Another record for Court?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Steffi-forever, Oct 1, 2009.

  1. Steffi-forever

    Steffi-forever Semi-Pro

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    #1
  2. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    I guess it's a little unfair on the others because a good chunk of Court's career was before the open era. I mean if someone only played 1 match in the open era which they won, their winning percentage would be 100% but obviously it doesn't mean much. I thought the record belonged to Evert too, that must be for players who played exclusively in the open era.
     
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  3. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I think the OFFICIAL record is Evert's but Margaret Court probably won about 92% of her career matches and that's higher than Evert's 90%.

    Navratilova won OFFICIALLY the most tournaments with 167 I believe but Court is higher with around 190 to 200. Court's records are amazing.
     
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  4. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Court won the Grand Slam in 1970 during the Open Era and in female tennis they didn't have a regular pro circuit anyway so Court played all the top players, regardless whether it was the Open Era or not.

    In 1970 of course she won all four majors and in 1973 she won three of the four majors.
     
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  5. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    Ok good point. I do find it very hard to rank Court.
     
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  6. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    The record books state that Margaret Court is the greatest of all time.

    The American media will tell you that the greatest is Martina Navratilova. And even Martina herself will tell you she is. But she simply falls short to Margarete Court's record. Although she was very much a dominant player of her time.

    Margaret Court was the winner of 24 singles Grand Slam titles. 19 doubles Grand Slam titles, and 19 mixed doubles Grand Slam titles. She also won the calender year Grand Slam in 1970. With a total of 62 Grand Slam titles and a Calender Slam..

    She was also the year end No1, 7 times..

    To ad to that achievement. In a 14 year time span between 1960- 1973, she was able to win at least one of the 4 Grand Slams in 12 of the 14 years. Two of the Grand Slams twice, and 3 of the 4 Grand Slams 4 times, and then 4 of 4 Calender Grand Slam once in 1970. The other 2 years she didn't win purely because after Wimbledon of 1966 she retired and later returned in 1968. She did however in her return year make the final of the Australian Open, and was a quarter finalist at Wimbledon and the US Open.

    Some people have claimed that by winning the Australian Open 11 times against poor fields, her Grand Slam total is somewhat questionable. But without considering the fact she won the French Open 5 times, Wimbledon 3 times, and the US Open 5 times. Margaret Court proved that it was of no matter where she played. Or who she played against...

    For anyone that uses the weak Australian Open field as an excuse. I simply say this.

    "You can't win a tournament, if you dont show up?".

    It is for that reason I say that the American and European players have let themselves down in vyeing for what was a chance at setting the record books strait. The fact they didn't attend this Grand Slam event is of no fault to Margaret Court and her achievments. Her records will forever stand! And in all honesty, it is purely sour grapes and ignorance for anyone to use this reason as a means to belittling the achievments of a true Champion.


    For someone like Roger Federer to consider himself thankful to be in the company of legends past. The lack of humility and admiration for Margaret from Martina shows a tone of not only disrespect. But one of pure animosity. Something therefor that could be related to Margarets very public religious beliefs and feelings against homosexuality.

    The fact that I personally do not hold the same feelings and accept people as individuals, means that I therefor prefer to spend my time looking at the facts and figures of a players achievments and base my judgment on that.

    I also do not consider the every day tournaments played on the WTA as a guide either. Simply because the Womens tour of 40-50 years ago has changed so much. Even 20 years ago.. And so my opinions expressed are of those Grand Slam and Major records set in times gone by, and era's never to be seen again....
     
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  7. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    The greatest player ever is Steffi Graf. By the way Graf was the year end #1 8 times, more than anyone else in history.
     
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  8. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Says the guy with Graf in his user name ;)

    You replied so quickly, that I am sure you couldn't have even read what I wrote?
     
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  9. drwood

    drwood Hall of Fame

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    So by that logic (8>7), does that mean that Jankovic is better than Venus b/c she has more year-end #1s? Didn't think so.

    I personally think Graf has an edge, but its not as simple as number of year-end #1s.
     
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  10. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Graf was probably dominant for 5 full years. Not 15 like Court..
     
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  11. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Graf's year end #1s were all legit. She deserved everyone of them. The only one you can even question reasonably is 1994. Venus was the real #1 in both 2000 and 2001, regardless whether the computer acknowledge it or not. The real #1 of 2008 was Serena.
     
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  12. drwood

    drwood Hall of Fame

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    That's your opinion (which I agree with BTW), but we're talking about pure facts here.

    You're either year-end #1 or you aren't. Period. No excuses.

    Any player would take 2 slams over an additional year-end #1, BTW.
     
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  13. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    It is simply laughable to think Court was dominant for 15 years.

    1960 and 1961- heck no
    1962- yes
    1963- the definite #1 this year but not neccessarily dominant with only a quarterfinal loss at the French, and later Bueno outplaying her in an excellent U.S Open final
    1964- Bueno eclipsed her this year with her Wimbledon and U.S Open triumphs
    1965- yes
    1966- of course not, she lost semis of both the French and Wimbledon then took her first retirement
    1967- didnt even play
    1968- Court's comeback year, King was by far the queen this year
    1969 and 1970- yes
    1971- definitely not. lost early at the French, pounded by Goolagong in Wimbledon final, then took another temporary retirement
    1972- no, only returned for the U.S Open and lost in the semis
    1973- yes
    1974- didnt play
    1975-1977- not even close

    So she had 5, at most 6, "dominant" years. 1962, 1965, 1969, 1970, 1973, and maybe 1963. 15, ROTFL!!! Only on some alterior planet.

    Graf had alteast 5 dominant years too, and you could also argue a 6th for her too with 1987 since while she won only 1 slam she lost only 2 matches all year and won 12 tournaments which was triple the World #2 Navratilova who won 4.
     
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  14. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Let me guess. You looove Graf...

    Dude we get it already......

    But she's not the greatest in all honesty ;)
     
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  15. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    I agree that Court's homophobia shouldn't make a difference to her standing in tennis history but to villainise Martina is just wrong. When Martina won her 9th Wimbledon and made history, Court stated soon after that she was setting a bad example to other players as a lesbian woman. That was a spiteful and totally uncalled for thing to do especially seeing as the two of them had never really spoken to each other before, Court didn't even have the guts to say it to Martina's face and just went behind her back. You can't expect Martina to like Court or sing her praises after that.
     
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  16. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Graf and Evert both won each of the French, Wimbledon, and U.S Opens atleast 3 times too, and unlike Court each of Graf and Evert won 1 of them 7 times. If you take her Australian Open total down to 5 that would put her at 18 slams, same as Evert and Navratilova. Evert especialy lost out on additional slams since WTT took priority over the French Open from 76-78 and since she didnt play the Australian Open back when it was still seen as a not fully credited slam from 76-80. Navratilova only won 2 French Opens but lost out on 4 to Evert and Graf, the 2 greatest clay court players in history. She won 9 Wimbledons, triple what Court managed.
     
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  17. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Nearly everyone rates Graf or Navratilova as the greatest ever. That just isnt my opinion as a fan but pretty much a fact. You ask virtually every tennis expert, including even Australians, and they say Graf or Navratilova when asked the greatest female player ever and the other #2. Most even have Evert 3rd, and Court 4th.
     
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  18. navratilovafan

    navratilovafan Banned

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    Court made those comments at that time since she was jealous of Martina's achievement at a place she underachieved and had a very dissapointing record given that she too was a grass court specialist predominantly.
     
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  19. Steffi-forever

    Steffi-forever Semi-Pro

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    Like CEVERTFAN have said, Court, Evert, Navratilova and Graf could be call the greatest. It depends on how you look at their achievements. No?
     
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  20. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Exactly, all of them could be argued as GOAT, personally the top 2 are either Navratilova or Graf, but I could see any of them as GOAT. Usually all this debating about GOAT comes down to personal preference which sometimes turns into name calling when you don't agree with what someone else has to say. Yes some things some say are completely out there sometimes, but some are valid points that even if you don't like them should be respected.
     
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  21. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That's the way it should be.
    :)

    But you're right, any of those players can be logically argued at the GOAT.

    Suzanne Lenglen and Helen Wills are valid GOAT candidates too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2009
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  22. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Its tough for me to gauge Lenglen and Wills in the spectrum of the GOAT argument. I have ready alot about them, but having played so long ago its hard to truly figure out where they place. I always put them at a joint 5/6, although I usually put Wills higher because she won quite a few more slams. However in doing that I also realize that Lenglen's career was cut off first by WWI and then by her decision to try and earn some money by going professional. Also, the fact that they seemed so insanely beyond their competition skill wise adds to the mystique they have. the second best player of Lenglens times was probably Molla Mallory, and Lenglen demolished her in the 2 full matches they played. Wills dominated most of her competition except for Helen Hull Jacobs and Kitty Godfree. And even though the matches were close she almost always won. Pre WWII they are really the only standouts other than Dorothea Lambert Chambers and Lottie Dodd, so its just makes you wonder how good their competition really was. Were they truly phenominal or was their competition just well below par. Thats always the paradox I come to when thinking about them.
     
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  23. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Lenglen and Wills should almost be put into a different category. It is really almost impossible to determine if they are better or worse than Navratilova, Graf, Evert, and Court.
     
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  24. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Sorry. No matter how much you love your player. The stats simply dont ad up. As much as you want her to be considered the greatest. History states that an Australian by the name of Margaret Court-Smith is. You simply cant re-write the history books, no matter how you want to bend the truth, and misrepresent the facts..
     
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  25. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    And as much as you want to you will never convince everybody to agree with you. You simply cannot force everyone to agree with your conclusion.
     
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  26. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Don't need to..

    Facts are facts mate.. :)
     
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  27. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Each one of the 4 top women have facts in their corner that can be used to call them the GOAT. For instance its a fact that Court won the most Grand Slam singles titles, Its a fact Evert has the highest confirmable win % (Court has a variety of numbers out there to her name ranging from .88-.92), and its a fact she has the highest open era exclusive win percentage. Its a fact Graf is the only one of the 4 to win 4 of every major and its a fact that Martina has the most confirmable number of singles titles.

    Its a matter of opinion which facts you think are more important, therefore you cannot make everyone agree with your interpretation of all the facts that are out there. For instance you might say Court has 24 slams and that is a fact that is in her corner, while I would say yes thats true, but its also a fact that many of her Australians did not have comparable fields to the other slams every year and that when you compare the number of time she won there to the times she won elsewhere it would make sense to say she benefited from weaker fields at that particular tournament...see what I saying? I really cannot make it any clearer.
     
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  28. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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  29. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    I don't understand for the life of me my why some of you people post like you know something when you obviously don't?

    Court never made any comments about Martina "behind her back".. She made them publicly as part of her beliefs as a very public christian woman.

    I don't necessarily agree. Nor do I care. But if you are going to post something, then at least try and look like you know what you are talking about.. Instead of just burbling nonsense.......
     
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  30. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    Ha that's rich coming from you, Mr. 'I said Navratilova has no respect for Court and have just been proven wrong so am trying to act really smart to cover it up'. You suck big time. And yes Court made those comments publicly just after Navratilova made history just because she is a sad, spiteful person. But as I said before, her homophobia shouldn't make a difference to her tennis legacy, and it doesn't. Court is an all-time great but GRAF is the greatest and Navratilova is a close 2nd. You're not gonna make any friends around here with this holier than thou attitude you have, so clean it up. No one knows you or cares about you.
     
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  31. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Ha ha, I suck.. Showing your young age now...

    What am I trying to cover up? Navratilover's disrespect for Courts legacy? Oops, that's the second time I said it publicly now! (Real Area 51 stuff right there) :)

    Why do I keep saying that. Well, because Martina wants to be remembered as the greatest. So she tells everyone.. In fact, although I dissagree with Courts personal views on sexuality. I have never heard her talk an awful lot about her tennis career, nor being the greatest. But if you ask Navratilova, she doesn't even blink an eye..

    As for Graf being the greatest. Then sorry. Top 3 or 4.. You guys only put her there because she is probably the only one you were old enough to see...
     
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  32. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    Not that it matters, but do you have any examples of Navratilova's 'disrespect' for Court's legacy?
    Why should it make a difference if Martina considers herself the greatest or not? If Court's homophobia shouldn't affect our perception of her then surely a little arrogance from Martina should also be given a pass? Any examples of Martina saying these things would be good too, again not that it matters.
    And ranking Graf 'top 4' is ridiculous.
     
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  33. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Oh I see, this is the part where I bite back and we get into a non ending dick measuring contest.. Sorry dude. I said what I said, not because I want to be right. I look at fact, stats, and the history of a player..

    As for Navratilover being disrespectful. Just look at any interview where she is asked if she is the greatest. As I said, she doesn't even batter and eye lid. A modest person would say. "Well maybe, but Court was a great player also, and we are pretty even to some extent".. But nup....

    Now if you don't mind, there are more imprtant things in the world to discuss.....
     
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  34. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    Umm ok dodge all my questions then. Are you Australian by any chance?
    Btw I look at facts and stats too and Graf is clearly the GOAT.
    You are just annoying tbh, at least Julesb was funny. Selestard > Courttard.
    COME BACK JULES.
     
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  35. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Huh? So you want a link or something?

    Well go to the Tennis Channel site, and go to video archives. You will see Navratilover talking about herself.. Will that make you happy. Or will I have to find every piece written in the last 30 years to make you happy?

    As to being Australian, then yes.. I take it you are from England and so I understand your attitude.. It must suck to be you...

    As for being any ****, then I don't spend much time in this part of the board, so don't know why you are even putting me into a group I don't even know?

    I do however feel that you love it in this section. It might explain why you are being such a wanker.....
     
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  36. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    LOL right I'm a 'wanker', says the guy who keeps referring to Navratilova as 'Navratilover'. What is worse, being arrogant or being a raging homophobe? Clearly the latter. So why don't you give Court a nickname too? At least 'Navratilover' is a nice person as can be seen by her extensive charity work. Court does what exactly? Preaching hatred in her little church. Score.
    You have every right to believe that Court is the greatest but trying to patronise others by telling them they are flat-out wrong for believing otherwise is just silly. And then criticising Navratilova but letting Court go without any flack for her behaviour?
    And finally, you say Navratilova could say "Well maybe, but Court was a great player also, and we are pretty even to some extent".., perhaps Court could've said 'Well I disapprove of her being a lesbian but she's just made a huge achievement in tennis and I respect that'. If there is a villain here, it is Court, plain and simple. But these things should NOT make a difference to their legacies so you can't have it both ways. If you think Court is better than Navratilova, that in itself is a strong enough argument without resorting to petty insults against Navratilova.
     
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  37. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    No, it isn't. From the time Margaret Court played her first full year on tour until she played her last full year on tour (73) she was the best player in the world.

    The simplest test of Graf vs Court is mixed doubles. Remove the ability to hit through a second-class female opponent and you can see how incredibly one-dimensional a player is/was. In this case, Graf fails miserably. Court, on the other hand (same was true of Navratilova, but to a lesser extent), was able to play the best men in the world (at a time when the best did play mixed) and dominate, despite never playing with the very best male singles or doubles player (apart from one time partnering Fred Stolle).

    Best player in the game's history has never been Graf or Seles (or Evert, if you like a laugh). It's always been Margaret Court followed by daylight then either Navratilova or Connolly.
     
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  38. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    I think it's become accepted as part of the GOAT debate that it only means singles. If doubles are taken into account too then obviously Court and Navratilova are above Graf. However, doubles are nowhere near as important as singles (like it or not, it's true), and if they were then Graf would've played them. The fact that she opted not to play much doubles shouldn't go against her.
     
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  39. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    See this is where I lose all interest in discussing this with you.. You simply move the goal posts in order to enhance your own argument. Although I don't like the Williams sisters. Their achievments in doubles will help them get up there with the best also..

    Of course a persons doubles and mixed doubles achievements should be considered in the grand scheme of things. Unless of course you are going to tell me that doubles and mixed is a completely different sport?

    Although I have said that Graf and Martina are great players. The stats say Court was better in all honesty. And history simply doesn't lie... Andrew is right in what he has stated..

    As for calling me out for a spelling mistake. Then that is just simply childish. A sign of a lack of imagination.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2009
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  40. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Really? So she was the best player in the World as early as 1961 when she won the Australian Open in its typically depleted field than lost in the quarters of the years other 3 slams- French Open, Wimbledon, and U.S Open.

    She was the best player in the World in 1964 when Bueno ended the year having won the last 2 U.S Opens, that years Wimbledon, and beating Court in the finals of 2 of those 3?

    She was the best player in the World in 1966 when she lost at both the French and Wimbledon and then took her first retirement not even finishing the year? By the way Billie Jean King who trounced her in the Wimbledon semis went on to win the U.S Open that year as well.

    She was the best player in the World in 1968 when she was trounced by King in the Australian Open final and lost in the quarters of both Wimbledon and the U.S Open?

    She was the best player in the World in 1971 when after falling early at the French, she was crushed by Goolagong in the Wimbledon final, then like 1966 did not even finish the year due to another temporary leave from the game?

    She was the best player in the World in 1967 and 1972 when she missed the entire or most of the year?

    Wow it is nice to know you can be the best in the World at all points in time of an entire long time frame yet not actually have to keep proving it on the court. We might as well name Graf the best from 1986 to 1999 even though she really wasnt always, Evert from all of 1973 to 1986 even though she really wasnt always, or Navratilova from 1975 to 1990 even though she really wasnt always.

    So now mixed doubles, not even same gender doubles, but MIXED doubles, is the greatest test to a players greatness. :lol: Now I have heard it all. Mary Carillo > Steffi Graf.

    It must really pain you that most people rate Evert on par or above Court as the #3 womens player of all time (and yes I know full well Seles is largely a sad what if case, and is not in the top 5 players of all time).

    Are you from Australia by any chance?
     
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  41. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    GrafSelesfan, After reading this diatribe, I simply had to respond..

    You obviously know your way around google.. But in saying that, you obviously have the same desire as any other "fanatic" to simply just pick and choose what you want in order to make your argument seem credible.

    Andrew I assume was being broad in his statements in regards to Court. She was dominant for the time she played. But in saying that, so is Roger, but even he loses some, as we have seen at the US Open recently.. I will also state that the women's field of Courts day were a little stronger than that of the men's today in all honesty..

    But I commend you for just picking through Court's career and just finding a loss here and there and centering your argument around it. By god. She never won every single match she played??

    As for your Australian Open comment. Let me just be very clear about one thing in regards to that.. The Australian Open at the time Court won all of her 11 was open to all and sundry that wanted to play it. The fact that Americans and Europeans chose not to is of no fault of Courts. In fact who says that the fields would have been any better if the internationals had of been there or not? Maybe the weak Australian players scared them off from coming? The fact is that you can't win something if you don't show up. So I say fool those players for not making the effort. And good on Margaret for supporting her sport, and supporting her home Grand Slam... For that effort, the history books will forever show that she did infact turn up to play. And that she did in fact win.. 11 of those suckers!!

    To say that she played weak fields. Then by winning all slams on multiple occasions suggests that it wouldn't have mattered who she played.. She could win anywhere, against anyone. Period...

    Now we can argue about the GOAT all day. But lets be sure that we understand that Steffi Graf is not it...
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2009
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  42. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    I did not just pick a loss here or a less there. If I did that I would have mentioned only 1970, the only year she won the Calender Slam (and even that year she took a straight sets loss to 15 year old Chris Evert in their first ever meeting). She was indeed the dominant player for atleast 5 years of her career, just as Graf and Navratilova and other greats were. I pointed out many specific years where another competitor won more slams than she did (even counting her annual coronations at the often sparsely attended Australian Open), was beaten her handily in major semis or finals by that same main competitor that year, and in some cases when she only even played half or none of the year. She was most certainly not the best player in the World for even the entire 12 year span from 1961 to 1973, atleast half of that she was not for the reasons listed, let alone the fictional 15 years you referred to. Even AndrewD through all his Court worshipping is conceding Court did not even play 15 full years on tour, yet you were saying she was the dominant player for 15 years, LOL!
     
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  43. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Can you quote me even a single tennis expert who rates Court over either Graf or Navratilova. Even an Australian. I am really curious, as I have not yet heard one.
     
    #43
  44. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Ok, name me "one" tennis expert then?

    How do you define "expert"?

    Does an "expert" have an "expert" opinion, as to compared to say someone like me. Or you?

    What makes an "expert"?

    Sorry mate. I look at the stats and the results.. They don't lie. And you cant change them and History to suit your argument. Just because you like someone better...

    lol...
     
    #44
  45. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    Pot. Kettle. Black.
    Doubles are nice if you like doubles but they are NOT relevant in the greatest of all time debate. As I said, if you want to debate who is the greatest ever including doubles then Court is obviously above Graf. But the standard GOAT debate is singles only and everyone knows it. As I said, if doubles mattered anywhere near as much as singles then Graf would've played. This is primarily a singles sport and everyone knows it.
     
    #45
  46. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Is that right. Says who?


    Again. Says who?

    But she didn't. So your argument sucks..


    Again. Says who? You?
     
    #46
  47. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    Snore. I'll let you get back to your Court shrine now. She is not the greatest and never will be. Btw I didn't think you spelling it 'Navratilover' was a spelling mistake, I thought you meant NavratiLOVER because you say she loves herself.
     
    #47
  48. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Fred Stolle said on air while covering the womens tournament for ESPN that the greatest female player ever is either Graf or Navratilova. John Newcombe when asked said the same thing. Even Australians dont think Court is the greatest ever, LOL!
     
    #48
  49. Darth_Timmaayyy!!

    Darth_Timmaayyy!! Banned

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    Proof?...................................
     
    #49
  50. lambielspins

    lambielspins Banned

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    I am pretty sure I know who this Darth is. It is the infamous Chris_In_Japan who has been banned about 200 times, making yet another retun.
     
    #50

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