An Underhand Serve. How Underhanded.

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Apr 27, 2009.

  1. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I was playing practice doubles yesterday, in bright sun and huge heat.

    One of my opponents was a woman I know well and practice with frequently. She has a good serve. But I have "solved" her serve. I know where to stand (well behind baseline) and what to do, so she doesn't get the cheap points off of me that she does off of people without my inside knowledge. Similarly, she uses her inside knowledge on me to punish my serve. It's all good.

    So yesterday she is serving into the sun. She steps up to serve, announces the score clearly, and then serves underhand (!). I put on the afterburners and barely reach this ball before it bounces twice. I am lucky my back did not snap in two. I push it into the service box and we play out the point. Then she serves to my partner, a normal serve. Then she served to me -- another underhand serve. This time I was ready, and I got it back into play. The next time she served to me, she announced the score and I had my toes on the service line. She tossed in the air for her normal serve, so I backpedaled furiously and managed to be in position well enough to return the serve.

    Same thing, again and again for a very long service game. I didn't miss any returns.

    But I was kind of irked by this. I mean, I know it is within the rule. But there is something about that sort of thing that made steam come out of my ears. I mean, I'm thinking there was a reason Martina Hingis practically got stoned when she tried it.

    My friend explained that the sun was bothering her and she had been double-faulting a lot (we were rotating people among the various doubles pairs and singles players, so this was my first chance to play against her that day), so she figured she'd just serve underhand. She cheerfully said that she had done it with one of the older players who doesn't move well, and she wasn't able to scurry back and forth like I had.

    So. If we partner in a match and she starts doing this, should I say something?
     
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  2. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Actually it's a cool tactic to use if you can be sure that their serve is going to make someone run up and barely get to it so they have to pop it up for you.

    But if they do it every single time, that's a little much. (because nobody will be all that surprised and you'll get pounded)

    Usually if there is sun, I just change positions on the baseline or change my stance. It might seem uncomfortable but it cant be anymore out there then serving underhanded.
     
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  3. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    Serving underhand is fine. One of the women at my club went a whole season serving underhand at a high level. She had problems with her shoulder. She was probably a 5.5 with great volleys - she and her partner lost about two games over a whole season.
     
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  4. wao

    wao Professional

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    I would only say something in a match if the other team starts anticipating the serve and starts pounding the ball. You at the net are in a dangerious position as you could get alot of balls directed at you or to the open angle especially if your partner doesn't move that well. I would IMO if they did that ask if they would prefer if you played back in an effort to cover the court better. Playing in alot of sun in Az, I change my service position/toss to see the ball better.
     
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  5. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    I played in my club's 4.0 league last year and had pretty good success serving underhand every so often. I would use it against some of the older guys with leg/knee problems. Sometimes I felt kind of bad about it, but it won points, so whatever. We were all playing to win anyway.
     
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  6. cak

    cak Professional

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    Perhaps, "You go girl!!!"

    I don't see how it's any cheaper than spin, lob or dink shots. All of which are part of the game. Now if it's not working it would be the same situation as a partner that keeps lobbing short, or dinking a bit too deep. At which point I might point out that as a strategy, it's not working well today.
     
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  7. imalil2gangsta4u

    imalil2gangsta4u Hall of Fame

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    LOL. That as pretty funny cak.

    I would never use an underhand serve myself, but its not against the rules and you shouldnt get mad when someone does it. Just always be ready.
     
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  8. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Tennis is a "zero-sum game". You can't both win. There's only one winning person (or one winning team). If you didn't like it, that means it's a good shot for her to try. Couldn't someone also say that they don't like a serve that has too much power? The point of tennis isn't to hit shots to you that you like, it is to hit shots you don't like. If you want people to hit shots to you that you like, then give up competition and just rally. Some people are happier that way.
     
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  9. Danstevens

    Danstevens Semi-Pro

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    I agree, the point of the underhand serve is deception. When you do it all the time, you lose that important element of it and it generally gets punished.
     
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  10. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I'm surprised that underhand serves aren't universally viewed as the tools of small children and wusses.

    I have only had one other person serve underhand to me. It was a mixed match. This guy was a 4.0, and we were beating him. He was serving fine. So he hits this underhand serve to me. I ran over and pushed it back. And the first thing I thought was, "Man, what a *tool.*" He then tried it later in the match and actually missed it wide, and I thought "Man, what an incompetent *tool.*"

    I then played him again this year, so I warned my partner about his Tool-ish tendencies. Again, we were beating him. This time, he never tried serving underhand. I wonder why?

    So, has anyone here served underhand when they didn't have a physical reason to do so? Man, I don't care if I am match point down and I know an underhand serve would win the point. I'm not doing it.

    Well, I'm off to play this lady in singles. I'll let you know if she serves underhand . . . .
     
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  11. slick

    slick Rookie

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    You seem to have a lot of issues regarding any strategy which is out of the ordinary and frequently use the term "noob" and "tool".

    An underhand serve is completely legit. I play a #1 single player for a local college who is a 5.0 and he has a huga serve which I stand to return near the fence and can get it back most of the time. To bring me in he either serves and volleys or throws me a suprise underhand serve which is frequently an ace and I'm fast. I don't get mad at all. It's a great shot and very smart. You are obviously playing deep to get her serve back so she is making you play closer, out of your comfort zone. That's good tactics and smart tennis. If you can't handle that you are playing the wrong game.

    A good local high school player had shoulder surgery and was not allowed to serve overhead. He hit a wicked side spin underhand serve for his whole season last year and won almost every match. He now serves overhead again but still throws in the underhand serve frequently and usually wins the point.

    Finally, ever hear of a guy named Michael Chang. I seem to recall him winning a huge match against another guy named Ivan Lendle on the way to winning the French Open with, a "noob" "tool" underhand serve.

    Stop whining all the time and just play.
     
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  12. innoVAShaun

    innoVAShaun Hall of Fame

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    I admit, it does go beyond tennis principles. There's a huge difference between winning, and winning ugly.

    I remember doing it at state districts. I have a pretty good serve, but for some reason I could not put my serve in on the ad-court. All day long, DFs on the ad-side. Finally, my partner looked at me in frustration and said "Whatever it takes, just put it in!" I dinked a few serves in we got crushed. So I decided to underhand serve it in. My opponent yelled "Bush League!" and quickly netted the ball. I told him I'd rather hit that than double fault. I was able to hold serves a few times more ever since. Was I wrong? We did end up winning that match in a 3rd set tie-break.

    After that, I could hear all the teams around us talking about "He's the one that underhand serves." I didn't give a damn. I'd rather laugh and chuckle it off than get frustrated at myself for all the DFs.
     
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  13. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Ya if your opponent gets frustrated about something that is completely legal, then that is his problem, dont worry about it.

    It's stupid how sometimes people act like this whenever something comes up that THEY (from their own limited perspective) rarely see.
     
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  14. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    Your commentary is the essential equivalent of the whining about "pushers" that the noobs complain about all the time. That is you (and they) have a preconceived notion of what "correct" or "superior" play is and anything that falls outside of this boundry is worth complaining about.

    As long as a shot or strategy is not illegal it should be judged by it's results only. If it wins points it is a superior shot/strategy, if it doesn't it is a poor one. End of story.

    As to not personally using a shot that will win you match point... why are you participating in matchplay again?
     
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  15. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    Ok, let's keep it civil here. I don't think Cindy is whining, she just views the underhanded serve as some kind of cheap shot.

    If it's within the rules though, and wins points; there's no reason not to do it. Other than getting angry with Cindy, I agree with everything you said.
     
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  16. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Cindy, since I know you're an advocate of The Code maybe you should consider this. I recall a section of The Code where he says that a player shouldn't complain about his opponents shot selection, i.e. "too many lobs", etc. He says, "As long as they are legal shots, it is his opponents choice.

    Doesn't the underhand serve fall under this category? It's a legal serve, so if that's what she wants to do, then we have no right to complain.
     
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  17. slick

    slick Rookie

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    I've seen many of her posts on this forum. She is pretty free with the insults calling others "noobs", "tools" and the like. She is usually completely off base in these comments and I'm just calling her out on it. I suppose she might think Fabrice Santoro is a tool because he hits unusual shots? There are a lot of winning styles in tennis especially at the club level, playing in an unorthodox manner does not make one a tool.
     
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  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I would be offended if someone served underhanded to me. It kind of implies that I am not good enough to face real serves.
     
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  19. jrod

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  20. magmasilk

    magmasilk New User

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    I think the reason people/pros don't like underhanded serves is that they interprete it as some sort of insult. they are reading between the lines; interpreting intent. and hingis at the time i can see trying to be insulting or annoying. however, there is nothing inherently insulting about a drop shot, underhanded serve, or moonball ... especially if it is consistently effective.
     
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  21. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I have no issue with an opponent serving an underhand serve to me. To me, it's no different than an opponent hitting a dinky shot during a rally. In either case, it's not a good shot on their part, but it puts the onus on me to make them pay for it. If I punish them for it, they will stop doing it (or continue to be punished). But if I'm unable to take advantage of it, then it's my bad, not theirs.
     
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  22. Casey10s

    Casey10s Rookie

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    Cindy,

    One of these reasons she may have serve underhanded is that she knew this would bother you. Part of playing winning tennis is to figure out what the other person does not like and exploit it. Some people I know will drop shot consistently until you cover the shot and hit it back offensively. After that, you may not see another drop shot.

    Since you stated that you have figured out how to return her serve, she may have realized that too.

    I wouldn't say anything to anybody about their shot selection except to complement them. If it is a legal shot, they have the right to hit it whenever they see fit.
     
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  23. Kostas

    Kostas Semi-Pro

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    One of the biggest serve's in my area was in a 3.5 singles tourney here recently. He has a 4.0+ serve but not very strong on the rest of his game.

    He was in the 1st round in a super-tiebreak and was serving 3-6. He underhand served his opp. twice and won the next 7 points for a 10-6 win.

    He won the tournament.
     
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  24. RoddickAce

    RoddickAce Hall of Fame

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    Well a lot of people do think so (it also looks very uncool imo), but if the returner can't handle it, why waste effort serving an overhead serve and not winning the point? This is like pushing with 30 cm long strokes, sure, it doesn't look cool and it's no fun, but they'd rather win matches over developing full strokes...and it works.
     
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  25. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Ya your probably right about that.

    It's been nice over the past few months to not have to constantly read about posts which mostly seem to just center about whether or not we should stick our noses down at someone for doing something (not whether they played fairly or were a good sport or are good players).

    Keep in mind though that any argument you generate to the contrary is going to go unlistened to anyway, so dont take it too personally. There's no real need to call out something that's obvious anyway....
     
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  26. randomname

    randomname Professional

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    thats right, dont you dare let anyone on a message board get away with having opinions!
     
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  27. slick

    slick Rookie

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    Yup. Opions about how everyone who doesn't play in just the right way is irritating, unsportsmanlike, noobish, a geek, uncool ...etc..etc. Yeah, she's entitled to those opinions. Just glad I don't have to play with her, not that I would anyways.
     
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  28. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    She calls other people noobs and tools? I haven't come across this.
     
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  29. randomname

    randomname Professional

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    I just love the fact that people have called Djokovic one of the biggest cheaters to ever play the game for using something perfectly within the rules (medical timeouts), yet Cindy is some kind of idiot for thinking that an underhand serve is bush league.
     
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  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Seems to be a forced comparison of two very different things said by very different people at very different points in time
     
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  31. randomname

    randomname Professional

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    its a legitimate comparison, and both reactions seem to be almost universal
     
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  32. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Well, I agree with you regarding the Cindy-bashing in this thread - there's simply no need for that.

    But I disagree with your analogy.

    The rules of tennis define a serve in terms of how it is used to start the point, and where it must land. But there is no mention regarding the stroke that must be used to perform the serve, just as there is no mention of the strokes to be used for any other shot. There's nothing implied either.

    But with medical timeouts, they are explicitly intended to be used when a player experiences an injury. So if a player uses one when in fact there isn't really a legitimate injury, then I would consider that cheating. As for whether this is the case with Djokovic, I really don't know.
     
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  33. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Let me see if I can help here.

    First, the rules and Code tell us how the game *can* be played.

    Beyond that, the rules and Code do not tell us what is cool and uncool.

    On this board, opinions on what is cool -- what is gamesmanship, what is unsporting, what is Seriously Lame Behavior -- differ widely.

    One one end of the spectrum, there are some who say they will do anything to win a point or a match.

    On the other end of the spectrum are those who say there are some things they simply will not do even if the rules allow it. We have had a few recent examples of this in just the past few days. One TT member won't overrule his partner on a line call because politeness to his partner trumps the Code. Someone else won't hit at the woman at net in mixed. Some won't headhunt. Most of us won't nail someone in the back (or even the front) with an overhead. Even though all of these things are obviusly well within the rules and Code. So IMHO "The rules and Code allow it" is not the end of the discussion.

    So. Do the rules allow underhand serving? Of course. Am I entitled to think people who serve underhand are being unsporting? Yes. Can I say it right out loud on an internet discussion board? Yup. Can people disagree? Of course. The Code suggests I can't complain to my opponent about an underhand serve. I darn sure can conclude they are a Tool, however, if that's how I feel about it.

    That said, I think comparing an underhand serve to a lob/drop shot ignores the fact that that the two things are treated quite differently by most everyone who watches or plays tennis. If Safin executes a winning drop shot or lob against Nadal, this is the stuff of instant replay and we applaud his strategy, courage and touch. If Hingis executes a perfect underhand serve when she is perfectly capable of serving overhand, she gets a round of boos. If Michael Chang executes a perfect underhand serve against Lendal, it is the stuff of legend. And when my 4.0 mixed opponent serves underhand to a 3.5 woman with my lame service return, it draws some derisive snickers from his two opponents.

    Serve underhand if you want. Me, I won't join you. I think it is Not Cool unless you are impaired.

    And those of you engaging in personal attacks on other TT members? I think I will set a proper example and ignore that nonsense.
     
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  34. shell

    shell Professional

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    To answer your question, no you should not say anything. I think you summarized the reason in your latest post. It is not against the rules, and each person may decide for themselves in what they think about it (including this lady, who obviously thinks it is fine).

    I've done it before for the same reason it sounds like your teammate did - could not get my toss out of the sun on the ad side, no matter how I tried. With all of those difficulties and frustrations, I would NOT want to hear comments from my partner about the "uncoolness" of an underhand serve.
     
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  35. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    It's one thing to say that YOU wont do something. That's your choice and anyone can respect that.

    It's another thing to have a whole discussion about how we should look down on someone else because they dont agree with you. (calling them a noob or a uncool, or nasty, or ewwy, or whatever......)

    That's where people get caught up into these little petty arguments.

    Which is what they are, just accept that not everyone agrees with everyone, there is no need to sit and discuss it, especially if you are going to use words like 'noob' and 'tool'.

    I know a lot of people who feel the same way that you do about serving underhand (they wont do it), and that's fine.

    But if they were to go on and disparage someone else for doing it or complain about it, that's another matter entirely because that's disrespectful of someone else's opinion.
     
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  36. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Well, I do look down on people who serve underhanded and who hit other people on purpose.
     
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  37. shell

    shell Professional

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    Would you serve underhand if you truely thought you were going to DF match point away, and had DFs in that same game due to sun?
     
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  38. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Agreed that there are things that are legal but that we frown upon as "uncool".

    Cindy gave some good examples - deliberately nailing your opponent with an overhead, or gunning for the woman at the next in mixed.

    The commonality in these two examples is that they at best they are intended to intimidate, and at worst can cause serious injury.

    So, they are decidedly uncool.

    Underhand serving on the other hand poses no threat to anyone. Actually, the only person who is negatively impacted is the person doing it!

    So I proclaim it completely cool, and in fact, hereby invite and encourage all my opponents to attempt it against me :)
     
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  39. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No. If I do it once, I will end up doing it often. I play to improve my level. Like I will not hit too many IO FHs, but will use my BH. That is how I improved my BH while the others I play with did everything possible to avoid hitting a BH, and as a result they suck now.
     
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  40. shell

    shell Professional

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    Yeah, I see your reasoning. I was just trying to find the point, if there was one, where the "I would never do it" folks would consider doing it. Personally, I would do most anything to not hit an underhand serve - because I suck at it. But there does come a point...:)
     
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  41. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    So let get this straight:

    A has a great serve

    B knows this so stands well back from the baseline to compensate for it

    A notes B standing well back (negating her weapon) and decides to underhand serve to compensate for the compensation

    B wonders if she "should say something" next time. Say something like what?
     
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  42. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    You guys need to lighten up - drop shots, lobs, underhand serves are all fun shots to hit. There is nothing wrong with throwing a change up out there..

    I can't say I hit underhand serves often but I'd consider if I was playing at just the wrong time with regards to the sun.
     
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  43. jrod

    jrod Hall of Fame

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    Never say never? Everyone has their price...
     
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  44. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I will throw in an underhand serve if the money is right
     
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  45. jrod

    jrod Hall of Fame

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    Q.E.D.......
     
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  46. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    Cindy, when you say it is uncool, do you mean that you are frustrated by it, or that you think someone should not be allowed to serve underhanded?

    I don't think many will agree with you in thinking that it's unsportsmanlike. I don't see how it would be considered unsporting. It's simply another, legal way of hitting a certain shot.

    Also, it's usually going to be much easier to return than a normal serve. I would love it if someone served an entire match underhand. That would be like getting free points. Though if someone mixes it in every once in awhile to great effect, good on them. It's just like hitting a slice or drop shot. Just a way to change up the pace and keep your opponent guessing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2009
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  47. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/a/serveundsidevid.htm

    A quote from this site:

    "The underhand sidepsin serve should be used sparingly to prevent your opponent from getting used to it. Some opponents might consider this serve a "trick" and scorn your use of it, but it's a perfectly ethical and legal serve that preserves an element of pure finesse in a serving universe that's dominated by power. The underhand sidespin is as much fun to try to return as it is to hit."
     
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  48. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    #48
  49. Casey10s

    Casey10s Rookie

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    I was watching a Level II National Tournament a few years ago. In the 60 and over division, Jimmy Parker was playing. He has over 20 gold balls (a gold ball is winning a national tournament). About once every other service game, he would hit an under handed serve. Of the times he hit it, he probably got a no return 9 out of 10 times. The one time that the person got it back, it was a floater that he came in and hit a winner. Nobody who was watching thought it was unsportsmanlike. Most of them were amazed how well he could hit it. Here is a nationally ranked player (Top 5 nationally in his age bracket) that uses it as part of his arsenal and it is accepted by his peers. Why should anyone complain when the top players in the country see no problem with it.
     
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  50. tfm1973

    tfm1973 Semi-Pro

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    cindy -- i've played with and against you more than a few times and i'm kinda surprised at how much you dislike the underhand serve. and i'm more surprised that you categorize some shots as "cool" vs "uncool".

    my philosophy might be different than yours but i learned a long time ago that each point in tennis is worth a single point no matter how you win it. doesn't matter if you hit a 120 mph ace or a 12 mph underhand serve. it's only a single point.

    plus when it comes to shots in tennis you don't like to face, the best way to make an opponent stop a strategy is to beat it soundly and decisively. so for example if you don't like drop shots -- the very first drop shot you face -- you run your tushy as fast as mother fudging possible and get to that drop shot and put it away. the same goes for underhand serves. you see one and you run up there and crush it. heck crush it at your opponents partner (their right hip technically). ppl tend to stop hitting shots that aren't working. "hmm that didn't work. let me try something different."

    i've underhand served you before in practice matches. i stopped because you got to each one. i have also hit a lot of twist serves to you. i didn't stop because you didn't get many of those back. lather rinse repeat. tennis isn't especially complicated.
     
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