Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by kiki, Mar 2, 2013.
At least you made me laugh
Kiki. Kiki. Kiki.........Kodes is your uncle right?
Mighty Federer, you are clearly wrong: kiki has much more knowledge than the "experts" of Tennis Channel!
I read that too quickly, you're right he was referring to barcelona.
They are journeymen journalists.I can forget more tennis than they will learn in their lives, and the same some other posters in this forum who went through decades of tennis experience...anybody can do what they do, with a labtop.That is why their lists are often senseless...not to mention the influence of whisly...
I don´t think I have God given blood...
Thanks Bobbyone.You are also one of the expert posters I refeered to in my post.
at one point in the match, Lendl went beserk and asked in an abrupt Lendl´s way the supervisor to come.Wilander didn´t even glared at him.Lendl was coming up even on second serves and Wilander just mistified him with his passing shots.In the final, Vilas won about 7 or 8 games.
my list was about the players they beat ...
the fields in those tournaments included many more impressive players
kodes only beat panatta and orantes in madrid 75
FH 71 and 73 runs were very good
RG 71 - franulovic wasn't that great, ashe wasn't that good on clay , nastase was good , but not yet at his peak that time , still that one win was a good one ...but again, no Laver/Rosewall ...he lost to laver @ rome 71
Kodes didn't meet any of pre-prime connors, first Wimbledon borg and bombed out Nastase in Wimbledon 73 ... that was a joke of a major with 13 of the 16 seeds missing and 81 players missing overall
I know plenty enough to know this post is full of spin, hyperbole and exxaggeration. There are plenty of posters around here who know about Kodes and his career, the difference between us and you is that were look at it objectively and not through rose tinted glasses. If you want our respect for your opinions I recommend you show some respect for ours.
I will respect if you do the same.OK?
You want hiperbole? here are some: " Djesus" " Tennis Master Federer" and a few others...
More epics from Kodes.
Barcelona Trophy 1972
QF: beat current FO champion Andres Gimeno in literally Gimen´´ s back yard ( he lived a few meters away from the club house)
SF: defeats Ilie Nastase, back then considered the best cc player in the world and next to be FO and IO champ
F: beat Manuel Orantes, IO champion ( so he beats the winners of the two biggest cc events of the year at their home garden)...again, like in those former matches, in straight sets
I read a better description of Kodes in your former post.You seem to be learning real, non tinted glasses history...I wishe you could have lived in the Golden Times, sorry
Have I ever used that kind of hyperbole during my tenure on this board? No, so do not even try to say I have. I do not appreciate that implication. Of the two of us you are the one guilty of hyperbole, not me.
As for opinion..it is one thing to create an opinion based on facts, it is another all together to warp the facts like a press agent and selectively ignore facts you do not like in order to inflate the reputation of one of your favorite players.
I honestly believe you know your history, but you spin it horribly to suit your own agenda. It is one thing to debate, another to warp. I am more than happy to debate and discuss, but when it is based in reality.
That said..I am done..ignore time.
I never said you used hyperbolic terms, I was refeering to other posts I have seen on those boards.
I don´t inflate facts, rather than outstanding them since many people here don´t know them and cannot make an appropiate judgement without knowing them.
most posters here should thank me for that...but I don´t mather if they don´t, being generous means giving without expecting a payback
abmk seems to be making an effort to learn tennis history...I am very glad of my contribution to that.It´s been very tough and very long but it´s been worthy.
However, I am hopeless about TMF...
don't flatter yourself. You've done nothing to contribute to my learning of tennis history. I've been posting long enough about tennis before the 2000s :
14th Oct, 2009 :
Courier Bruguera French Open 1993 finals match stats
4th Aug , 2010 :
Players excellent at taking the ball on the rise
20th Apr, 2010,
best returners by decade
Sampras Stich 1992 Wimbledon QF stats
To cut a slightly long story short, you can have a look at the threads I've started :
Did you post that Connors and Mecir had the best serves of the 80´s???? man, you need my lessons urgently if that is true.Never heard anything like that.Not even themselves would consider themselves in the top 50 of the decade´s best servers...
LOL, you two are such a clown. They are well knowledge people which the tennis channel chose them for their expertise. THey have all the qualification, while you two only have the qualification to post on a public tennis forum. Big difference !
Seriously, if the experts picked Jan Kodes as #1 you guys would say how intelligent/knowledgeable they are. LOL again.
boredone, Why so harsh against kiki? I found his list rather impressive.
Mighty Federer, Can you contribute some positive issue or only insult people who doubt your expertise? A person who defends Tennis Channel cannot be knowledgeable.
kiki, Kodes played also excellently at the 1975 Kitzbühel tournament (Austrian Championships) where he lost in the final to Panatta only by 6-2,2-6,5-7,4-6.
By the way, on the same day (July 13) a certain K.R. won the Swiss Championships against Meiler (who had beaten Vilas in the SFs) in straight sets. R. was 40 plus then...This and other late claycourt results of Muscles lead me to my opinion that Rosewall, together with Laver, would have been a favourite at the 1970 to 1972 French Open.
that was a typo. the thread was about the best returners of the decade ....
I never said Kodes is nº 1, but I´d laugh my ass off if I saw the names of some of those ranked ahead of him.
The only expertise thsoe journeyman have is whether 15 yrs old bourbon is better than 12....
And, it needs to be no big expert to know that, while Laver has three grand Slams, Federer has to earn his first...LOL
actually anyone with proper knowledge would know he won only one true GS ... Winning all pro slams and amateur slams != winning the true GS ... especially when rosewall/hoad were quite clearly better than him in 62-63 and that he did get upset by drysdale in 68 USO and lost to rosewall at 68 RG ... he was no lock for the GS in a full field in 67 ...nowhere close ....
Of course, you can´t count Rosewall or Laver out for the 1970,71 and 72 RG titles.IMO, Rosewall and Laver didn´t feel too comfortable playing on clay for a gruelling 14 days event such as RG.But when one recalls how brilliantly Laver won Rome in 71 with a straight sets win over Kodes in the final...well, as I said, you never know.
Good post on Kitzbuhel and Gstaad finals...I also remind that Rosewall reached the North Conway finals before he lost to Connors by 1975 or 1976...
Ok, then it is true...but did I see Edberg ?
yeah, edberg was a very good, under-rated returner IMO ...as far as the second half of the 80s and early 90s go, he is definitely up there ...
Yes, I agree Laver had a poor 68, winning only Wimbledon with a straight sets victory over that humble journeyman, Roche.
I menat 1969 Grand Slam...
The best returners were Connors,Mecir and Jarryd.Lendl,Becker and Wilander could return with the best, so could Henri Leconte 8 astonishing sometimes), but they lacked the consistency of the top three.
never said he had a poor 68 ... just that he did get defeated by rosewall @ RG and by drysdale @ USO ... so how does exactly is he anywhere close to a lock for the GS in a full field in 67 - even though he was quite a bit better in 67 than he was in 68 ...
would he have a brilliant season in a full field in 67 ? given his form, yep, absolutely .. lock for the GS ? nowhere close ...
68 is as close to 67 as it is to 69...and you know what happened in 69, don´t you?
With the weak competition Federer found from 2003 till 2007 and no GS...Laver has three in front of some of the best ever players and certainly doggy competition.
Now, the big question is...how many would the Rocket have if he played such fields as 2003 till 2007????
1. Kodes was part of the winning Davis Cup team in 1980, but only played 1 rubber in the finals in doubles. His team would have likely won the Cup without him even playing.
2. Wimbledon in 1973 is the weakest field ever to populate the event in the open era and possibly ever, and Kodes did not play any of Conners, Borg or Nastase to win it...but Kiki writes he won it over them which while technically true glazes over the fact he didn't play them. I could say Francesca Schiavone won the French in 2010 over Henin, Serena, Sharapova and Venus...sounds impressive until you realize she didn't actually play any of them.
3. The 2 clay events Kiki points out are impressive wins I will admit with no problem what-so-ever. But Barcelona in 1972 was the only clay event he won that year. He lost to Orantes in Italy and Nastase in Nice. He also lost in the QF of the French that year. Madrid in 1975 is similar in circumstance. It was the only clay event he won that that year and he lost in the 4th round of the french to jauffret (career high ranking of 20). Yes they were impressive but not the whole story on clay those years.
4. Alexander is not a top guy. He never got past the 4th round at any major but the Aussie.
Thats the gist. Kiki is a knowledgable poster...but likening Kodes to a Greek god and to insinuate those of us who disagree are not knowledgable is ridiculous. The selective picking and choosing as well as the borderline arrogant dismissal of any counter argument has, for me, gotten to be to much. The knowledge is there..but so is the blatant agenda.
yeah, he did win the GS in 69, but had quite a few close shaves - vs roche @ AO 69, vs crealy in RG 69, stan smith, lall @ wimbledon 69 and ralston in USO 69 ....
just one of these sort of matches going against laver would be enough to end the shot @ a GS in 67 ....
not to forget rosewall's form was poor in 69 and he was quite a bit better in 67 ..
John Alexander seems to be underrated again by some posters with the " Hidden Agenda" so wonderfully ran by Ken Loach... John made it to 3 WCT finals and ranked nº 8 in 1975.
And not only a GS, Laver also won the SA Open, the fifht greatests event of the year, as well as the most important indoor event, at Madison.
So Rosewall was in bad shape in the 69 RG final but was excelent at 68 RG final and 1970 USO f??? somebody has a blattant agenda over here...
these are the players he'd have a good chance of losing to :
AA @ 2003 AO, 2004 AO
nadal @ RG in 05, 06,07, wimbledon 2007
safin @ AO 2004,05
nalby @ AO 2004
roddick @ 2004 wimbledon
hewitt @ USO 2004/2005, 2005 wimbledon
well, I should have added, if court conditions and rackets were the same as 69...sorry about that.
Yes, I think laver would be surprised if he ever played hewitt.For a staunch aussie fella, such as Laver ( or any other true aussie champion of that time), to see a countrymate moonballing from the baseline would probably cause inmediate retirement.
no, that's the reality ..
rosewall was #2 in 68, arguable #1 in 70, but ended 69 @ #5 ( according to tingay anyways ) .....
he won only 3 tournaments in 69 ...
most of the reports of the RG final in 69 say rosewall was lackluster ...part of it is available on youtube ... it shows rosewall missing some shots that he should've made in his sleep ....
coming back to Kodes hating, those fellas got astonished when i published the field at madrid 75...and they are having goosebumps right know when they know for the first time in their lives what path did kodes overcome to take Barcelona 72
how to handle a serve and volleyer
that's a routine field for what you'd call a masters 1000 now or one of the super 9 in the 90s ... kodes only beat panatta and orantes ... very good, but nothing extraordinary ....get real ...
at this moment I think it would be easier for Laver to win his Fourth Grand Slam than for federer to win his first...
of course, this would be the weakest GS Rod ever won...but I doubt he will, honestly, he said that after 1970 he didn´t give a damn for traditional majors, and I don´t think he´s changed his thoughts...
You mean, the old fart shadow of Sampras that showed up at the 2001 USO final?
I never said Madrid and Barcelona to be a GS...
yeah, dream on ... laver only won one true GS ... that's the reality ...
you have absolutely near zero clue about tennis in modern times - which is why you group Hewitt with a bunch of clay courters ....... ROFL !!!
Yes, North Conway in 1975 also. In the SFs Rosewall defeated Nastase by 7-5,1-6,7-6. No wonder that Muscles was rather tired in the final. It's a pity that Rosewall met Connors always only in the final. In an earlier round the former would have had better chances.
Rosewall also won the 1975 River Oaks at Houston against a tough WCT field.
Thus you easily can rank Rosewall among the top ten on clay for that year.
yeah, the very same sampras who beat rafter,agassi and safin in a row at that USO ....
he's 5-4 vs sampras, with 2 wins coming in 2000, when sampras ended the year @ #3
9-1 vs henman
3-1 vs rafter
abmk, You are the very first to neglect that Laver won a true GS in 1962.
anybody can have a 9-1 record vs Henman.he is just average player
ABMK has not seen my post about swiss chocolate tablets and GS titles...there is a big link between both¡¡¡
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