America's Cup yachting discussion

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Bobby Jr, Aug 22, 2013.

  1. MAXXply

    MAXXply Hall of Fame

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    #51
  2. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    It's getting close now. Oracle had two very good wins today after managing to defend upwind in both races (ETNZ was almost 30 seconds quicker upwind in the 2nd race today), and making the most of the two port entries they had.

    Tomorrow NZ has port entry for both races so it'll be interesting to see if they can win either and be ahead at mark 2. Upwind I think they have a slight edge on Oracle in most conditions, downwind the other way around.
     
    #52
  3. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    See? Like I said, tis rigged. Monday, Oracle won again, in the lightest minimum breezes.
     
    #53
  4. BlueB

    BlueB Hall of Fame

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    It is getting a bit strange... NZ won the start... to lose the start by not accelerating?
     
    #54
  5. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Wish I saw that race. I'll bet I can find blame, even if it's not there..:)
    I hate to call anything "rigged", but this sure has the signs. Fans needed, and with Kiwi's well ahead, they're not packing the stands. Not packing the stands hurts all the merchants, the city, and the organizer's pocketbooks.
    Financially, a losing proposition, even though projected revenues were quite high..
    More races, more money. Everything is set up and ready to receive the money, only spectators are lacking.
     
    #55
  6. BlueB

    BlueB Hall of Fame

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    There were more crazy things yesterday... NZ trailing quite a bit, then coming with some crazy speed on one d/wind tack and completely closing the gap, just to tack away to other very unfavorable tack (almost going away from the mark) and sailing into a hole. It's a thing that a weekend sailor, or a head case like me :D would do, but not those guys.
     
    #56
  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    To the defense of Kiwi's navigator, tactician, and skipper....
    Crissy is a tough place to figure, especially at 1PM when the winds were going from a thermal SW towards an ocean breeze WNW that sometimes goes SW up at BlackhaullerBouy, but can shift radically W at the Ft.Mason area.
    Low at around 3:45, the ebb at 1 favors the narrower boat, as pounding windswavelets slow a wider hull, but on foil mode, should matter less. However, Oracle is favored in higher winds and bigger chop, downwind, while the Kiwi advantage seems to be upwind and flatter water, less wind.
    Lots of mini currents out there, eddy's on ebbs, and dead spots due to thermal activity that far east (Ft.Mason).
    Even a know it all like me has been fooled by the currents/windshifts in dozens of slalom and course races, and 3 Oneill Classics.
    But I still think it's rigged.
     
    #57
  8. dParis

    dParis Hall of Fame

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    I'm a very novice sailor, but it's my understanding that all sailboats are rigged. Otherwise, they couldn't sail, no?
     
    #58
  9. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Actually, in the world of sailboat racing, there are many examples of rigged race events, for whatever reasons. Among the racers themselves, they usually keep it to a tight circle of peers.
    I used to work at SausalitoSailboats, and thru them, at Gate6 in Sausalito, occasionally crewing, and I was amazed at how slack the skippers can be, especially since a little effort would have netted huge results.
    My bud, a navigator for Merlin (TransPac boat, usually in the top 10), mentioned the same thing.
    As a crewman on one of the top 3 Cal 25's in SanFrancisco, the skipper, now a honcho at WestMarine, would really try on some races, and on other's, barely make the effort even when the crew was extolling him to make a tactical change to our advantage.
    OTOH, maybe that just reflects the world of business, buddy favoritisim, don't step too harshy on future partner's shoes, etiquitte, and upper class dealings.
     
    #59
  10. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Tomorrow back on with higher breezes apparently... .well, higher than the past 3 or 4 days.

    Odd regatta huh? Once Oracle have got their moding sorted they've been solid and NZ have had a couple of astonishing scenarios where they've had races canned while they were leading.

    I always think fluke events even out eventually so will be interesting to see the next few days.
     
    #60
  11. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Well, being over the start line 2-3m ahead is not exactly winning it when the other boat is closer to the mark. Oracle just got trimmed and onto their foils like 2 seconds earlier than NZ and that was it.

    See comment just above.. Oracle were literally 2 seconds earlier on the foils. The acceleration once up is generally too quick to claw it back and Oracle were moded more for reach/downwind speed then defend upwind.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
    #61
  12. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    You misread the situation. They had a vein of pressure just after Oracle did a terrible gybe into a dead patch. They caught up 250m and then, when they got to Oracle, gybed away towards the boundary so they could eventually gybe back and lay the mark... BUT, in the seconds after they gybed Oracle got a puff which was 6 degrees off the course orientation which meant not only could they lay the mark but NZ was sailing directly away with a VMG of 0 :shock:... unbelievable luck for that to happen at that moment.

    They also had a race the other day where NZ was a 1500m ahead on the last downwind leg with barely 2 mins to go and the race was stopped for going overtime. Again... darn!
     
    #62
  13. BlueB

    BlueB Hall of Fame

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    The thing is, NZ was closer to the next mark and inside boat. They won at the startline...

    That's another thing - it shoulden't happend.
     
    #63
  14. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    My bad,.... I meant they should have been in an advantaged position being on port.

    Again, that's sort of like saying "Federer should just ace him on break point"... no s***! The boats, even when next to each other, don't have exactly the same pressure at any given moment and the balancing act of getting them up on their foils is not exact at all - it entails having the wing trimmed just right and then easing the angle of the foils to get lift.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
    #64
  15. BlueB

    BlueB Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I'm aware of all of that. However, when you are sailing im patchy conditions, and happend to be in good pressure AND favorable tack, you go with it as far as it would take you, not jibe/tack away. Even if it means staying slightly behind the guy you are trying to catch. Amateurish.
     
    #65
  16. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    :lol: You should tell them.

    The patch was dead when they arrived at Oracle - they're already fallen off their foils even - so they gybed away. It just happened to immediately go haywire - not to mention these boats need about 10 seconds plus to plan a gybe and can't just change their mind half way through it like boats that only go 15 knots.
     
    #66
  17. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Will it be decided in the courts? - it's now 8-6:



    But the whispers around the waterfront in San Francisco continue to swirl that Oracle could push for legal action if they are not eventually successful on the bay.

    That has always appeared a possibility after Oracle copped unprecedented penalties from the international jury in the wake of the cheating they were convicted of on the eve of their contest against the Kiwis. They lost two points and crucially their world-class wingsail trimmer, Dirk de Ridder, was banned from the final.

    Apart from arguing that the penalties, which also included a US$250,000 fine and bans on three other team members, were too severe they will point to the disruption it caused to their buildup in terms of boat development and preparation.

    And while Team New Zealand led 8-5 on the points table today, the reality is the results on the water have been 8-7.
     
    #67
  18. BlueB

    BlueB Hall of Fame

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    No I shouldn't :D They did what a hothead headcase skipper like me would.
     
    #68
  19. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Too many idiotic journalists fabricating stuff for attention.

    The protocol, which Oracle wrote, made the International Jury the highest body - unlike previous cups where the NY supreme court was. It says:

    To try and go back on that with regards to the guilty finding would put Oracle in the position where no-one would trust them again and it would also probably open the gates for the currently non-public interviews and evidence of the case to probably become public - stuff which the International Jury has clearly implied would be bad for Oracle. The avenues for doing so include claiming improper process or clear corruption. I think Oracle will have a hard time convincing the supreme court to hear the case and, even then, the only issue is the penalties. Looking at previous cases of cheating in one-design racing they are not remotely harsh.

    The penalties were not really unprecedented because of how harsh they were - they're not - but that there has never been such a comprehensive and repeated case of cheating in a one-design series.

    The International Jury said if it wasn't for it coming on the eve of the cup the punishments would have been much harsher. And remember, the fact that cheating occurred is not in dispute - Oracle has admitted it - it's who knew about it, who did it. In that respect Oracle got off very lightly because there was so little time before the regatta was due to begin to carry out further investigations. Oracle are just annoyed with the punishments which, other than the 2 point penalty, are about as severe as slapping someone with a wet fish. Their current trimmer may be young but had completed almost exactly the same amount of time on their boat at Dirk de Ridder.

    A previous case of cheating in a one design regatta saw the owners banned from all yachting competitions for a decade and the people who only heard about it but didn't dob them in copped one year bans.

    They cannot argue 250k fine is harsh. In the same regatta Luna Rossa were fined 100k for not sending enough team members to the launch party (true story). Oracle's budget is reportedly in the $200m region. $250k is probably less than their coffee bill for the cup cycle.

    Disruption to their build up outside of the sailing team is irrelevant. They have over 100 shore crew plus another 11 flown in after the first few races. NZ has 31. If Oracle lost 50 shore crew they would still have double that of any other competitor in the cycle.

    Oracle made their own bed when they wrote this protocol and only via the ongoing cries of hardship out of Oracle can anyone come up with the position they were hard done by. They have had twice the resources of their competitor and all of the home advantages imaginable so to hear skipper Jimmy Spithill crying hardship and adversity day after day is just crocodile tears aimed at the gullible.

    You'd struggle to find a worse case of all-round poor attitude outside of Oracle. From the repeated negative and derogatory public statements by the CEO, the crap-talking by their skipper, the fabricated accusations by their scumbag lawyer (Tom Ehman) to the repeated arm-twisting of the regatta director a few months ago (which took the International Jury to set him straight) they have conducted themselves relatively disgracefully by sporting standards - and most people who follow the cup recognise this. It's sad because Spithill is a mega talent and the vast majority of the team are no doubt people just going about their day jobs. Ben Ainslie is a legend and has been a breath of fresh air in their press conferences to show some respect for their competitors, their situation and the International Jury.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
    #69
  20. Vlad_C

    Vlad_C Semi-Pro

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    2 points to make at the end of the second race today:

    1. USA! USA!

    2. WTF just happened there?? Even the commentator was going "Did they just give them that?" "You've got to be kidding!"
     
    #70
  21. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Crazy. The one tack NZ did ahead of Oracle was slightly slow just as Oracle went nose down to get up on the foils for literally 10 seconds... *rolled!* I think they went a little early to be honest - by maybe a couple of boat lengths. Surprised they didn't hold as Oracle would have had to dip on that crossing.

    Oddly, after that point NZ seemed slower on all points on the remaining part of the upwind - despite generally being slightly quicker upwind. Was it a case of dreams dashed affecting the performance?

    Amazing that after 3 years and all this it'll come down to one race tomorrow. I believe NZ have port entry.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
    #71
  22. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    This event looks like a betting scandal waiting to unfold.
     
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  23. Midaso240

    Midaso240 Hall of Fame

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    I don't know much about yachting,but this is some crazy sh*t isn't it? Oracle 8-1 down and Team NZ squander 7 match points. This is a worse choke than Bill Tilden losing at Wimbledon from 6-2,6-4,5-1 up...
     
    #73
  24. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Although Oracle changed personnel, it's not usual for such a turnaround in a yacht race but these are catamarans and I don't know too much about them.
     
    #74
  25. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    I don't think the personnel thing is overly the biggest factor, they just finally got their boat moded right. Ben Ainslie no doubt has played a part but you always look like a tactical genius when you've got the faster boat. You're right though, big turnarounds in yachting are not uncommon - the ability to develop and spend money on the boat are virtually unlimited which is why America's Cup is a little like F1 in how farcical it can be.

    Because these are the first iteration of this class the learning curve has been much steeper than normal and both teams have continued to add little improvements during the races. Oracle has a massive manpower and resources advantage and has been able to make more inroads into getting the last bit of performance out of their boat after a slow start which probably complimented NZ's boat somewhat.
     
    #75
  26. Zildite

    Zildite Hall of Fame

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    Did Murray Deaker really say it would be nice to see Oracle capsize, lolgeez
     
    #76
  27. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Amazing win by Oracle and the end of another cup cycle.

    NZ sailed a tactically perfect first two legs to lead at mark 2 but upwind speed of Oracle has improved too much to keep them in check.

    Once Oracle got their control systems sorted they were flawless, their boat was more stable and easier to sail. I still am sceptical that their control system is legal as the rules said no stored energy or automatic systems allowed but they figured out a way to implement it in a manner which still complied with the rules.

    Another America's Cup cycle completed and another example of how having a much bigger budget eventually always results in the faster boat.

    Sad to think there'll be no more cup racing now. 2-3 more years!
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
    #77
  28. Midaso240

    Midaso240 Hall of Fame

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    Americans seem so proud of Team USA but there was only one American on the team...
     
    #78
  29. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    I just want to take this back..

    THAT WAS AWESOME
     
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  30. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    is it true that Ben Ainslie is actually LeeD?

    I think so!!
     
    #80
  31. BlueB

    BlueB Hall of Fame

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    One would think so, but I have to disappoint you. :D I have sailed world championships against Ben and seen him up close and personal...
     
    #81
  32. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    I was kidding, lol, I know a couple of the aussies myself..
     
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  33. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    Well did you see who won America's Got Talent? I guess we don't got talent...
     
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  34. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    LeeD has more than just a layman's knowledge of foils, both windsurf and kite applied.
    And seen the plans for Oahu's Superferry, and the local ferries that traverse SanFranciscoBay.
     
    #84
  35. BlueB

    BlueB Hall of Fame

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    Hey Lee, you are "young" enough that you might have seen these:
    [​IMG]
    35-40 years ago Yugoslavian and Russian navies had these hydrofoiling power boats. In the pic is the one from Yugoslav commercial fleet, pictured in the slow mode in the Split Harbour. Note the tug boats, still steam powered :D
     
    #85
  36. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Actually, in the mid '60's, when the Vietnam conflict was going at a rising rate, we knew about Russian HydroFoil attack PT boats, thru spy photos and whotnot.
    I was getting ready for the draft then, so was interested in all things that might affect my future.
    Figuring I might end up a grunt, and knowing Vietnam is laced with slow flowing rivers, I knew the hydrofoil in my future was a real possibility.
    But, seein as how our PT boats from WW11 went over 45 mph in smooth waters, the threat wasn't as real as chemicals, or biological weapons.
     
    #86
  37. dParis

    dParis Hall of Fame

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    This should be good. Can't wait. I don't plan on missing even a minute of the action!
     
    #87
  38. Dedans Penthouse

    Dedans Penthouse Hall of Fame

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    And, he speaks in the 3rd person.

    How do you introduce yourself to people?
     
    #88
  39. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    That's a mild slight, thanks.
    You guys were sniping at LeeD, so I thought I'd join in on the fun.
     
    #89

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