Another one bites the dust....

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by tennis5, Oct 15, 2012.

  1. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    ZOO Tennis - 10/15/2012

    http://tenniskalamazoo.blogspot.com/

    I first heard over the weekend from the Running Forehand blog that Andrea Collarini, who had played under the US flag for more than two years, including at 2010's US Open Junior Championships, will return to playing for Argentina, where he grew up and developed prior to receiving a USTA grant for training in Boca Raton.



    RUNNING FOREHAND

    http://www.runningforehand.com/2012/10/12/collarini-to-play-for-argentina/

    Today, the Asociación Argentina de Tenis (AAT) emitted a release that rejoiced many:
    Andrea Collarini will, from now on, once again represent Argentina on the ATP Tour, “a very important decision” for the young lefty:

    “I was born in the United States, but I lived and developed my tennis in Argentina for as long as I can remember,
    and have even represented what I feel is my country.
    I value the experience I gained in the United States, but my place is here.”



    NYT - 2010

    http://straightsets.blogs.nytimes.c...tarts-discussion-of-his-national-affiliation/

    Earlier in 2010, he moved with his coach, Diego Moyano, to Boca Raton, Fla., to be a part of the U.S.T.A.’s training program, setting off wrinkles of anger in much of Argentina....

    ... In that same article, Collarini told Robson that the U.S.T.A. “pays me everything,” meaning that they are now providing financial backing for his touring of the junior and pro circuit, not uncommon from an up-and-coming junior player.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
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  2. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    How much more has to happen before somebody at the USTA PD loses their job over ignorant decisions like this? There are no repercussions for their actions at all.
     
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  3. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    I remember well seeing him at 2010 USO juniors. Crafty lefty. Made a big splash because he was 100% Argentinian, but born in USA and USTA got him. He upset #1 ITF junior in 1st round. Looked good. What were the chances USA would keep him? Only if they could outspend the Argentines. He did not consider himself American.
     
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  4. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Obviously, this was a devilish crafty plot on the part of PMAC. I am sure they have destroyed his game over the past two years, and he will never recover. Simultaneously, one lucky American was saved from having to go to Boca.

    I think this is a possible solution to American tennis. We should offer free training at a Boca to the top 50 juniors in the world, accept the Americans. I guarantee you in 10 years we will be dominating again.
     
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  5. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    LOL


    ......
     
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  6. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    haha obviously we dont get the full story. In a situation like this there are contracts drawn up, bonuses and ranking expectations.

    Could have been a 3 year contract...if he does not reach a certain ranking...the USTA stops paying his expenses, in which case he can change back to playing for argentina
     
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  7. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Hilarious.

    I seriously think if they bulldozed White Plains, converted all the Training Centers to City Facilities, fired everyone (& I mean EVERYONE) at Junior Development & then hired a commitee of 3 (Put one bean counter with Tennis 5 & Clark, or TCF & MisterBill, or Aloha & someone else....I don't care) to decide how to divy up the money....that we'd be way better off.

    Blue Chip &/or Top 50 usta gets you so much, Top 100, but only a 3 star gets this much. The guy who's 250 with usta (but is a 5 star) gets that much. (& 2-3 guys here could figure it out). Maybe save a few coins for the freak athlete who's coming on strong & all three can agree on.

    & then hire a couple of ladies to send checks out to the kids once a month & let them go find their own training.

    No beaurocracy (sp?), no wheelchair or diversity grants, (if you want to hold back some for financial need, it's up to you). Keep the foam & whiffle balls if you want to. Keep the computer monkeys at tennis link (& maybe have them revamp the USTA website).

    But just send checks to the kids & let them go find the best coach or academy that they can buy. The elite will probably congregate together anyway (like they did in the late 80s/early 90s).

    Hell some of them might end up at Boca City courts or Carson or Flushing Meadows City courts anyway (along with new coaches who HAVE a history of delivering.)

    You guys probably have 10-15 other (or better) ideas, but first we bulldoze the whole damn thing down, & put a process in place to send the $$ to the kids. Wouldn't be any worse than the past 15 years performance at the USTA Jr. Dev.
     
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  8. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    Let me guess tennis 5 will give privileges to her son, tcf to his daughter , aloha to his daughter and hey don't forget about me your pain in the butt pal at TT, throw in some coins for me, wink wink :wink:

    Is reminds me of my post to TCF many years ago


     
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  9. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Player Development money ( how many millions is it a year?)

    I would give 1/3 of the money to the accredited tennis academies and let them give out the scholarships.

    And the other 2/3 of the money to the kids who want to go pro for traveling expenses.

    Simple.

    Oh, and I guess you couldn't be living in another country.....
     
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  10. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    Correct , maybe he wants to play Davis cup for Argentina in 2014

    Maybe if patmac got martians from outer space to train with his American jr for free some members of the forum would be happy.:)

    Brining the best clay courter jr in the world to play with our hard court kids is not a great idea if we have to pay for it, it should be free:?
     
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  11. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    4 million?

    So if I am privy with the directors of these tennis academies I get the coins:wink:

    Please give me $100,000 because my kid wants to go pro, I promise I will not **** or gamble it away, see the problem ? How do we identify the crazy parents there are lots of them out there, some need it, some have deep pockets and don't need money.

    Collarini is an American citizen at birth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
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  12. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    You misunderstood what i (& i suppose what tennis 5) was suggesting. What i am saying is:

    1- Shut down USTA Junior Dev. Sell everything at auction.

    2- Fire everyone with USTA Junior Development. (from P-Mac on down).

    3- Keep Tennislink, Tournaments & Ranking System.


    We'd have the same number of Top Ten players from Jr. Dev. with -0- dollars spent each year as we've gotten the past 15 years under the past 2 regimes.

    But.....If we (or they) wanted to spend money on Junior Dev., then get a few smart people (maybe you & me? or people alot smarter than us) to come up with a SYSTEM to hand out the dough directly to the kids. We don't pick out the players.....the system that we create (or the computer) would. (just like it currently picks the players for an L1 or for star rankings on TRN).

    You might think a player who is a 14 y/o blue chip & who is top 50 nationally (USTA) should get 2k per month (for training, lessons, travel etc.) & I might think he should get 1.5K per month. Whatever. But we're not picking the players, we're coming up with a system which will determine what a player (at a particular level & age) would get.

    If the "commitee" or you & me....decides to hold some money back for financial need kids (or late blooming athletic freaks), that would be ok by me...or not.

    My point is.....just shut down the failed Junior Dev. system & send the dough to the kids. You (or tennishacker or whoever) can decide how much the kids in each level & age group get with the Tens of Millions saved by shutting down P-Mac's feifdom. Let the kids (& parents) who have been identified by ranking & or stars..... decide how to get the most (best) tennis training for the money.
    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2012
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  13. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Yes TCF, good point. The money needs to be spent on tennis (& fitness?) & tennis expenses.

    (& I would think that funds should be held to send the best of the best to represent the US & improve their game at International competitions.)

    Probably another 10-15 common sense items would need to be included as well. But big picture.....dump PD & send the funds to the kids to get the best training for the money & the family.
    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
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  14. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Isn't that the situation now ? $1M annually for a TV announcer acting as part time director ? Seriously, can it be worse ?

    There is a system in place to identify kids now, just give them a scholarships to an accredited academy of their choosing instead of a USTA academy. Means test it if you like, if parent got $$$ they have to pay some of it, if not they get a full ride.

    If the academies screw up or don't produce they lose their accreditation.
     
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  15. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    This whole discussion is basically turned into a pay junior tennis for play. Everyone is talking about how great a new system with money being widely distributed would be. What about the unintended consequences?
     
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  16. maggmaster

    maggmaster Hall of Fame

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    I think we would be better served by decreasing the amount spent on junior development and increasing the number of tournaments available to all age groups. If you look at tournament density in countries that produce great players, it is much higher in small countries that still have a lot of tournaments.
     
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  17. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I agree USTA HP has never really worked. Understand the checks and balances. But distributing the money from the USTA out, I could see a money grab. I.e. like federal grants, entitlements, etc. USTA will never let go. Mgmt shake would be a better start.

    I also agree the more national point tournaments need to be out there. Heck, why not all tournaments count for national points? Local less than sectional, etc.
     
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  18. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    A agree that HP has been a failure tennis wise. They seem to do pretty good job on fitness and strength training. Some juniors go just for that. I was at a presentation by top USTA strength and fitness coach. She went over in fine detail different muscle groups important for tennis. Showed pictures of Querry when they started with him. His weaknesses. Showed what they worked on for 6 months. Showed the after pictures. Big difference, especially in shoulder area. Maybe she snowed me. In the private sector not hard to get top tennis training. I think the physical and strength stuff much harder to get right. Lot of misinformation.
     
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  19. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    I wouldn't have a huge problem this.....BUT some kids don't need or want (or live near) an "approved" academy.

    They might use the dough to get 2 lessons a week from the 2012 equivilent to a Landsdorp, 3-4 days a week at a fitness center, a couple of drop in drills at the local college, entry fees into mens tournaments & travel expenses to National (or international) tournaments. (Since they might be playing every 3 out of 5 weekends).

    Again, i say send the kids the $$. If their "pathway" doesn't result in higher results as they age, it'll only cost them.

    But if they want to use every penny to offset a super academy expense....then that's OK too. If their "pathway" doesn't deliver, they start getting less $$ (or no money) .


    Oh.....& maybe save a few bucks to invest more funds for Futures Tour players (here in the States), so those following the dream have a little bit easier time of it. Heck.....send them Hampton/Fairfield or Subway vouchers.
     
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  20. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Coach, you can't be serious.

    Why did Taylor T. and Melanie O. blow up under them?
     
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  21. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    ^^^ is the biggest problem.

    We have good juniors, but once their out of the juniors, they disappear in the challengers and futures.

    Just not enough tournaments, money for them to reach ATP & WTA tour.
     
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  22. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    Like I said, maybe the USTA in their fitness presentation to HP parents made it sound a lot better than it really is. I can't say much about fitness because I don't know much. I do know that I played with Penn Marathon balls today and for the first 1/2 hour hit every other ball against the back fence. Boy are those light and fast. Not for guys like me who hit a gravity ball
    (need Earth's gravity to bring the ball down in the court).
     
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  23. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    2 Years Of Coaching, Conditioning, And Travel For Free:

    FRIDAY, OCTOBER 19, 2012
    USTA Releases Collarini

    http://tenniskalamazoo.blogspot.com/

    I received a brief statement from the USTA today regarding the announcement over the weekend
    that Andrea Collarini would return to representing Argentina after nearly three years playing under the US flag.

    "Andrea has asked that he be able to represent Argentina again.

    We will release him.

    We wish him all the best."

    I followed up with a question regarding any repayment of grants, etc. that Collarini received while training with the USTA

    and I was told he would not be required to provide any reimbursement,

    and the paperwork releasing him to Argentina is being sent to the ITF.

    End of Zoo article.
    ---------------------------


    Collarini words about life under Boca's USTA PD -
    ........the U.S.T.A. “pays me everything,
    meaning that they are now providing financial backing for his touring of the junior and pro circuit.

    So glad that he this young man who hid no fact where his loyalties lies gets to keep all that "pays me everything" $
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
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  24. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Coming to America article

    When I was reading more about Collarini, I came across this paragraph...

    http://www.tennis.com/tournaments/2010/06/coming-to-america/22678/#.UINgzY7EXGk

    It happened this year in the case of Sean Berman, who reached January’s Australian Open boys’ final. The USTA, which funded Berman for several years, declined to offer his immediate release when the South Africa-born Berman declared his intention to play for Australia. “We would not release him because we had given him direct financial support,” Curry (USTA spokesperson) said.

    How did this ever end with Berman, who was not American born, did the USTA recoup their money?
     
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  25. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    Don't know details about Berman. For Collarlini, I read somewhere that he was born in the US but grew up and trained in Argentina. Followed his coach, got invited to train at USTAPD.
    He most likely has a dual citizenship. If he was not selected for the USA Davis cup team, going back to play for Argentina will give him a chance to play that high level Davis cup ( instead of no chance here).
    If he is also American, how would you penalize him? Same thing like penalizing USTAPD kids who will go play college instead?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
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  26. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    I mean, who cares anymore. What's the difference if they throw money at American born or non-American born players. It's money down the toilet either way.
     
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  27. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    "Oh.....& maybe save a few bucks to invest more funds for Futures Tour players (here in the States), so those following the dream have a little bit easier time of it. Heck.....send them Hampton/Fairfield or Subway vouchers."

    USTA shouldn't give $ directly to parents for their kid's tennis training because you need a simpler system to monitor. Also, other kids to train with is critical.

    Support through vouchers to players ranked 300 to 1000 would be a huge help at the challenger qualifying level where trips are made weekly to different regions. These are the players directly trying to succeed and still paying to play professionally. They have proven that they can earn points but need the funding to travel weekly around the globe chasing challenger level qualies.
     
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  28. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Agree, plus need to increase prize money and sponsor more tournaments.
     
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  29. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Jesse Levine

    He was very decided during Wimbledon 2009 press conference while Canada issue was brought up, "USTA has taken me since the day I moved, and obviously been having some really good results, and they're behind me and backing me, helping me out with coaches and everything, and I can't ask for more."




    Guess he had a change of heart.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
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  30. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    At that point in his tennis (2009) that made complete sense to him. At this point in his career (2012) the opportunity to play for Canada and play Davis Cup for Canada makes sense to him. He understands the consequences. On the surface to many it may appear to be turncoat. They way I see it is an opportunity to alter for the better in Jessie's opinion a career that has a very short shelf life. If the USTA can't hold on to these guys too bad. They know what they are getting into when they take on a player with dual-citizenship. Jessie is a good player and kid, good luck to him.
     
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  31. db10s

    db10s Hall of Fame

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    They won't get fired..... It's a good ole boy club.....
     
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  32. 2ndServe

    2ndServe Professional

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    giving money based on rankings will result in failure. You've got kids chasing points, dodging people, NOT fixing their game which at their age has gaping holes. Why, because fixing your game takes months, years, learning the transition game, retooling serves, hitting bigger 2nd serves will result in double faults, taking more chances on 2nd serve returns/short balls/neutral balls all this will result in more errors. But that's the shots that are needed at the next level.

    You can't just punt it over with good topspin and expect to win at the highest levels but I still see this at the futures level. The only US guys who are making a dent in the pro game now are probably Ryan Harrison, Sock, Johnson and it's because they have huge serves with exceptional spin. Please read this guy he knows what he's talking about

    http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2008/04/informal-stroke-speed-survey-of-us.html

    http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2007/04/informal-serve-speed-survey-of-us.html

    Basically the top juniors and college players are giving up 20+ mph and that gives the other player too much time.


    I rarely ever see US guys on junior or futures tour with a big enough gun to consistently hold serve against pros. Then they get balls near the service line that they can't consistently punish against top level players (sure they can hit winners, force errors on me/you/lower level guys but not against the top 1% of 1%).

    If player development is to continue you need to seek out guys with live arms, who can hit huge serves, penetrating balls(forget about % and consistency you can learn/develop that, you can't go from being a consistent safe guy to having a live arm).
     
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  33. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    I dont know man, its easy to say that. But having been through the grind...I don't know if having money to play more tournaments would ever help someone whos ranked 800 get to be top 100.

    You either have it or you don't. Leandro Migani went from being unranked to being ranked top 300 this year....if you have the game, you will make it. If you don't, no amount of money flushed down the toilet in futures will ever help



    *been there*
     
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  34. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    In today's pro world players are playing against countries that are supplying coaches, physios, funding and a team atmosphere. A player out there without proper funding has no shot. When it is time to leave Futures and play primarily Challenger qualies, players have to travel to a new city every week, and it is very expensive. So, far too many players opt to stay at the Futures level where there in no chance of being a successul pro. Funding controls choices and choices can make or break a player even with the right game.
     
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  35. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    True. My understanding is at pro tournaments if you are from a particular country and your federation has coaches and physio's there and if you are from that country you can use them at any time. The USTA is the opposite if you are at a pro tournament and a US based player not part of PD you can not use the USTA resources.

    Where I see the problem with the pro tour is that the early rounds at the ATP level and prize money at the Challeger and Futures levels needs to be increased. You are right that many player lower in the ranking choose not to pursue the highest ranking they might acheive due to the funding it takes to get their while not making enough prize money along the way to sustain ones self. The futures level has not had a prize money increase in years. Not sure how long it's been but I know that's the case.

    In many team sports hundreds of nameless athletes make big money. In tennis if you're not in the top 150 in the world you probably lost money during the year. There's more money to go around and getting more at the early rounds and the lower circuit levels really should be addressed. I understand the Futures and Challeger levels should not be tours that fully self-sustain players, but a little more prize money to help these guys get by and give them a better shot should be addressed.
     
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  36. superfittennis

    superfittennis New User

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    You don't have a clue how little is spent on fitness.
     
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  37. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    ====================
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
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  38. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Understood and point taken, you've asserted this many times before. I'm not saying 150 is a good place to be financially for a pro tennis player to stay and banking money their is unlikely in today's world. But 150 is a rough estimate for a place to earn enough prize money and maintain a minimal self-sufficiency. Many factors determine the def. of tennis pro self-suffciency. How much travel and coaching was paid for etc. to get that ranking? Some players do it on a shoestring budget or have family members coaching. At 150 how much money you made in a year depends on how you got your ranking. Was it mostly in the Futures and Challengers? If so your earnings may be on the low side vs. a player who got their playing mostly challegers and tour stops. Doubles winnings is a factor. Did the player play any slams (bigger $$$), was he injured (less $$$) and did he play a full schedule, etc.?

    Jack Sock is the current number 150, made $163,009 in 2012. Look at the numbers 149 and 151 players and the earnings are much, much less, likely due to injury. Igor Kusnitsyn ranked 162 made $266,223 in 2012, btw Kusnitsyn travels on his own, no coach.

    Not being argumentative, 150 is just a rough number.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
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  39. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    Prize money is not going to increase at this level - just not enough sponsor and spectator money coming in - and certainly no TV audience for advertisers/sponsors. Let's face it - tennis is very different than popular team sports. People don't want to watch it in big enough numbers (outside of majors) and players are not taken care of by teams. Not a lot of ways to change the system as it is, unless the USTA somehow comes up with something similar to other federations. I don't see it happening.
     
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  40. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    That's the logical argument on the surface. That's the short term view. However if the ITF, ATP, USTA, etc. wants to grow the game long-term they will have to do something to address the underlying minor league tour system. I could go on and on why they need they need a healthy Future/Challenger system for the up and coming players to feed the Tour level events. The amount of dollars needed to fund those minor league tours is minor compared to the revenues generated by the ATP/WTA tours has to be fratiomal. If the basis for having Futures and Challenger tournaments with healthy prize money is profitable events funded by healthy fan attendance the pro game is doomed. Minor league systems typically are not money makers on most all levels. Comparing tennis to minor league baseball or other team sports is misguideded. Look at golf minor league tours may be a little closer to the model needed. Does the Nationwide and Hooters tours really make money from fan attendance? I don't know the actual answers but am willing to guess, no.

    Point is there's funds and means available to fund the lower level pro system. Until its perceived as a problem by those in charge, I agree with you and don't see much change coming anytime soon.
     
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