Annual flu shot bashing thread - 2012

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by sureshs, Sep 21, 2012.

  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    We all got the shot today.

    May the battles begin.
     
    #1
  2. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Dear god :shock:
     
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  3. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Good for the young, the healthy, and the strong.
    Bad for the old, the sickly, and the weak.
     
    #3
  4. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Other way around. Oldies are in the high-risk category
     
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  5. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Every year, the elderly get sicker, get new sicknesses, die from the new bugs introduced into their systems. Leave them well enough alone.
    They young can handle the germs that are introduced into your body.
    Most old folks don't die directly from the shots, but die from complications from the shot including pnumonia, added load to the immune system (that is already weak and suspect), and results from being more sick than they already are.
    Leave them alone.
     
    #5
  6. Talker

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    Oh my god.

    I always wondered who gets those shots. :???:
     
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  7. Squidward

    Squidward Rookie

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    I'll Pass, Thank You Very Much....
     
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  8. Thepowerofchoice

    Thepowerofchoice Semi-Pro

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    Please don't listen to this. Do your reserch.
     
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  9. Thepowerofchoice

    Thepowerofchoice Semi-Pro

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    #9
  10. clutch21

    clutch21 Rookie

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    #10
  11. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    No flu shot for me. Had it once in my life and it made me sick. Never again. Most years I don't get the flu, and I'm not in a high risk group.

    I disagree with the push to give the shot to people who aren't in high risk groups. I guess the logic is that less flu will be spread if all take the shots, but the shots have been hit-and-miss in terms of identifying which strain will hit big this fall and winter.

    I'd advise to get the single-dose versions so you don't get mercury injected into your bloodstream if you want to get the flu shot.
     
    #11
  12. clutch21

    clutch21 Rookie

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    I know this is falling on deaf ears, but it's not possible to get sick from the flu shot. The flu shot is an inactive virus. It is not possible to get sick from it. That is a fact. If you were sick, it was purely coincidence.

    There is a very small chance that you might be allergic to the flu vaccine, but medically speaking, the virus cannot reproduce in your cells, making you sick like the an active influenza strain will.
     
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  13. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I did get sick from the shot. I didn't say I got the flu, but I suffered a fever and aches and pains for days after the shot. The CDC says these are potential side effects. So, no, it wasn't purely coincidence that I went from feeling completely healthy to sick the day after getting the flu shot.
     
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  14. clutch21

    clutch21 Rookie

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    Our definitions of "sick" are different. Benign aches and a fever that last a day or two is not a sickness, in my opinion. Especially when you weigh those side effects against actually acquiring the flu. I guess we are just going to have to disagree.
     
    #14
  15. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Best to get the flu shot early. It prevents spread to others if you would happen to be one of the first people to get the flu. Also, if you get the flu already and you are about to get symptoms (it takes a day or two) and then get the shot, the body spends energy fighting the dead flu as well as the live flu and you can get sicker than you would otherwise.
     
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  16. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Yes we will. Because I've gotten the flu in the past and had symptoms which lasted a day or two and were no big deal.

    It is a mistake to conclude that all people will suffer from a flu to the same extent. Sometimes flu symptoms can be vicious and other times they are just slightly annoying. Perhaps it depends on the flu strain, the viral load, and how well your immune system is working. But some years I've helped people who have received the vaccine yet still become quite sick, while I've only had symptoms that are like an annoying cold.

    As I previously stated, I'm not in a high risk group and have had good success without the vaccine so I'll just take my chances and save some money.
     
    #16
  17. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    The last time I had a flu shot (about 20 years ago), it left a wheal on my arm about the size of a golf ball. No mas para mio.
     
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  18. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Sorry, but you can't believe everything you read on Medline either. Scientific fraud is epidemic. Financial conflicts of interest in medical research are the norm. And, there is an inverse relationship between the reliability of medical research and the financial interest in the outcome of the research of those involved in the reporting and underlying studies of such research.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
    #18
  19. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    So how did you know you had the flu and not a cold?
     
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  20. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I can't say with certainty(both caused by viruses), but since I was being exposed to the flu virus from being around people who had obvious flu-like symptoms, I just assumed that the virus-like symptoms I was experiencing were from the same virus.

    When you think about it, very few of us ever are tested for the strain of virus we've contracted. If someone you know gets a fever with aches and pains and then starts projectile vomiting, and then a few days later you come down with the same symptoms, you just assume that you've caught a flu going around. Since antibiotics don't work for viruses, I don't recall a doctor ever taking a flu sample and then culturing it. I would guess that you could test for certain proteins in the immune system after the fact, but I'm not a doctor and I don't know much about virus identification other than knowing that it can be rather difficult (as the controversy and difficulty in identifying and isolating the AIDS virus showed).
     
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  21. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    A doctor told me this "joke" a while back"


    A man walks into the pharmacy and tells his pharmacist, "Doc, I have a terrible flu, what can you give me to make me feel better".

    Pharmacist replies, "You don't have the flu, you have a cold".

    Man asks, "How do you know that".

    Pharmacist replies, "Because you're here".



    Point being, when you have the flu (instead of a cold), you aren't up walking around. It really knocks you on your ***.

    The further point is that people often mistake a (bad) cold for the flu.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
    #21
  22. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    But by your own admission you didn't present with the same symptoms as the people you were helping.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
    #22
  23. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    As I've stated previously, neither of us can be sure. However, it is wrong to think that everyone suffers as much from the same flu virus. People with weak or compromised immune systems can die from a seasonal flu. The rest of us suffer a lot, a little, or not at all. The whole point of a vaccine is to prep the immune system to deal with a strain of the virus. It could be that my immune system had dealt with a related virus in the past and therefore did a better job of fighting off the new strain as compared to someone else.

    Last winter I took care of a few people who were out for almost a week with a nasty flu. I didn't get anything even though I most likely was exposed to the same virus (we identified who first exposed the other three who got sick and got an idea of the incubation period). Now it is possible that I didn't get exposed. It is also possible that I was also exposed to the virus but my immune system did a better job of dealing with it.
     
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  24. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I asked my doctor yesterday if the shots are effective even though the viruses keep mutating. She said it is still 80% effective even if the strain changes. She also said once she got the flu and could not get out of bed for 3 days.

    We take it only because we have a school-going kid.

    On the discomfort side, I took the shot in the morning, had pain in the arm for a few hours, but was playing tennis (and serving) in the evening with no pain. Felt tired at night and slept like a log and now absolutely OK.
     
    #24
  25. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    When flu shots are in short supply, first preference is given to people above 65.

    I suppose the NIH and CDC and everyone else in the world is wrong and you are right.
     
    #25
  26. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I like that. Even though you are an accountant in a medical institution (well that did not come out right), you have learnt medical jargon like "presents."

    The first time I heard that someone presented with the symptoms, I was like, did he bring them wrapped properly.
     
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  27. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Suresh. Every year, the flu shot KILL dozens of senior citizens. That is also well documented, and presented on Channel 4 news several times in the last 10 years.
    The shot itself doesn't kill anyone. BUT, the effects of the shot, taking part of the immune system to combat the effects of the shot does, as it weakens the total immune system at a period of time when it's needed to fight off other diseases.
    Say you're in old fart. OK, not U, but me. I have maybe 60% of the total resistance and immunity power of you. I'm old. I'm injured. I'm sick. I'm out of shape. I don't get regular exercise.
    Now shoot me up with disease. Since I have only 60% to fight with, just combatting the new stuff you introduced into my body takes half of that. Now I have only THIRTY percent to fight off the germs that are already present in my body!
    GET IT?
    You don't, those stupid "experts" don't.
    Remember, your scientists are so STUPID, they take a 103 year old sturgeon who lived in fresh water all it's life (LakeSonoma in Cal.), dump it into salt water, and it dies in ONE day!
    For every 10 scientists, we need 10 people with COMMON SENSE.
     
    #27
  28. Avles

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    Umm, I think I'd like to see a citation on that one. I think you probably misinterpreted whatever you saw on the news.

    I don't get the flu shot because I've never had the flu, I'm not in one of the populations that has a lot to fear from the flu, and I'd rather not mess around with my organism more than necessary. Irrational maybe but that's what I'm going with.

    But I don't think it's a bad idea to get one, and I may start getting it when I join the ranks of the old and/or infirm.
     
    #28
  29. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Avles, you are not 75 years old, weak, old, tired, sick, and in need of constant assistance to perform life's basic chores.
    What works for YOU, like daily exercise, eating steak, running and jumping, might not work for some elderly or the sick.
    YOU think everything that works for you works for everyone else.
    YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!
     
    #29
  30. Avles

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    Not sure where you got the idea that I was advocating any course of action for anybody. I think everyone should make their own choices about the flu vaccine and I'm not about to criticize anyone's choice.

    I was just saying that I think you may have misinterpreted what the local news had to say (and the local news isn't exactly the best source for medical info anyway).

    The science that says that the flu shot is a net positive for the very young and the elderly looks fairly convincing to me. I'll take another look at it if I'm considering the shots for myself, or if I have kids.
     
    #30
  31. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    The "science", like the politician, and the war monger tyrant, is willing to sacrifice a few for the good of the many.
    Would you? If one of the few was your uncle?
    What about if it was YOU?
     
    #31
  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Everyone listen to Dr. Lee, Board Certified in Tennis.

    I don't know where you got the sturgeon news from, but if it was not for vaccines, you will probably not be here today or going around with twisted limbs from polio or a body full of warts from smallpox. Trust me, I have seen such people firsthand.
     
    #32
  33. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Yes, I took the polio, smallpox, chickenpox, and the shots when I was 5 years old, maybe 4. And I thank that for being alive today.
    Doesn't mean it doesn't kill the elderly or the sick.
    To sacrifice a few for the good of the many is a choice we all have to examine very closely. At what price?
    Another stupid scientist thing...... There is a MarineMammalCenter here in MarinCountiesFt.CronkiteBeach. Every year, they take in stray, lost, injured, or abandoned baby seals, nurse them to health, TAG THEM, then release them back to the ocean. Guess what? Fully NINETY percent of them die within a year, or need human care. Why is that, I ask you?
     
    #33
  34. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    You've had the flu and not suffered at all (had no symptoms)? I'll have to take your word on that. Or do you mean that you had the flu virus, but since you had the flu shot, your body was able to rid it from your body before you got sick with symptoms?

    Generally speaking, flu's are more severe than colds.

    I also think you can just check for fever. You might get a very mild fever with a cold (but usually not, unless you are a kid), but will always (nearly always?) have a fever with the flu.

    This CDC article basically agrees with us both. It says that it is impossible to tell the two apart, but suggests common symptoms associated with each.

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/coldflu.htm
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
    #34
  35. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Deleted for mootness.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
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  36. WildVolley

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    I'm editing this to make clear that when I say "having the flu" I'm talking about exposure to the virus, not necessarily the nasty symptoms. I'm just suggesting that it is possible to be exposed to a virus and have an immune system response without necessarily suffering from a nasty infection. So, this would suggest exposure to the virus not getting sick.

    Again, I'm not an expert on this subject, but I do believe that it is possible that exposure to a virus doesn't necessarily mean a rip-roaring infection. As I understand it, a virus is a piece of genetic code usually in a hard protein cover that hijacks cells to reproduce. As I understand it, these viruses are extremely common, though luckily not all of them cause infections.

    If your immune system is healthy, it should seek out viruses that are causing trouble and destroy them so they can't keep hijacking cells and reproducing. I've done stupid things like accidentally drink out of glass someone else with an active flu symptoms was using. My assumption is that I was exposed to the virus even though I didn't develop any symptoms of an infection. Perhaps I was never infected or perhaps my immune system cleared it before it caused any noticeable trouble.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
    #36
  37. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Somehow we got sidetracked.

    I only commented several posts ago that you can generally tell if you have the cold or a flu by the severity of the symptoms. Then I suggested checking for fever. I believe many people do mistake their cold for the flu. But in my experience, people that really have the flu (full blown; symptoms; etc), are pretty much in bed for at least a day or two. But it is (quite) possible to function with a (bad) cold.

    But yes, I understand that the immune system can fight off the virus and you may never have any symptoms at all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
    #37
  38. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Yeah, getting a bad flu is not fun. It has been more than five years since I've had the sort of flu in which I ended up over a toilet with stuff coming out both ends.

    I think a lot of people would get the flu shot if they thought it could prevent that with a high level of efficacy. However, from what I've read, the flu shot doesn't have a good record over the past number of years of even correctly identifying the strains that traveled thru California. I remember a lot of people who had the shot still getting a nasty flu two years ago.
     
    #38
  39. Avles

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    Well, what if one of the many was my uncle or me?

    There's no risk-free course of action. So I try to take the course of action that minimizes risks. Science can help with that, even if it can't offer certainties.
     
    #39
  40. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    In other words, you are willing to sacrifice a few for the good of the many.
     
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  41. beernutz

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  42. Talker

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    But it's good some are getting the vaccine, we need these people to test it out for us. :)

    http://vactruth.com/2012/09/22/no-flu-shot-no-job/
     
    #42
  43. pvaudio

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    I don't know where you get your information, but you must have read it backwards. The number of people who die from the flu every year is astounding. The number of people who die from the flu vaccine every year are coincidental cases. People over 65 are the ones who need protection from live influenza the most since without the antibodies already present, they're less likely to be strong enough to fight off the virus. In other words, you saying that the elderly are the most at risk of dying from the vaccine is likely true, but along the same line, they're the most likely to contract and die if they even get a mild strain of live influenza virus.

    To those of you saying you got the flu vaccine and felt terrible for a day or so, you had nothing close to the flu. Even these days, unless you're hopped up on as many NSAIDs as you can take within a reasonable period, you will be too weak to be walking around. I once took an exam freshman year as I was coming down with the flu. It was in February, and I went to the test wearing two under armours, a coat, tights, pants and a sweatshirt because my chills were that ferocious. After walking to the test and back, I was so destroyed that my roomate ended up calling my parents who took me out of school for four days. That's normalfor the flu, not just feeling sick and going to wal-mart for some tylenol and kleenex.

    So yes Lee, by your logic, I would gladly sacrifice a few to keep tens of thousands from dying as they do each year.

     
    #43
  44. tennisenthusiast

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    I am a healthy adult in my early 30s. I have never been sick even with a cold until I got flu in late 2010. It took the --- out of me. I was pretty sure at that time that it was not a simple cold because I couldn't even wake up from the bed and I have never been in that situation before.

    For me the peace of mind outweighs the risk of getting flu and ever since 2010 I have been taking flu shots.

    That's all.
     
    #44
  45. LuckyR

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    Uummm... you do get that influenza vaccines are not live virus vaccines, right?
     
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  46. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Hmm, you DO get that introducing anything into your system that takes away some immunity you might need to live fight off what you already have is a sure sign of KILLING YOU, like execution, don't you?
    All you guys who favor this vaccination are young. Wait till YOU are old, then let's see how YOU feel about it.
    In your 30's, you're invincible. In your 60's, you're ONE small mistake from the grave.
     
    #46
  47. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Like getting the flu when it was preventable
     
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  48. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Yeah, or maybe like getting the flu when it was avoidable.
     
    #48
  49. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    And you're naive enough to think that dead virus particles, along with random flotsam and jetsam of various immunogenic activity gain entry into your body mostly through vaccination?
     
    #49
  50. beernutz

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    This is LeeD you're talking about here. Surely this is a rhetorical question?
     
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