Another Instance Of Officiating Error?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Oct 3, 2011.

  1. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    This tale comes from an episode at Districts. I didn't see it, but a spectator told me about it.

    Player A hit a lob that was sailing well out. As soon as she hit it, she made a sound expressing frustration ("Aaaack!").

    Opponent Player B did not catch the ball, and it bounced well outside the court. Player B did not play the ball. Player B did not make an audible or visual out call.

    The official monitoring that court awarded the point to Player A. The explanation given was that the Code requires players to make an audible or visual out call.

    That ruling cannot possibly be right, can it? I don't think all Code violations are automatic loss of point. Shouldn't the official warn Player B to make audible calls, and then only if it seems to be contributing to a problem of some sort?
     
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  2. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    Sounds like an extreme application of "if you don't call it out, then it is in". That's one reason why I always at least do a quick "out" hand signal no matter how far out the ball is.

    If I was player A in this situation, I'd have probably donated the next point.
     
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  3. NoQuarter

    NoQuarter Rookie

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    Wow...that's a tough one....but Player B should have made a call. I can't say that it should have been a point penalty....but Player B probably won't make that mistake again. I have been going over this with my Wife and her team mates all year (this is their first year in league). I'll be playing with them and they will hit one over the fence and I will make the Out call....they say something like "Thanks Captain Obvious"....then I have to explain to them that if I did not make that call, then it is their point.
     
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  4. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    But the Code doesn't say if you fail to make a call the point goes to the opponent. It could say that, but it doesn't.

    I'd hate to see roving officials start to impose point penalties for everything they see that isn't strictly according to the Code.

    I mean, if the server fails to announce the score before serving, is that also loss of point?
     
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  5. Nellie

    Nellie Hall of Fame

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    I think that is a terrible call - the ITF rule 24 say that a player loses the point when the ball lands out. There is no ambiguity. The Code (which operate under the rules) paragraph 15 says you are "entitled" to an prompt audible/visible call, but the paragraph 13 of the Code also, mentions that opponents "should" call their own shots out when obvious.
     
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  6. Douggo

    Douggo Semi-Pro

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    I'd guess the prevailing logic here is not that the point is awarded to player A for player B's lack of call. Rather, for the failure of player B to return a shot that was assumed in by virtue of having not been called out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
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  7. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Imo This is not a judgement call and should be appealed to the Tournament Referee for a ruling.

    JLyon?
     
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  8. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Wow. I often don't call or signal an opponents ball that is clearly out (like several feet long/wide, or blasted into the fence). I feel like that is rubbing it in. However maybe I should make a hand signal regardless of how ridiculously out a ball is.

    I also think Cindy asks a good question about officials awarding a point for code violations where the rules don't specify a penalty.
     
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  9. Douggo

    Douggo Semi-Pro

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    See my post above. I think if you don't call the ball out, then it's in. So you lose the point when the ball has bounced twice. Not a penalty.

    That said, I'm like everybody else. If it's way out, I assume my opponent has seen it out, and I don't call it.

    Oh, and player A, in the spirit of getting the call right, should not have accepted the point. I would assume that's part of the Code.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
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  10. NoQuarter

    NoQuarter Rookie

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    I feel the same way...about rubbing it in (see my earlier post about comments I receive). But if you don't then you run into people that will say, "I am entitled to a call".
     
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  11. rjw

    rjw Professional

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    I'm with you on this....I would have donated the next point. Hopefully it didn't happen at a crucial part of a match.
     
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  12. Rui

    Rui Semi-Pro

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    The way I operate is: if it's close, I call it. If it's obvious, I use "the finger." Sometimes both. Works for me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
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  13. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    To be honest I am calling a little BS on this story or it is exaggerated since it is coming as a second hand story.
    There has to be more to the story, such as did the opponent protest the call, a roving official unless called to court should not be making rulings unless there is a clear mistake such as a clear line-call mistake.

    If the ball was obviously out the only thing an official should do is remind the players to make and audible call or a universal hand signal to clarify that the ball was out.

    Just can not see a certified official making this type of call, but I would call for the tournament referee and ask about the ruling, there is no dispute on fact I assume that both players agreed the ball was out and the player did not make an audible call, but come on this is league tennis you sound more like an *** if you call an obvious out ball out, it is not juniors.
     
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  14. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    It is actually against the rules to not accept the penalty or point from the official.
     
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  15. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    It would be far more fun to curse out the official to get a point penalty to even things out.
     
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  16. rjw

    rjw Professional

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    Interesting solution!!
     
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  17. jswinf

    jswinf Professional

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    The thing about your post above is that I'm pretty sure you meant "the failure of player B to return a shot..." This stuff is confusing enough.
     
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  18. Douggo

    Douggo Semi-Pro

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    You're right. I'll fix it. Thanks.
     
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  19. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Right. They're "entitled to a call." That doesn't mean they are entitled to a point.

    I mean, unless the umpire said, "Player B, what is your call?" and Player B refused to make one, I can't think of an argument for loss of point.
     
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  20. Coach Carter

    Coach Carter Rookie

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    if I had been player B...you mispelled it...I would have detonated on the next point. I would have exploded...
     
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  21. Douggo

    Douggo Semi-Pro

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    I would assume as player B, you don't have the luxury of calling a ball out after it has bounced twice on your side.
     
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  22. NoQuarter

    NoQuarter Rookie

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    Yeah...I have never had anyone claim the point....just that they needed a call.
     
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  23. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    I would assume (under the "calling own shots out" provision of the code) that player A could simply have called thir own shot out at that point and all would have been right in the world. I agree with jlyon that there is something missing in this story.
     
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  24. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous Legend

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    I feel the exact same way. And I get annoyed when opponents ask on balls like that because I'm like "dude you can't feel that you sprayed the **** out of that ball nor could you tell that it sailed several feet long/wide?!?!"

    If it's relatively close I can understand and I always make the call one way or the other.

    But balls that aren't even close really don't need a visual or audible signal...
     
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  25. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Code 13 and code 15 are not addressing the same topic. 13 is referring to a player calling their own shots out while 15 is referring to calling an opponent's shots out.

    I do agree with you that this is a terrible call by the official. The remedy for not getting something to which you are entitled during a point is not necessarily for the other party to lose the point.
     
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  26. Douggo

    Douggo Semi-Pro

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    For those of you who don't think loss of point is a fair penalty for failure to make a prompt call, what would you propose would be a fair penalty?

    Also, do the roving officials make line calls? If player B had returned the ball, could the official have called it out?

    EDIT: From USTA Friend At Court:

    FAC Comment VII.D-4: A Roving Umpire should never overrule an extremely
    close ball. Players are playing under The Code and are expected to give their
    opponents the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, a Roving Umpire should be
    reluctant to call a ball out that has been played as good. The overrule of an out
    ball that has been played as good may be made only when a Roving Official is
    stationed on court.


    So I think most of us (not including myself) have been assuming that the official was right there, saw the ball clearly out, and chose to call "failure to make prompt call", rather than calling the ball. It does look like the official would have the discretion to call the ball out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2011
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  27. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous Legend

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    I wasn't there so I have no idea how far out the ball was or was not. However, if it was as far out as people have made it seem, including the op, then that's a time when the official should just mention to the player that you're supposed to signal the ball was out. A simple warning should suffice. I mean pros get a time violation warning before incurring a point penalty for going over the allotted time every now and again.
     
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  28. beeveewee

    beeveewee New User

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    The official should have stayed out of it altogether and left it to the players. Generally a roving official should not impose on a match unless appealed to by the players.

    Second best would be to call the ball out if it was clearly out. Fairness in competition is the goal of the code, not technicality.
     
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  29. pheonix6579

    pheonix6579 Semi-Pro

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    I agree. For one the officials role in this was uncalled for. Two, are we to make audible calls on everything? Like when i am returning serve and my opponent hits his first serve into the net, am i supposed to shout NET! (Which gets old real quick as i have had guys do that to me)

    If we are going to be REALLY TECHNICAL the call should have gone to playerB because player A made loud sound that just might have affected the other player (just ask Serena about that one.
     
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  30. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Ditto, I can't believe this thread has any legs left.
     
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