Allowing 2 5.0s to play 4.5 per team

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by bezerker, Aug 4, 2012.

  1. bezerker

    bezerker New User

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    Our USTA leagues are allowing two 5.0 rated players to play down per team. These players must play 1s or 1d. I'm shocked by the rule, but am happy about it. This is going into effect when our indoor leagues start next month. Is this nation wide? Anyone else heard about this?
     
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  2. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    If they have no 5.0 division due to lack of teams, then what are they supposed to do ? Lay around and become couch potatoes and develop atherosclerosis and then what ?
     
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  3. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Also, we had this happen in our division and it is allowed under the circumstances i mentioned. but they were allowed to join the team that was in bottom half of division standings in previous season
     
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  4. TENNIS4FUN2

    TENNIS4FUN2 New User

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    This is a new national rule that is in effect with the new age divisions for 2013. I think that they are also allowing two 5.5's to play on a 5.0 team (if your league has one).
     
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  5. bezerker

    bezerker New User

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    Umm what? I don't know what elicited this response. But yeah, we have 5.0 leagues as well. I guess it is nationwide. Was just curious.
     
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  6. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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  7. tenniscasey

    tenniscasey Semi-Pro

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    What a weird new rule. I can't imagine a convincing justification for it. Seems like the USTA is actually encouraging sandbagging.
     
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  8. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I've heard about this rule applying to the new 40+ 4.5 league, but was not aware it would apply to regular Adult as well. Maybe that's up to each section to decide?

    In NorCal, the 2 5.0s can only play at either #1 singles or #1 dubs. Which will be interesting... USTA has always said that 'officially' there is no relevance to #1, #2, #3 in terms of order of strength, but clearly now they are contradicting themselves. It's gonna suck for the 5.0s - when teams face a team that has a strong 5.0 singles player for example, they will just concede that line by sacrificing a weak player in that position, knowing that the 5.0 has to be at #1.

    Anyway, personally I'm excited about getting to play some 5.0s... not that I think I have much (any) chance, but still it's a nice challenge. Ask me again after the season though and I might have changed my mind depending on how bad the beatdowns have been!

    At the team level, I think this is going to widen the gap between the top teams and the rest. The top teams will be able to attract 5.0s and will get stronger, and the weaker teams will just have more of an uphill battle.
     
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  9. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    I think it's a good rule. Now the army of
    Craigslist and TW posters who are
    5.0 - 5.5 will be able to play league.:)
     
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  10. wings56

    wings56 Professional

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    its about time. i was going to let my usta membership lapse this year since i'm not able to play any league. this is by far the most exciting and best thing they possibly could have done to further the game.
     
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  11. TennisDawg

    TennisDawg Semi-Pro

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    I have no problem with letting them compete in 4.5s. My only question though is why many are so stand offish and see it as a waste of time when lower level players ask them to practice hit or play practice matches. Beats laying around right?
     
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  12. escii_35

    escii_35 Rookie

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    The new 40+ league is all about providing playing opportunities for the aging tennis demographic. Previously singles slots for the older player were rare. A 5.0 slot for the 50+ player -> lol.

    Right now I can spend $30+ for a chance in a no-add one and done singles tourney or be miserable playing dubs on a senior team. Unless there is lots of beer or cute things in skirts on the court I find dubs a big ick.
     
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  13. jservoss

    jservoss Rookie

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    I like the new rule for the 18+ 5.0 league. I've had too many friends who I can have fun competitive matches with who are stuck at 5.5 because of self rating rules or league results. The 5.5s I know that are interested in playing in the leagues are not so significantly stronger than the 5.0 players to ruin the league.
     
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  14. Conrads

    Conrads New User

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    its shouldn't be a big deal because on good usta 4.5 teams the #1s players and sometimes the doubles are 5.0s anyway
     
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  15. TommieF

    TommieF Rookie

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    Very true. I also agree with orange's comment it will widen the gap. The top one or two teams in 4.5 will attract the top few 5.0 players. That's how I see it
     
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  16. 5point5

    5point5 Banned

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    Because most of the time people like you tend to overestimate their own skill. No point in wasting our time when we could be making $$$ of you because essentially we are giving you a private lesson for free.
     
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  17. Setmatch45

    Setmatch45 Rookie

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    It is going on in Middle States. Should be a good rule interesting as to how it will work out. I know 2 5.5 players who are going to try to go down to 5.0 for this and the abilty to go to nationals at both 4.5 and 5.0. Fill the sand bags!
     
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  18. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    I wonder if having 5.0 players play more matches against 4.5s will tend to drive their ratings toward 4.5 - once again having the ripple effect of pushing better players into having lower ratings.
     
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  19. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

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    You could also take the stance that it will push 4.5s that *should* be rated as 5.0s up to where they need to be. If the 5.0 is 'bench marked' and the 4.5 is 'self rated', and the 4.5 wins, or loses in 3 sets, then they'll bump up the 4.5, not the other way around.
     
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  20. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    That's true, regardless of whether the 4.5 is self rated or not... if a 4.5 ends up playing a 5.0 and the score is close, the 4.5's dynamic rating will increase, whilt the 5.0s will decrease.

    As to the net effect this whole thing has, it really depends on who ends up playing the 5.0s. IMO, if good 4.5s end up playing the 5.0s and do ok, the net effect will be more 5.0s (the good 4.5 may be promoted). But if bad 4.5s end up playing the 5.0s, the net effect will be less 5.0s - the 5.0s won't be trying hard, will lose more games than they should, and will end up possibly being demoted.
     
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  21. Darkhors

    Darkhors Rookie

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    I don't mind the rule at all, it gets more people involved and as said before, most of the 1 singles guys are probably 5.0's anyway. I also think the idea of making them play 1S is that they essentially have to play against the other 5.0, if there is one. The USTA finally did ONE thing right by adding this exception.

    DH
     
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  22. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Yes, but...

    It also means, if you are playing against a team that has a good 5.0, and you don't have a 5.0 on your team, then you know exactly which line the opponent 5.0 is going to be playing. And you can stack your lineup accordingly and feed a sheep to the wolf :)

    I think it's going to be hit or miss for the 5.0s. They will get some good matches against other 5.0s or top 4.5, but then will have to suffer through some blowouts of helpless lower 4.5 sacrifices.
     
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  23. TommieF

    TommieF Rookie

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    I would agree. Great idea by USTA. 2 5.0s on a team. But many times they will get somewhat of a lamb in the one singles spot. Still the idea is good.
     
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  24. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I may be wrong because the sample size here is small, but I dont think many 5.0's play USTA league tennis. This "rule" sounds like an effort to get more people into adult leagues which I think is a good thing.

    I know a few college players who have not signed up for USTA because trying to find a 5.0/9.0 team is nearly impossible here. I dont think there are any 5.0 teams, and the 9.0 combos are very small, about the size of 2.5, and maybe 3.0 now days.

    A 5.0 self-rate is not something any wants to be when they're looking for a team simply because they're either a self-rate (risk) or they're limited to 9.0 doubles since 5.0 adult is practically non-existent.

    I can totally see this as a business move for USTA to get 5.0's active in adult league since they can now play 4.5 and not be limited to 9.0
     
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  25. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Professional

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    I also heard a rumour that there will be a limit on the number of players per team that are playing above their rated level.

    Is that true?
     
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  26. cneblett

    cneblett Rookie

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    Here in Florida, there is a max percentage that can play out of level. 75% of team must be at the level. So on a 4.5 team with 12 players, 9 must be 4.5 and the other 3 can be 4.0 or from what I was told, 4.0 or 5.0 on a 40+ team. This is supposed to become a national rule is what was told in a captains meeting. Not sure when it will become national but that is direction
     
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  27. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Professional

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    Not sure what the rationale would be for restricting the number of players
    playing above their level...

    If a 4.5 Team doesn't have enough 4.5 players, they should be able to field as many 4.0 players as they wish.

    And why implement this restriction only for the 40+ league and not for 18+?
     
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  28. catfish

    catfish Semi-Pro

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    This is in the 2013 USTA National Rules draft, which is available to all. There is a link to National rules from Tennis Link:

    2.01A NTRP Levels of Play:
    - Changes 5.0 NTRP level to 5.0 Plus (+) NTRP level in Adult Division, 18 & Over League Type
    and changes 4.5 NTRP level to 4.5 Plus (+) NTRP level in Adult Division, 40 & Over League
    Type.
    - Allows all Plus (+) NTRP level team rosters to include up to two players from the next higher
    NTRP level.
    - Requires Plus (+) players to always play in the #1 position, either #1S or #1D.
    - Allows only one Plus (+) player to compete in a team match when the Plus (+) NTRP level
    utilizes only three individual matches within a team match.
    - Allows two Plus (+) players to compete in a team match when the Plus (+) NTRP level utilizes
    four or more individual matches within a team match.
     
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  29. cneblett

    cneblett Rookie

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    The 75% restriction is for all numerical based leagues, I.e. 4.0, 4.5, etc. so in 18+ at levels below 5.0 the restriction is strictly on percent of team at level.

    Reason for restriction is to ensure the teams are "competitive" and similar in level with each other. A team in individual week does not have to play 75%, they can play any number, just restricted on team membership
     
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  30. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Rationale is that 4.5s for example prefer to play other 4.5s, rather than 4.0s playing up.

    Think of it as reverse sandbagging.
     
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  31. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Professional

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    That's understandable.

    OTOH, I have seen many players quickly improve by playing 0.5 level above their rating.

    This rule would give them less opportunity to do that.
     
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  32. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Although I don't enjoy playing lower rated players, I agree that it's an opportunity for them to improve. And there are some lower rated players that are close to the next level and are competetive there. That's why I think the rule is reasonable - it still allows some room for lower rated players on a team (25%), whilst ensuring that most matches will be competitive.

    Actually I would do it differently: I would grant automatic appeals to anyone wanting to appeal up. And then I would not allow playing up *at all*. So if for example a 4.0 thought he could be competitive at 4.5 (or improve to be competitive) and wanted to play at that level, he could appeal up and get a 4.5 rating, and then would be able to play on 4.5 teams without restriction.
     
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