who think themselves as sandbaggers as well. It's like saying "I'm a sandbagger so if I lose to someone, that someone must be a sandbagger". Just my personal observation. Your experience may vary.

15. ### JavierLWHall of Fame

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I think you are right in one way and wrong in another.

I dont think anyone's saying by complaining that they played a sandbagger that they dont want to play a better player. We can play better players in all sorts of situations, but it doesnt have to be in a competitive league match.

But if someone goes to the extent that they think their season is ruined by it or they got nothing of value out of it because of the ONE sandbagger they encountered I think that's a little much.

But you do lose something. Whether you somehow think "not being professional" makes it less important or not, it is a competition.

Tennis is a competitive sport and playing in a league is about trying to play your best as a team so you can try to win first place. (or whatever place you can manage so you feel good about yourself)

Winning first place could be about concepts like showing up to the matches and playing your best, having a better mental attitude then the other team for that day, or just plain being a better player then they are (within reason).

But instead sometimes it's about some captain filling his team full of players that are several levels ahead just because his ONLY goal is to get all the way to Nationals. Sure it doesnt mean the league is "ruined" or anything but it does rob the other teams of an experience if they could of otherwise won first.

(and it's retarded)

I think the "it's not professional" argument can just go away. You say it's all about "getting better"? Here's a newsflash, YOU WILL NEVER BE A PROFESSIONAL.

So ya, you can "get better", but getting better can mean a lot of things among which are just getting thru a match and winning it, and especially if you're in a playoff like situation that you put a lot of stock into.

So you might as well enjoy whatever it is you are doing, rather then assuming that it's somehow less important then a bunch of strangers on TV that you dont know and that you have no real personal stake in their success.

16. ### JavierLWHall of Fame

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I see that sometimes it's funny.

Some guy who hasnt lost a match in 3 years will usually get very insulted when he finally loses a match.

I saw in 3.5 once where a guy even won a match and was complaining "because his opponent was the only person who's made it a contest so his opponent CANT BE A 3.5.....".

Usually it's because their only reason for even having a team is just to get to the playoffs or sectionals or nationals or wherever. They'll waste an entire season of whooping every to get there and they are insulted when they finally hit a bump in the road and dont make it.

Then sometimes when they do get bumped up, rather then just "have fun and play tennis" like everyone else is supposed to do, they stop playing league tennis.

(usually when someone is miserable when they dont win to the extent where they would rather not play, that's a good indicator that they dont really ENJOY the activity, they just enjoy the cheap rush you get from winning, it could be a tennis league or playing flip the coin, it doesnt matter they just like winning.....and they cant stand losing.....)

17. ### Inner GameSemi-Pro

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Javier....I agree with almost every thing you said in this post....But contrasting winning to a cheap rush is totally off base.....If your in a competitive match with someone your level or better and you somehow manage to win....That's an awesome feeling...If your drubbing players 2 levels lower then you....Yeah then its cheap rush.....
You should judge yourself....and not kid yourself about your skills. But don't kid yourself....winning is what every sporting event is about!

For what its worth!

18. ### JavierLWHall of Fame

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For what it's worth, LEARN HOW TO READ WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT I AM SAYING!!!!

You cant just stare at 3 words, think it means one thought and go at that.....

If you are only happy when you win, but you are miserable when you lose to the extent that you didnt want to be there, then that feeling of winning is just a cheap rush.... You dont really appreciate what it takes to win in that case.....

Im talking about a particular sort of person. (the kind who will usually do anything to make sure they are in a winning situation rather then work at it)

19. ### Inner GameSemi-Pro

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Well, take it easy tennis boy.....why would anyone feel bad if they played good but lost to a better player.....unless you have a problem between what skill level you think you are and what you really are...

Sorry if I jumped the gun on what you were trying to explain...

20. ### ProstafferSemi-Pro

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i think he's talking about that type of person that is near suicidal after a loss. no matter what type it is. you know the type that thinks losing is the absolute end of everything in their world.