Annoying

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by michael_1265, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. RetroSpin

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    I get what you are saying but I think it leads to a slippery slope. You can point to an infinitely long list of things that could cause extra health care costs, from poor diet to speeding to promiscuity, etc etc. In fairness, the connection to smoking is more direct than most. In fact, some private insurance companies do charge extra for smokers. I'm just troubled by the government using this agument to get even more control over our lives.
     
    #51
  2. Overdrive

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    Was this at a public tennis court or a private club?

    If it was at a public court, the smoker has a right to do so (it can be a nuisance to others but it is legal in most areas). If the smoker was at a court provided by the club itself, he/she would have to abide by the policy of the facility.

    How can people see in shades of gray here?
     
    #52
  3. Overdrive

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    Woah, you're chasing rabbits here..
     
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  4. OrangePower

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    I may have mentioned previously... I am personally in favor of limited government, so no argument from me about not wanting government control over our lives. But the flip side that comes with personal responsibility is that we should then not expect government to provide all these services for us.

    I guess my argument is that we have the following logical choices as a society:

    - Promote collective government services such as healthcare, but recognize that in so doing we cede some personal freedoms, because then government has legitimate justification to control things such as smoking that add substantially to the cost of providing healthcare.

    - Reject such government services and then allow every person the freedom to do whatever they want as long as it is not negatively impacting other people.

    Unfortunately the combination of personal freedom to do harm to oneself plus then the expectation that government will help take care of people when the poop hits the fan is not an economically sound policy.
     
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  5. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

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    I don't think this argument is new or even related to health care.

    The same thing can be said for all government spending. Like you, I don't want to pay for a smoker's health care but frankly I don't want to spend for defense, public schools, and a lot of other things. Unfortunately I don't get the choice in these matters. The fact the government chooses to pay for these things does not mean we as a people should give up our freedom and live according to the government (or your) system of behavior.

    I have had this argument many times with people and the funny aspect is almost everyone with this view want to protect their own "unhealthy" behavior while taking away others.

    My guess is a tax on tennis players due to increased joint injuries would not be a popular idea on this forum.
     
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  6. Velvet Ga el

    Velvet Ga el Rookie

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    Holy crap, no. That's not legally correct in California, nor anywhere else in the continental United States. Thank God.
     
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  7. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Then you would be wrong.

    http://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040823/smoking-worse-than-exhaust-for-air-pollution

    I've got your back, Topaz!

    *********************

    Smoking Worse Than Exhaust for Air Pollution
    Italian Tests Show Cigarettes Emit 10 Times More Particulate Matter

     
    #57
  8. OrangePower

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    Exactly - I think you must be a closet Libertarian like I am :)

    Except that I do believe in paying for public schools, because an educated population benefits us all as a society, not just those individuals receiving the education.

    In my ideal society there would be no concept of behavior being 'protected' or 'unprotected'; as long as the behavior does not hurt others, we should not restrict it. But that assumes that each person is then responsible for dealing with the fallout of any choices they make.

    If my private health insurance wants to charge me an extra premium to cover potential joint damage resulting from my choice to play tennis, then I'm ok with it. But I would expect that it would be more than offset by a discount because tennis keeps me relatively in shape and not overweight.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
    #58
  9. asimple

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    I wouldn't go to say I am a full libertarian but pretty close. I don't mind the government doing limited things but I do have issues with them stopping people from behavior that doesn't effect others directly. I don't like the indirect argument as it can be stretched to any behavior.

    I don't know that this is true from a cost perspective. I'm almost certain I will end up getting my knees replaced at some point in time and the way my hip is starting to feel I wouldn't be surprised if this was on the list later in life. In addition to this, I have had a knee surgery and come close to both an ankle and shoulder injury and had about 10 MRIs over the years. My case seems to be similar to the other 40+ guys I play with and I am embarrassed even discussing my minor aches with what I hear from the 50+ guys.
     
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  10. OrangePower

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    Wow, you're a wreck - sorry dude :)

    I also play with a bunch of guys around my age... I'm mid 40's, most of the guys are 40-55 range. Most of us are free of major issues, at least so far. In the group of about 25, there is one guy who has had knee surgeries, 2 guys with hips, and 2 shoulders. I guess I've been lucky so far. On the other hand, without tennis I would be getting zero exercise and I'd likely be 30-40lbs overweight and on hypertension medication.
     
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  11. asimple

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    Unfortunately I am also about 25 pounds overweight and on hypertension medication anyway. I'm actually not in that bad of shape, and with Aleeve can be somewhat competitive. I much prefer the joint pain to the other pains I felt when I was 60 pounds heavier though. I am trying to lose the last 25 pounds but it is really difficult. A lot of my motivation for the first 60 was to be competitive on the tennis court. I am starting to realize that my age is probably going to be a bigger limit than weight going forward.
     
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  12. CurrenFan

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    I'm the same way but even more so. I've always been allergic to smoke and have utterly hated it - when I was a kid, I had relatives who smoked who refused my requests for them not to smoke in the car with me and who would taunt me sometimes by blowing smoke in my direction or even directly in my face. Exposure to tobacco smoke of any sort gets me a stuffy nose, a sore throat, burning eyes and a headache. This is true even outdoors - some of the worst tobacco allergy symptoms I've dealt with in the past decade have actually been at outdoor concerts where I've discovered as soon as the bands hit the stage and people return to their chairs and blankets that I'm surrounded by smokers, leaving me the choice of being miserable, or having to relocate to some spot on the side 100+ feet further back away from the stage.

    I guess it would be pretty fair to call me a militant anti-smoker: If someone literally came to me and said "If you don't let me have a cigarette, I'm going to go into a nicotine withdrawal seizure [assuming there was such a thing] and I could die," I'd respond "Hope you have a will and your affairs in order - the answer is NO." I've had one friend, a co-worker, in the past 25 years who smokes, and that person is somewhat saddened by the fact that I turn down all invitations to socialize at her house and won't invite her to mine - I simply cannot stand the smell of smoke, fresh or clinging to someone's hair and clothes. She knows if she wants things to change, all she has to do is break her addiction and quit her habit.

    Nobody needs to smoke and if their addiction makes them feel it is a genuine need, that is entirely their own fault. Everyone who smokes knew when they started that it was bad for them and that it would bother other people, but they all said "to hell with anyone else, I'm going to do what I want." That is why I say to hell with smokers. I actually do need to breathe fresh air, as is the case for almost everyone else. I would say that the need to breathe fresh air automatically trumps any desire to smoke. I see no reason why smokers should have any right to spew their filth in any public place. If it was up to me, I'd outlaw smoking in all public locations, indoors or outdoors, except designated smoking establishments and would prohibit such places from serving food or having live entertainment.

    I am opposed to virtually any derogatory stereotype imaginable and consider myself to be as open-minded and free of bigotry as anyone. However, after more than 40 years of hating smoking, I won't hesitate to say that smokers are virtually all (i.e. well over 99 percent of them) thoughtless *ssholes. Show me 100 people who think they are conscientious smokers (a small percentage of the smoking population) and I'll show you 99 jerks and one person who is borderline. ALL smokers toss their butts on the sidewalk, out the car window, etc... - I've never met a single smoker in my life who properly disposed of every single cigarette butt. Somehow they don't think that's littering. I wonder what the overall cost is in the U.S. for dealing with all the fires caused by thoughtless smokers irresponsibly dealing with their filthy, lit habit.
     
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  13. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

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    After reading this, I kind of wish I still smoked so I could blow smoke into your face.
     
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  14. GlennK

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    +1 ditto +
     
    #64
  15. tennis tom

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    #65
  16. Overdrive

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    See?

    I knew this thread would turn into a battleground for socio-politcal agendas.
     
    #66
  17. Rjtennis

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    For sure, I don't smoke either but passing by a smoker isn't going to send me to my deathbed. I don't want people and the government telling me what to do, so I better not be a hypocrite and meddle in their business.
     
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  18. Chico

    Chico Banned

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    +2. He is way over the top.
     
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  19. tennis tom

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    Yah, you and Nostradamus. What's a "socio-political agenda"?--is that like "sandbagging"?
     
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  20. Overdrive

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    Fedest?

    No, the thread was dead on arrival.

    What...? You're kidding, right?

    No, they are not similar at all..
     
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  21. CurrenFan

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    How is smoking any different from going up to someone and loudly smashing a pair of symbols near their head or cranking a stereo very loudly in their neighborhood late at night? Both activities are ones that, in the right environment, can be acceptable, but are altogether unnecessary. Whether or not someone is addicted to nicotine is entirely their own fault - why should anyone else have to accommodate their stupid decision to become an addict? Why isn't my need to breathe fresh air every bit as important as the need to avoid a headache or be able to avoid a distraction that will interfere with sleep? People make all sorts of accommodations for nut allergies these days (seriously, did such a thing even exist before 1980? I don't think I ever heard of anyone having nut allergies until I was at least in high school or maybe college), and while yes, the consequences of an allergic reaction to nuts can be much more severe than allergic reactions to smoke, vastly more people are allergic to or bothered by smoke than by peanuts. Not to mention that eating nuts can be downright healthy, whereas no form of smoking is.

    The bottom line is that smokers are ALL inconsiderate. Reasonable parents do not condone or accommodate children being rude - why should it be any different when the thoughtless person is an adult with a damn cigarette in his or her hand?
     
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  22. newpball

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    [​IMG]
     
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  23. asimple

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    By that logic since I am allergic to Christmas trees we should ban Christmas since there really isn't a need for that. I am also allergic to cats so why don't we not allow them as pets so I am not bothered. The nut bans you mention are completely stupid IMHO, but in this case they are put in place to avoid kids dieing not your getting a headache.
     
    #73
  24. CurrenFan

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    Well, there's not too much logic to your analogy - people tend to leave their cats and Christmas trees at home and if you know a friend or family member is likely to have a cat or Christmas tree, you can have them over to your house or go out to a restaurant or bar. When's the last time you were in some outdoor public place and suddenly someone whipped out their longhaired Persian or their 8' Frazier Fir and stuck it in your face?
     
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  25. asimple

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    You might be surprised. During the holiday season there are many places which have Christmas trees. Many of them are fake now but there are still a substantial amount of real ones in public places. I have small kids who want a tree, and on occasion visit my parent's house who until recently had a tree. My parents even got a cat after I moved out. I could be a ***** and make a big deal out of it or just let them enjoy themselves.

    I won't waste time posting again, because I think we disagree on inconsiderate. I believe consideration means being accommodating to others choices while yours seems to include a zealot like intolerance.
     
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  26. newpball

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    People get upset about just about anything nowadays, including Christmas trees.

    They go through life being upset about anything, be it a Christmas tree, someone smoking outside or a person being gracious enough to give someone a let at tennis.
     
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  27. RetroSpin

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    I actually used to feel pretty similarly to the way you do, and I know many people who would agree with you. I think you're wrong though.

    What you are really arguing for is for smoking to be illegal, anywhere and everywhere. It's not though, so people do have the legal right to smoke in places where it's not prohibited.

    Your analogy to loud music, etc fails because that is something that would annoy everybody. You however claim a special hypersensitivity to smoke that is not shared by others. Let's say you were an alcoholic and the sight of people drinking coudl easily trigger you to go off the wagon. Is it reasonable then for you to demand that no one drink a beer in the clubhouse after a league match?

    It may sound harsh and thoughtless to you, but demanding that everyone else modify their behavior to accommodate your special issue is generally not going to work.
     
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  28. Gut4Tennis

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    maybe he has a medical marijuana reason
     
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  29. stapletonj

    stapletonj Semi-Pro

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    I've played on the court with a cigar smoker before.

    C'mon man!

    (insert "overly many man" meme here)
     
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  30. stapletonj

    stapletonj Semi-Pro

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    Of course, my personal favorite tactic is "crop dusting" the opponents' bench at changeover.....

    Takes practice to perfect the silent but deadly you know....
     
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  31. tennis4josh

    tennis4josh Rookie

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    I hate smoking but not the smokers. There are few smokers among my tennis friends, but they always make it a point to smoke far away from the courts. I hate it when people stand right behind the fence and smoke. That in insensitive in my opinion. They have right to smoke but no right to force others to second hand smoking.

    -Josh
     
    #81
  32. NLBwell

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    One of the major reasons for the success of the anti-smoking crusade is that smokers don't ask the polite question that they always would ask in the old days:
    "Mind if I smoke?"

    Someone asked me that a while ago and I told him how impressed I was that he was polite enough to do that.
    Why do people assume the right to discomfort others these days?
     
    #82
  33. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I'm totally with you, man.

    Current fan for president, 2016!!!!

    Cindy -- wondering what smokers would think if people started disposing of used condoms by tossing them out of car windows
     
    #83
  34. PushyPushster

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    I played a league singles match against a guy who went through the entire warmups with a cigarette dangling out of the side of his mouth. It was hypnotic. Then warmups ended, he crushed out the ciggy, and headed back onto the court like a gladiator.

    I was like, "Uh Oh. **** Just Got Serious."
     
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  35. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    I"d be wondering how that lady driving by herself is having sex... then I'd figure it out. Then I'd wonder why she needed a condom.
     
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  36. CurrenFan

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    This summer I was at an amusement park that has a no smoking policy anywhere in the park except designated smoking areas. We managed to grab a picnic table under a big umbrella right before lunchtime when suddenly a storm hits and everyone rushes for the umbrellas to get out of the rain. This guy at the next table over who looked like he did 25 years of hard time in a Mississippi penitentiary lights up a cigarette and starts blowing smoke right at my elementary school-aged daughter as she is trying to eat her lunch. I got up, approached the guy, and politely asked him not to smoke in the picnic table area and advised him that the entire park is non-smoking other than designated areas. He got a truly evil look on his face, looked like he would have hit me if we were alone and threw his cigarette butt down at my feet, lunging toward me to stamp it out, yelling loudly "Fine! I won't smoke if you promise not to fart!" He then proceeded to yell and scream at me every couple minutes about how I was "tryin' ta take awl mah constee-tooo-shunl rahts!" and got in my face once so angry I really thought he was going to hit me. My daughter was nearly in tears and shaking she was so upset.

    Now this isn't your average, run-of-the-mill, typical smoker. But people this irrational and angry are not at all unique amongst the ranks of smokers.

    Whenever I'm filling my car up at the gas station and a smoker gets out of his/her car near me with a lit cigarette, I'll say "This isn't the smartest place to smoke, is it?" For every person over the years who embarassingly and sheepishly pops the cigarette back in the car and says "Crap! You're right - I just forgot. Thanks!" (i.e. an appropriate response), I've had at least half a dozen tell me to go F-myself or mutter "Damn nonsmokers!"

    The bottom line is that there just isn't any good reason to smoke and nobody genuinely needs to smoke. In contrast, there's plenty of good reason to want to breathe fresh air that isn't polluted with the stench of someone else's filthy addiction.
     
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  37. newpball

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    More, obviously fictional, stories in an obvious and pathetic attempt to give more weight to one's argument.

    Is it just me or are there a couple of members who do this all the time on this forum? I wonder if their IP addresses are the same and it is really one person behind many avatars?
     
    #87
  38. CurrenFan

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    1) You're completely wrong - story at the amusement park was absolutely, 100% true - to keep the story brief I omitted mentioning that I told him several times to mind his own business and there is no need to be obnoxious when someone politely asks you to follow a rule. As to the ratio of obnoxious comments to thankful ones for pointing out a highly dangerous condition near a gas pump, that is as close to accurate as I can guess without having kept statistics on it over the years.

    2) I have no specific idea about anyone else, but given the juvenile and highly emotional nature of some of the members' fanboi/gurrl-ism here ("My favorite player's the GOAT".... "NO - MY favorite player's the GOAT!!!!"), I'm sure people do create multiple accounts. However, I'm not anyone's alter ego and have never created multiple accounts on any internet forum. I've been accused of it before though - a clique of arrogant old timers on a site refused to believe anyone new to their site in the year 2009 could possibly have been a member of a different internet forum/message board and know how they work. Plus, they refused to believe that multiple people could a) have a common idea about a common topic; and b) call them out for unfairly picking on newbie members, so they started announcing that I was the alter-ego of some former alleged troll who got banned and began a [n unsuccessful] campaign for me to be banned. It became pretty obvious that the old timers on that site were a lot more opinionated and closed-minded than they were intelligent. But that's how it works on many internet forums, doesn't it?
     
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  39. CurrenFan

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    Oh, and newpball, one other thing: before you go implying that someone else should get a life, you ought to look at your own participation on this website. Over 1,000 posts in only 3 months??? Do I need to explain to you the irony? You have to be one of those unemployed guys who lives in his parent's basement and spends 18 hours a day on the internet, flexing his imaginary muscles. MAAAAA! HEY MAAAAA! WHAT'S FOR DINNER? DID YOU WASH MY SUPERMAN JAMMIES? MOM!!!!!
     
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  40. hrstrat57

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    Thread is out of control
     
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