Another self-rating question

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by SB, Apr 13, 2007.

  1. SB

    SB Rookie

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    I have a player on my 4.5 team who has self-rated at 3.5. Background: player was a 4.5 about 5 years ago, had some chronic injuries, and had to quit. She feels better, so she started hitting again a couple of months ago.

    (Now, I don't know why she rated herself at 3.5, so don't ask me. :) What's done is done.)

    She decided to play leagues again; she is definitely better than 3.5, but all the 4.0 teams at our club were full. The 4.5 team was a little short of people, so we took her. It's a bit of a strange situation, but she was on the team 5+ years ago, and she is definitely a 4.5 player based on strokes and past experience; just really rusty.

    So far, so good. She probably won't win a lot at first, but that's okay. What I'm worried about is that I noticed she's also on an 8.0 mixed team.

    Since she is playing two levels up during the USTA season and is a self-rated player, if she holds her own at all in the 4.5 matches, isn't she at risk to be moved up to 4.0 pretty quickly, even mid-season? And if that happens, won't it DQ her for any matches she plays with a 4.5 guy in 8.0 mixed?

    I might be misunderstanding how this all works -- probably I am, since all this DNTRP is pretty muddy. But I was wondering if anyone had any experience or advice.
     
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  2. mctennis

    mctennis Hall of Fame

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    You can play up in a league but can't play down in a league. In other words she can play in a 4.5 if she is a 4.0 but should not play in a 3.5 league. She has to be rated by a pro to establish her rating then be placed. If the league did that to her ( put her in a lower league) then that's on them. If she put herself in a lower league the other team can make a protest and win.
     
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  3. tennis-n-sc

    tennis-n-sc Professional

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    Pros no longer rate for USTA. We had a similar situation not long ago where a girl at our club self-rated at 3.0 on the advise of the club pro. She played 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0 and after two seasons was computer rated to present rating of 4.0, which is where she should be. I think you are ok and I wouildn't worry about the mixed, nothing counts for much and very little rating protests ever take place.
     
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  4. Mark Jensen

    Mark Jensen New User

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    So your 3.5 player is playing in an Adult4.5 and a 8.0 Mixed concurrently?
    Interesting, what section are you playing in?

    Here's what I think I know about Self-Raters and dNTRP.
    She will have to play 4 matches before she starts generating a dNTRP. After the 4th match, her current dNTRP will be averaged just like a Computer-Rater (do a search for dynamic NTRP for some interesting threads/posts).

    Points to consider:
    • as a "Selfer", if at anytime she wollops an opponent and the match is considered "non-competitive" (maybe losing less than 4 games)...it's considered a strike. Accrue 3 strikes and your bumped to the next NTRP level. In some sections the player defaults ALL matches previously played in the league, in other, less severe, sections it's just the last match defaulted. In most cases, this would mean she's also off the team, but in this case she still can play on your 4.5 but now as a 4.0. Very interesting. (You could argue, that because she's playing up so dramatically, that none of her matches should defaulted to 0-6, 0-6 ;) ).

    • as her dNTRP changes (after she gets past 4 matches) and she is winning and it's going up, she will approach going over the 3.49 cut off point to the next level (the 4.0 NTRP actually falls between 3.5-3.99). If she generates a dNTRP above 3.49 3 times...it's 3 strikes and she's bumped up to 4.0. Again, with the same consequences as in point 1.

    • something else that get's mentioned (but I'm not clear about) is that if the dNTRP between opponents (their PRD or Player Rating Differential) is pretty wide (more that 0.3?) the match doesn't get into the dNTRP algorithm at alll. It's essentailly thrown out. She could run into this quite often given that she's a "3.5" in a 4.5 world.

    • another issue, if she gets bumped midseason and she's playing in more than one league (in this case Adult and Mixed, or in other cases two Adult...maybe 3.5 and 4.0, etc.)...it is only in the league that the 3rd strike occurred that will result in defaulted match reversals. The other leagues she's participating in are safe.

    I hope I got this all right, everyone.
    Correct me if I'm wrong :)
    (but please don't bash, I'm very sensitive ;) )
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2007
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  5. cak

    cak Professional

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    A bit of clarification on a "strike". You don't get a strike beating someone 6-0, 6-0 if the computer thinks you are supposed to beat them 0 and 0. So the computer expects some games to be non-competitive. They only way to get a strike is to play better than the computer thinks you should be playing against someone, by alot. Internally, the DNTRP for a 3.5 person has to hit 3.8 (which is a high 4.0 player) not be just above 3.5. (which would be a weak 4.0 player).
     
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  6. SB

    SB Rookie

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    This is what I'm concerned about. If she plays solid 4.5s to 6-4 6-3 losses, what will that do to the 3.5 rating? It wouldn't do too much to a 4.0 rating, I don't think, but it seems it would move the 3.5 rating up to 4.0.
     
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  7. SB

    SB Rookie

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    Intermountain.

    This is really what I'm curious about. If she is bumped to 4.0, it doesn't bother the 4.5 league, obviously. As long as it doesn't DQ the mixed matches she already played, then she can just start playing with a 4.0 partner, and all is well?

    I guess I should call my Section office and ask what the rules are.
     
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  8. Mark Jensen

    Mark Jensen New User

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    Well, not exactly.

    I had a 3.0 self rated player last year who after 5 matches in the Adult league was bumped up to 3.5. His 5 matches were overturned, he could not continue on my team, & he couldn't find a 3.5 team to finish out the season. It sucked all over. So I've been trying to educate myself since. (Not to be the captain "protecting" his self-raters...just to be informed :smile: )

    He did not get his 3 strikes from the gradual averaging of dNTRP as a Computer-rated player would. Three "non-competitive" matches did it.
    His scores were:
    (6-4, 6-1)
    (6-0, 6-1) strike 1
    (6-1, 6-2) strike 2
    (6-4, 6-2)
    (6-3, 6-1) strike 3...you're out

    So we all then got "the letter"...
    Congratulations! You have been playing tennis so well and have been so successful in USTA League play this season; you have been promoted to a 3.5 rating. Below is the technical information you and your 3.0 captains need to know.

    During USA League Tennis (Adult and Senior Divisions) local league competition and at every level of championship competition below national championships, computer ratings are calculated for all players to determine if any players have reached the disqualification criteria using the USTA NTRP Computer Rating System Procedures. Players are disqualified if they reach the disqualification level three times based on all Adult and Senior Division matches reported in the national database.

    Your match results to date have resulted in three computer ratings at the disqualification level for the 3.0 level. Beginning today, you must now participate at the 3.5 level (or higher) in USA League Tennis (Adult, Senior, Mixed Doubles, Super Seniors), BMW Combo Doubles, and/or USTA sanctioned NTRP Tournaments.


    But back to topic...
    If this 3.5 player gets bumped midseason it will:

    1. DQ some if not all of her league matches (SB, could you check on this, I've looked at the Intermountain section site and can't find your sectional rules).
    2. These DQs will only apply to the league where she received the 3rd strike (Adult or Mixed but not both).
    3. She will continue to play in both the Adult 4.5 and 8.0 Mixed leagues.
    4. Her doubles partners will no longer be up to 4.5 (only 4.0)

    I think that's all true?

    -M
     
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  9. SB

    SB Rookie

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    Almost. I just talked to someone on the phone, and if I understand it correctly (always sketchy in NTRP subjects!!):

    1. and 2. She would DQ only her mixed matches that she played with a 4.5 guy. There is no penalty for playing 4.5 matches if you are "really" a 4.0, but there is a penalty for playing 8.0 matches with a 4.5 if you are a 4.0. If she plays 8.0 matches with a 4.0, then she is okay.

    3. Correct.

    4. Correct.

    Guy I talked to said this scenario is possible but not likely because it's the noncompetitive matches that are the strikes, NOT the DNTRP (which is only done in November or whenever it all ends). So she wouldn't likely be beating 4.5s by lopsided scores at this point.

    That's what I didn't understand correctly ... even if her DNTRP inches up, it doesn't mean strikes. They are two different things. (The light bulb came on!)

    So I think that what this means, as well, is that she shouldn't play any 3.5 matches, because that's where she would be more likely to clobber people and thus receive strikes.
     
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  10. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    My 3.0 team last year had a player strike out who hadn't even played a match yet. He was also playing on a 3.5 team as well and was Dq'd at the 3.0 level based on that record alone. No complaints from me - he belonged at 3.5.

    Based on this, though, I believe that your player can get bumped mid-season from 3.5 to 4.0 based simply on losing competetive matches at 4.5.
     
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  11. SB

    SB Rookie

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    What was his record at the 3.5 level? From what I understand talking to the league director, the "strike" scores are what kick out of the computer, not the DNTRP. And if there are no lopsided wins at 4.5 (which there won't be -- definitely not three of them), then it won't be a problem.

    She might be losing close matches, and her DNTRP will be moving up -- it could move all the way to 5.0, theoretically -- but unless there are "strikes," the computer won't notice her until fall.

    Mixed is played before USTA Adult, so it shouldn't be a problem unless we go to playoffs, and I don't think that will happen anyway. I think it's only about a 1% chance that there will be an issue. ie, theoretically possible but almost totally realistically impossible.
     
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  12. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    They wouldn't need to be lopsided at 4.5 to create dynamic ratings above 3.8. These wouldn't be strikes at 4.5, but they would be at 3.5.
     
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  13. SB

    SB Rookie

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    Back up a step ... I don't think the computer kicks out non-lopsided scores during the season. THAT is the difference. If the calibration is to find a score where the losing player wins four games or fewer, for example, a close score won't kick out.
     
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  14. cak

    cak Professional

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    http://www.shively.net/howNTRPisCalculated.pdf

    I don't know where you are getting the lopsided score requirement. In the above, strikes are explained under disqualification.
     
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  15. SB

    SB Rookie

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    "Lopsided score" is a bit of a substitute for "clearly above level." The guide says that each time a player's dynamic rating exceeds the maximum tolerance for the level, the player earns a strike. It also says that the USTA does not disclose the exact value of "clearly above level," and that it's different by level.

    What I understood from my conversation today is that the strikes come relative to the level being played, not the level of the player. So if you're playing above your own level, no one cares unless your scores are coming in above the level you are actually playing.

    So if my 3.5 is beating 4.5s by scores of 6-2 6-0, it might kick out. But if she is playing 7-5 5-7 7-5 matches, then she is okay. At the end of the year, however, her NTRP will go up.

    If the 3.5 is beating other 3.5s by the 6-2 6-0 scores, then she will get strikes.

    Does that make sense?
     
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  16. cak

    cak Professional

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    The way it was explained to me was if you were rated 3.5, and your DNTRP hit 3.8 (or whatever the overage is, it seems to change from year to year, and differs between adults and seniors) the computer flags it as one strike. If after the next match you again register 3.8 you get a second strike. If the next two matches drop you a little, then the another match you hit 3.8 or above again you get your third strike. It doesn't matter what the scores were that got you their, competitive losses in 4.5 or bagels in 3.5, the computer will still kick you out. If you happen not to be playing 3.5, only 4.5, the letter saying "Congratulations, you've been bumped mid season" won't say your 3.5 scores are reversed, since you aren't playing 3.5. I've seen case where people playing up have been bumped, and for the lower level, which they now exceeded, all matches were defaulted, but in the upper league they were not. I have also seen a player rate very low, and play only in a league up 2 (I think she also rated 3.5, and played in a 4.5 league.) She was bumped mid season to 4.0, and at the end of the season to 4.5. No match scores were affected, as she was never playing below level. I have also seen cases of folks getting bumped in the fall in senior league while also playing in mixed leagues. In mixed they now have to play with their new rating, but old match scores were not affected. Regions may do it differently, but I think they are all more lenient with mixed, as National does not give strikes in mixed leagues.
     
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  17. SB

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    That's what I originally thought, too, and that's why I was concerned, but that's not what I was just told. Frankly, I don't know which to believe.
     
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  18. Mark Jensen

    Mark Jensen New User

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    TWO ways to get strikes

    SB, don't be confused.
    There are TWO ways to get strikes.
    One way affects Self-rated players (S) and one way affects Computer-rated players (C).

    Strikes for Self-rated players (S):
    Occur when the win by the Selfer' is a blow-out or "non-competitive". I believe this is when the loser wins less than 4 games in the match.
    If a Selfer' accrues 3 strikes (3 blow-outs) he/she is then DQ'd and bumped to the next NTRP level with all the ramifications to his/her league scores and to his/her future league play.

    Strikes for Computer-rated players (C):
    Occur when a win by a Comper' (C) pushes their dNTRP over the threshold for the next NTRP level. It has been suggested that these thresholds are different for different levels (and for Seniors) and we might expect them to be around 0.3.
    So a threshold for a 3.5 player (who will have a dNTRP between 3.0 - 3.49) may be ~3.8.
    If a Comper' (C) goes above the threshold 3 times in a year (could be from an Adult, Senior, or Mixed league, or in some Sections a Tourney') the 3rd strike results in them being bumped up to the next level.

    Caveats:
    A non-competitive (S) vs. (S) match does not count towards eithers strikes (but may count towards their indiv. dNTRP rating depending on how many matches they have played previously).

    In a match between a (C) and a (S), the results will not be counted toward the (C)'s dNTRP but may be used to calculate the (S)s.
    This may or may not be completely accurate....we need more information

    Also, and this is unkown to me, when a (S) blows out a (C) player who is clearly above the (S)'s level (ex. a 3.5S wollops a 4.5C) is this match thrown out of dNTRP calculations? Is it used as a strike in the first sense against the (S)? Unknown.

    Anyway, this is how I see it...more of an approximation of the truth than anything else. Gosh, the parallels between the unknown universe and our gradual understanding of it through science and the unknown workings of the USTA and our gradual understanding of it through TT..it's wild man, wild! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
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  19. Raiden.Kaminari

    Raiden.Kaminari Semi-Pro

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    A match between a (C) and a (S) will affect the (C)'s rating if the (S) has already established a baseline rating by playing at least three matches against computer rated opponents.

    When a (S) blows out a (C), warning flags are raised pretty quickly. It can result in a reset of the (S) baseline rating to the differential score with the higher NTRP (C).
     
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  20. Mark Jensen

    Mark Jensen New User

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    Ok, we have slightly different views/information here. But I respect your thoughts and am coming around to your way of thinking.
    It makes more sense than a (S) never affecting a (C)s dNTRP. Now, if only this mirrors the USTA's thinking, we'll all be on board. :)

    This is interesting, but I have to admit, I don't understand what your saying.
    Could you elaborate on the second sentence? What is the baseline rating you're talking of? Is it the players dNTRP before the match? Is it their NTRP level?
    And it resets to the differential score (do you mean the (C) player's PRD? The match CRD? The RDD?):confused:
    Could you give us a hypothetical for an example?

    Thanks Raiden', I appreciate your expertise.:)
     
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  21. Raiden.Kaminari

    Raiden.Kaminari Semi-Pro

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    Trust me ... this is how the DNTRP operates. It's also why (C)s can get a strike after devastating a (S) who generated a high baseline rating.

    I'll use the scores you posted for the self-rated 3.0 player. I don't know who he played against, but I can approximate. The stuff posted at http://www.shively.net/howNTRPisCalculated.pdf is pretty close to the real algorithm, although it's changed last year to include new numbers for matches between players older than 50, and players younger than 50.

    (6-4, 6-1) RD .21
    (6-0, 6-1) RD .325 *Above 3.20
    (6-1, 6-2) RD .265 *Above 3.20
    (6-4, 6-2) RD .18
    (6-3, 6-1) RD .24 *Above 3.20

    By the third match, at 3.0, his average baseline rating was most likely 3.11 to 3.19, depending on how low the DNTRP of his first opponent was.

    The second and third match is what sent his DNTRP to above 3.10 levels.

    Now, say for example, instead of playing only 3.0, he had also played 4.0 for his second match. The average baseline rating would get moved up very fast, nearly a reset, for just one match.

    Anyway, what I've said is based on the DNTRP reports I've received related to self-rating grievances.
     
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  22. Mark Jensen

    Mark Jensen New User

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    ^^^makes a lot of sense

    Thanks Raiden'
    That dNTRP calculations seems to fit. Hard to tell w/out the opponent's dNTRPs.

    Was I wrong to think that the 3 "non-competitive" scores were the sole reason for the strikes?
    Was it indeed strictly a dNTRP calculation and hitting the threshold 3 times?
    And the threshold in this case being 0.20?

    I feel like I'm getting a better handle on this with your help.
    I appreciate it.
     
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  23. Raiden.Kaminari

    Raiden.Kaminari Semi-Pro

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    Yes, you were incorrect to assume the non-competitive scores were the sole reason for the strikes. What caused the strikes in this case was that his initial baseline rating (established by the first match). He was so high that any additional matches kept pushing him near/above the threshold of being disqualified.
     
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  24. Raiden.Kaminari

    Raiden.Kaminari Semi-Pro

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    One more thing ... .20 was for last adult season. They may have adjusted it downward to .15. A few years ago, the threshold was too high at .30 ... hardly anyone got disqualified.
     
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