AndreD serve, help please :P rate the serve if you dont mind

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Andre D, Mar 27, 2011.

  1. Andre D

    Andre D Rookie

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    Hey its me again, due to weather conditions and disponibility i havent made a video of me playing yet, however i got some time today to throw some serves

    They havent been any good lately, but if you could tell me what i am doing wrong or what should i do i would appreciate it, and if you can estimate the serve speed...
    Anyway, I am aware that i am falling to the right side when serving, i dont know why and how to avoid/ change it..it keeps happening time after time after time...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwrrRq2dWf4
     
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  2. Ajtat411

    Ajtat411 Semi-Pro

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    Andre, you have a natural/easy motion that has potential.

    It looks like you said that you tend to finish to the right. It could have something to do with your toss location. It seems that balls that are tossed a little too far right gives you this balance issue. You want to toss the ball out in front of the baseline also so you extend that power up and into the court for more ball speed.

    If your contact point is too far right and behind you, it will make you off balance.
     
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  3. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    Maybe toss the serve a bit more into the court? I noticed that you seem to get little-to-no air. So you aren't really jumping into the ball. Tossing into the court really helped me. I'm a bigger guy (5'10" 205lbs) and it still forced me to launch/jump upwards and into the ball. It also helped me whip my arm better -- almost like I was swatting a fly that was trying to run away from me.
     
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  4. Andre D

    Andre D Rookie

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    what about ratings, can anyone rate the serve?
     
    #4
  5. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    about a 4.5 woman serve.
     
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  6. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    I'd rate it as highly returnable.
     
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  7. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    3.5 rating on that serve. 2-3 bounces before hitting the backstop.

    You have a decent starting motion, but you aren't "springing" yourself into your serve. Toss the ball in front of you and really jump into it, you're losing all your pace and the result is a weak sitter.
     
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  8. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Hi Andre.

    You have a nice basic serve motion. It's smooth without any extraneous hitches or weirdness. It's definitely a motion that you can build on.

    The falling to the right is taking away some pace. As your body falls to the right your racquet will tend to go to the left instead of through the ball. I've experienced this myself. One thing that's helped me is working on my balance as I toss and bend my knees. When I lose my balance it usually happens as I'm bending my knees. I'm tracking the ball upward with my eyes as it leaves my hand and I keep leaning back more and more as the ball rises. By the time I'm at the bottom of my knee bend I'm slightly off balance falling backwards, which would be to my left if you were looking behind me (I'm right handed). Then, when I push up toward the ball my body goes out toward the left and my racquet to the right. The result is that I'm not driving the racquet into the ball. I can see the ball slice as it lands across the net even though I was trying to hit it flat.

    What's helped is to practice the swing without actually tossing a ball. I do all the motions and visualize the ball. It's usually a lot easier to get a nice feeling, powerful swing. I watch the spot where my raquet would hit my pretend ball. That's basically the spot I want to toss to (see below for more).

    Then I practice visualizing and tossing the ball to that spot. As other have mentioned that spot will probably be more in front of you then you are currently tossing.

    The hard part is putting the two together. Go back and forth between the separate motions and all together.

    The other thing about the height of the toss and balance is to make sure you're tossing the ball high enough so that you can finish your preparation before you start your swing at the ball. Generally you want to hit the ball around the top of the toss, but really most people actually hit it on the way down. The amount extra that you toss the ball has a big effect on the whole timing of your serve. You want the toss to be high enough that you have enough time to get your knees bent and the racquet into the "trophy pose" position. If your toss is too low you will find you will be rushing this whole process, or not getting properly prepared at all, before you start your swing toward the ball. This can throw off your balance in a big way.

    Err on the side of tossing a bit too high and really get set up to explode through the ball.

    Regarding preparation, I don't think you're bending your knees enough. As someone else said you're not really exploding up to the ball and getting both feet off of the ground. But again if your toss is too low you won't have time to do that.

    As far as rating your serve, I'd say don't worry about it. Just try to improve your motion and your efficiency. You seem like you're good enough to tell whether you're really getting your body into the ball. When you're hitting well you can get a lot of power without a lot of effort.

    Good luck.

    Rich


     
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  9. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Yeah, most guys hit the nail on the head.
    Toss to far right, and not only do you fall right, but your pivot foot, the right, takes a small step and absorbs what weight transfer you have.
    Serve is barely stuff of 80, at the very best.
    I don't think you are trying to swing fast at all. You certainly don't jump, don't move into the court, and don't prep to explode in one quick movement.
    Very smooth motion, which is nice, now some effort.
    Not one serve hit the backboard on one bounce. Even dead balls it on one bounce with 100mph serves.
    You add a component of side/top to every serve, and that takes away speed and for you, bounce. If you added more topspin, even 80 mph serves would hit the backboard after initial bounce.
     
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  10. Andre D

    Andre D Rookie

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    the backboard was insanely behind the service line that wasnt a regular court, was a practice court, only has singles line, but it has the exact measures, and my serve has diferent speeds, depends on the day, i dont know.
    as for topspin i dont really know how i will add it, ive been practicing serves on the base of pro serves, fyb and what my coaches say, i understand how to brush the ball but its harder in practice than theory. when u say 80, are you talking mph or kph?
     
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  11. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    Andre,

    You seem like a fine young man who is really looking to improve.

    I will help you, and I honestly can, but understandably, you MUST do as I say. Otherwise, this won't work.

    I know this sounds "bold," and it is, but give it a try and see how it works out.

    OK?

    Your motion looks fine, but you are doing many things which I would change. I know, must be tough to deal with that statement.

    The first thing is your "loop" wind-up. You take your racquet down and loop towards the back fence. Yea, yea, I know we see this, but it's "old school."

    I want you to stop this immediately. Never do it agan.

    Here's what I would like to see you do. And it's easy!

    Bring both arms up at the same time, however, the racquet arm can be bent at the elbow, and it should bend naturally. Just make sure you keep the racquet pointing towards the ski.

    Also, keep hoth hands as close as you can before this. Don't place the ball hand up the racquet.

    See if you can make this simple adjustment?

    Practice this without tossing or hitting a ball. Also, don't carry this excersise farther than this. Just keep repeating it till you are comfortable.

    When your ready, show the video of you doing this.

    It would be interesting to see if "on line" instruction could actually benefit a player, as far as the changes needed to improve.

    JS #1
     
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  12. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    There are a large number of flaws, but you simply need to make your motion more efficient. The components are there, but only in pieces. Prime example:

    [​IMG]

    One part of this image is excellent, two parts are not. The first bad part is that your racquet is too far outside of the natural swing path of the racquet. If you were to keep that toss out in front of you, by the time you get there, you will not have that ~110deg angle between your arm and abdomen. You also compound this with having another angle between your arm and racquet. This results in you arming the serve too much because you cannot pronate through with your body in this sort of position. This would not be an issue if the ball was out in front more and you had rotated your shoulders fully through such that you are facing where you are serving. That's key.

    The second issue is that your leg bend has done nothing to help you here. Your lead foot is still on the ground, and at this point, you should be in the air naturally without having to jump. Get more loading of your legs, and you can take care of that.

    Now, onto the good, and quite frankly one of the most difficult things for players to achieve. You are at maximum extension and have fully cartwheeled your shoulders. Your right shoulder started up in the beginning, now your right shoulder is very far down. This is excellent form. If you could bring the racquet over to get rid of what I mentioned above, you would have full extension and a linear swing path allowing you to put all of your energy into racquet head speed. As an example, here is a picture of myself doing exactly what I am mentioning above along with a pic I took of Federer this past summer:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Note the angles between the racquet and arm, and the arm and torso.

    I hope that this helps :)
     
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  13. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    PVaudio,

    Your serve still needs work.

    JS #1
     
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  14. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    You're point? I can draw a relative straight line from the tip of his racquet to his left foot. That's the point he was trying to make (I believe).
     
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  15. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    I wasn't going to reply to this because I know how fast "things" can get out of hand, especially when each individual believes their advice is the best. And they should, nothing wrong with that.

    However, Mr. Andre has other issues that need improvement that should be addressed first, which I covered in my reply.

    I'm not asking others to "back off" and allow my critiquing only. What I'm hoping for, is that Andre can "pick and choose" information that he, or his parents, believe is the more useful, which is presented in a way, as to improve other areas in a lesson format.

    That is,

    Step 1, step 2, and so on.

    Sure, it would be nice if "others" would just "hang back" and see what I can do with Mr. Andre's request. Be nice for Mr. Andre also.

    But that ain't gonna happen.

    I've seen many players, NOT advance to better levels, because of poor instruction.

    I'm going to stick my neck out again. Give the kid a break!

    I can honestly help him.

    PVaudio also.

    JS #1
     
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  16. upbeat

    upbeat New User

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    Jake Speed,

    I think that the problem is just saying "your serve needs work". It comes off a bit arrogant. Maybe if you had explained what you see in the picture that could use some improving it would be different.

    I have no reason to doubt your tennis knowledge, and have no clue of your credentials (you could be Paul Annacone for all I know).
     
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  17. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    That MAY be the case, but how do YOU know what steps he should take in what order? Only Andre D's experiences will be able to prove this.

    You come off as saying that people can't critique other's serves unless their serves are perfect ('Your serve still needs work'). If that's what you mean, Nick Bollettieri shouldn't be coaching at all. If that's not what you mean, learn to convey/say what you actually mean or don't say anything at all.
     
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  18. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    Gee,

    This reply was directed to Mr. PVaudio and him only. Are you aware of that?

    With all due respect.

    Loosen up guys, I'm not talking about YOUR serve and YOU didn't ask for help.

    I'm not asking that my methods be questioned, and I explained myself quite clearly to Mr. Andre. I invited his parents because this is serious stuff, and don't think it isn't. Improvements don't come easy.

    Let's see what Mr. Andre has to say about replies before you have your "witch hunt."

    I was hopping for no replies at all. I also made THAT clear, but said it wouldn't happen. Wishful thinking to benefit Mr. Andre.

    Please, gentleman, go back and read my offerings again.

    Sit back, give me a chance with Mr. Andre, if he will allow it, then comment on his progress.

    Useful comments.

    JS #1
     
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  19. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Thank you for stating the obvious. It's not like there is a massive thread on it. Idiot.
    Yes, this was my point. Thank you.
     
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  20. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    PVaudio,

    With all due respect and kindness.

    I know what you're mad at and I understand it fully. Trust me, I know.

    The "idiot" thing, that's easy, you're forgiven.

    "The massive thread." Your asking for help? Let's talk about that.

    Not massive? Well, 279 Posts, 10,151 views. Started well before 3-29-2010 and the last Post, was mine, 02-24-2011.

    You never responded? 279 comments, with no improvement, and you never responded.

    Look,

    I spent hours reading the text and viewing your videos.

    Your efforts, perseverance and some frustration, almost brought a tear to my eye. I kept thinking "I wish this kid lived near by."

    If you want to "dial back," no apologies necessaries for calling me an "idiot."

    Ask for help with your serve, "That we both agree on, needs work," I'll give it to you. We can do this privately with an exchange of e-mails.

    I can do magic with tennis instruction.

    Your call,

    JS #1
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2011
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  21. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    As I said in my own thread, either reveal who you are, or please stop making grandiose claims that you can do "magic with tennis instruction". You've made very bold assertions without anyone knowing if you're a 13 year old troll, or Pete Sampras. So please: your credentials?
     
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  22. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Quoted for Truth.
     
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  23. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Jake, it's clear you have some good things to say. But like me, the way you say it comes off as too blunt at times, often unnecessary. Remind me why Pvaudio needed to be reminded that his serve isn't perfect? I've heard him say that hundreds of times. Then some random dude makes a point of saying it in a thread unrelated to his serve.

    You're in for some trouble if you just go around spouting off whatever comes into your head in random directions.
     
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  24. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Turns out he's not going to reveal who he is. So AndreD, please do be careful when taking his advice. He could be 100% legitimate, but there have been people on here giving out great claims only to end up being some 14 year old who has never coached anyone in his life.
     
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  25. Andre D

    Andre D Rookie

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    PVaudio, thanks for your critics, its not wrong, i ve spotted these errors myself, and i knew that i should bend me knees much more and toss the ball correctly, in my opinion these are the hardest parts to do, however I was not aware at those explanations you gave me so I apreciate it.

    As for jake, I dont doubt you are right, andy roddick is a great server and do what you said, If i got it what you said correctly(im not english or american).

    I always check what people say to me through-out the web all on websites and with friends and coaches even books, I dont know if ill do what you say yet, i take tennis as the most serious matter in my life, its what cheers me up when im feeling down, its what i love to do the most, its a pity that I only started 2 years ago so i must be carefull not to learn anything wrong. Ill get back at you later if you dont mind
     
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  26. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    Mr. Andre,

    Thanks for those kind words.

    Real quick. Forget that late start and those two years. Means nothing. Do things right and you'll catch up fast!

    I'll leave you with this.

    Unfortunately, there ARE immediate changes/corrections you have to make. If you don't make them now, it will be more difficult to make these changes later. Consider the loss of valuable time?

    Doing incorrect things for long periods of time, can make the changing, of something that could be easy, much more difficult, and, in some cases, almost impossible; not to forget the possibility of unnecessary injury.

    In all honesty, and it's unfortunate, I see no way of helping you on line. I would have to "insist" that you took direction from just myself. The only way it would have to be.

    With this said, I hope you find instruction talent worthy of your abilities.

    JS #1
     
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  27. Andre D

    Andre D Rookie

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    i accept your proposal
     
    #27
  28. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    Mr. Andre,

    Are you addressing Jake Speed? You're not quite clear with this.

    JS #1
     
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  29. Andre D

    Andre D Rookie

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    yes
    10char
     
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  30. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    Mr. Andre,

    Thank you for having me on board.

    Couple of things.

    Keep all your videos for review and in order. These videos will document your improvement, and viewing the "before" and "after" will be interesting AND could offer help to others.

    Please review my original reply, you can start with this. if you have questions about the "technique" of which I'm asking, let me know.

    Unfortunately and certainly, you will continue to practice your "full serve," however, It would be better if you would stop doing this totally, at least for a short time. You could do "everything" except the hitting of the ball.

    This would allow you to learn the new technique, with little effort, of which I will be asking of you.

    Just a series of simple tasks and acquired knowledge, which will allow you to develop your new service motion, and for you to have confidence in it!

    You don't have to hit a ball to do this.

    How tall are you and what is your age?

    Now please do as requested and Post the new video.

    Go for it!

    JS #1
     
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  31. krz

    krz Professional

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    man if I had magically tennis coaching abilities I'd charge people for it or something.
     
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  32. Andre D

    Andre D Rookie

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    ok 180cm 17 years old
     
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  33. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    5' 10" Tall?

    Is that how that works out?

    JS #1
     
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  34. Ajtat411

    Ajtat411 Semi-Pro

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    ^Pretty close. It's about 5' 10.9" my converter says.
     
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  35. Andre D

    Andre D Rookie

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    my converter says -5.90551181 feet
    ive been practicing the motion, looks pretty solid, might post it tomorrow
     
    #35
  36. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    Mr. Andre,

    OK, glad to hear that, solid is a good word but I like "feels natural," better.

    JS #1
     
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  37. Ajtat411

    Ajtat411 Semi-Pro

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    0.9055' = 10.9", We have to be special 1'= 12" in the US. Almost 6' tall. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
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  38. precision2b

    precision2b Semi-Pro

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    Why did Jake Speed get Banned??? anyone know??? :confused:
     
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  39. Kunohara

    Kunohara Professional

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    Maybe he was a tool ?
     
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  40. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    There ya go.
     
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  41. gahaha

    gahaha Rookie

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    From the collective votes, and reports from this community. It was only a matter of time..

    @AndreD, I agree with a lot of other posters, focus on where you're landing after the serve, you should be more inside the baseline. I don't know the exact speed, but if you can get your serve to bounce once and hit the back board or fence, then its a good enough serve for games.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2011
    #41
  42. Jake Speed

    Jake Speed Banned

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    Andre D,

    I m back on Post!

    If you still want "serious" help, I see you can still use it,

    just Post that Video, of what I asked, and we can move forward.

    Don't forget, this is still "your" thread.

    JS #1

    Back, and better than ever!
     
    #42

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