Another Wegner tip...

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Pet, Oct 5, 2010.

  1. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    I would be shocked if you could provide me with one piece of evidence that Pat McEnroe or any of the other coaches advocate pulling your weight back on rally shots.

    I really don't see how this is my word against Wegner's. Every pro I've ever talked to has advocated getting your weight into the shot. Look at the FYB forehand videos. You can actually SEE the pro's weight shifting forward. You can literally see them load up on their back foot and transfer it to the front foot.

    Do me a favor and explain what you think the concept of the video is (and I'm not being a wise guy). I want to make sure that what I'm arguing against is really the thesis of the video. From what I saw, he's saying that rather than shifting my weight into a forehand shot, I should pull it back. Just seems to me like that's a recipe for "arming" the shot.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
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  2. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    This is a matter I am very open to, however, the video poorly presents the concept of "pulling back." Whatever one wants to call it.

    Angular momentum or torque is has taken over mens pro tennis and will do so more. With the large bodily rotation they are creating large amounts of momentum that has to go somewhere. An issue is with the increased speed of the ball players are having to recover back at ever increasing speeds. So, to take that post hitting momentum and use it to recover the body position on the court is something interesting.

    -SF
     
    #52
  3. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Exactly the point I made before. The game changes and male players need to generate power yet recover their baseline position quickly. We teach boys today trying to guess where the game will be in 10 years or more. So most top coaches teach what is shown in that video in some form.

    Every sport changes. A great NBA shooter today has to get his shot off much faster than 25 years ago as defenders are faster. Hence the quick release has evolved over that time frame.
     
    #53
  4. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Well since I have lived the past 2 weeks at the Courtside Villas while we choose our house and have attended about 8 practice sessions for USTA high performance at Evert's next door, a program headed by Pat Mac.....I can tell you the elite junior boys are being taught the method in that video to enhance their recovery while maintaining as much power as possible. Elite junior males are being taught to be very lateral in their movements with their ground strokes where as 15 years ago by comparison they would end up a few feet inside the baseline and shuffle back.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
    #54
  5. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    No offense, but I would need some actual proof, not just your word. I'm not calling you a liar, but this is anonymous so just a poster's claims don't equate to proof.

    Also, you're saying they teach lateral movement but Wegner was advocation pulling your weight backwards. I don't know enough about the system to say that proves anything, but it is a discrepancy.

    I really just can't imagine weight transfer into the shot ever going away.
     
    #55
  6. Dreamer

    Dreamer Professional

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    I spoke about Federer because that was the video link provided to try and draw similarity. However I recognize the stroke shown as a dynamic recovery shot. And really Fed is very well balanced through out while the kid was unbalanced on the wrong foot.
    That being said I'm willing to listen to the merits of the technique from anyone who can explain them. In fact wegner explains it as observations from Fed/Nadal, yet I am skeptical because I just don't see it. It is very true that Fed Nadal are very unique in their use of angular momentum, I don't believe shifting your body away or to the side of the ball is the correct instruction.
    You shouldn't accept instruction because the kids shot that "looks" good nor because a "elite junior" is being taught that way. It's great that this was posted here and we can talk about pros/cons. You are very welcome to explain why this instruction is good even when it breaks your axis, moves your head, and leaves you imbalanced on the opposite foot.
     
    #56
  7. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Awesome points. So many other basic fundamentals are broken just because of this new weight transfer.
     
    #57
  8. spacediver

    spacediver Hall of Fame

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    He wasn't saying that the racquet head would approach the speed of sound.

    He was talking about using the principles of a whip to generate speed on the stroke.

    The tip of a whip does, in fact, break the speed of sound, which is why you hear that crack (a sonic boom).
     
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  9. MrFonzi

    MrFonzi New User

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    Quoted word for word:

    "The modern game is evolving in another way and that's where you see the Federers and Nadals, and what they are doing is they are going in linear momentum towards the ball and when they are making contact they are pulling backward...(inaudible words).... they are pulling towards the back fence"

    So they hit the ball then break their swing path and pull back? Not completely sure how to interpret this sentence.

    "Some players are going directly towards the back"

    "You are much more accurate, you don't depend on timing so much, the only important thing in this timing is to start pulling across (I thought we had to pull backwards :oops: ) right as you make contact with the ball"

    "It dips really quickly, yeah its like the whip effect, imagine a whip breaks the speed of sound."

    I'm not too sure of the relationship between topspin and the kinetic chain???

    To me Oscar does not come across as someone with the depth of knowledge required to apply biomechanical analysis to tennis. There are plenty of videos on the web out there which show Oscar coaching and I am yet to see anything ground breaking from the viewing.
     
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  10. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Speed of sound

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound provides a number for a speed of sound
    768 miles/hour
    Do u still claim that a tip of a whip exceeds this pace?
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
    #60
  11. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    #61
  12. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Wenger's explanation to me is, to put it diplomatically, hogwash. But, you're assessment of the technique demonstrated in the video is interesting. So, now that I've painstakingly converted my classic, closed stance, Eastern forehand (that I learned in the stone age), to an open stance WW forehand (a work in progress really), now I have to learn to jump back to the middle of the court as I swing.

    But, how would this work with an inside out forehand? If I run around a ball that's half way between the center line and the left sideline to hit an inside out forehand, and I jump to the left as demonstrated in the video, aren't I putting myself all the more out of position?
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
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  13. DavaiMarat

    DavaiMarat Professional

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    True. I respect Wegner and the way he tries to take classic instruction and turn it's on it's head. Some people are just chomping on the bit to find something the slam yet they don't want to look at tennis any other way but their narrow scope.

    Remember, people laughed at Darwin too.

    Stop trying so hard not to learn....or at least try to see things in a different way.

    If you studied and played tennis for as long as I have you'd recognize what the kid is actually hitting a the finish of a reverse pivot forehand.
     
    #63
  14. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    No, they didn't.
    Stop making things up.
     
    #64
  15. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    There is not "hate" or "discontent",,,, it is more amusement ove rthe idea that this guy and his disciple call him the "father of the modern game",,, when facts are, that most of what he teaches has been taught for well over 30+ years, and some of the other stuff he advocates is hogwash.

    I'm still waiting to see this racquet he claims has a sweet spot the size of the entire string bed, and also waiting for evidence to back up his claim that pros purposely hit below this spot to maximize spin. LMAO
     
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  16. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Also from Wiki-

    Sound barrier

    Some common whips such as the bullwhip or sparewhip are able to move faster than sound: the tip of the whip breaks the sound barrier and causes a sharp crack—literally a sonic boom.
     
    #66
  17. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    First off, the vid is not about the insideout Fh, so I'm not going to move to that in this thread If I can help it.

    Second, I don't remember it said you have to "jump" back to the center, but the idea is incorporate the recovery into the follow thru for senergy and effeciency.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
    #67
  18. spacediver

    spacediver Hall of Fame

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    #68
  19. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    There are people who still laugh at, flagrantly dismiss Darwin to this day.

    -SF
     
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  20. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    So, your assuming that because the kid (player in the initial video) is on his left foot after the stroke that he is unbalanced - I certainly don't see that. When we go into a ball/strike a ball, we are basically transferring the weight from back to front in most instances. The momentum of the action/swing brings the racquet back naturally - we can't continue in a lateral path to the ball which is what the "old school" believed. Its more angular now.

    I'm not familiar with the phrase "breaks the axis" but assume you don't like the angular turn into the ball which is what is being taught today with great results. The racquet is being pulled into the ball but first then lifted across the body (in most instances) on ground strokes - both sides.

    I think the kids head is pretty quiet - at least to me it is when it has to be, so I don't see the problem here either.

    This ball is being struck with a lot more topspin than perhaps most of us here realize. I'm not a RPM expert but its moving fast with tremendous top. Why, because its basically the best/most efficient way to keep the ball between the lines when we hit hard. If there wasn't much top, the ball would sail into the fence.
     
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  21. Dreamer

    Dreamer Professional

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    Sorry but you don't actually have to compromise balance to reverse pivot. Maybe you should study tennis a bit longer.

    I love how people can't explain the instruction yet compare him to Darwin. I mean Darwin explained his work didn't he? Galapagos island anyone?
     
    #71
  22. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    This isn't that "new", maybe your just getting around to learning about it but its not something straight off the drawing boards.
     
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  23. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Subscribed :)
     
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  24. emcee143

    emcee143 Rookie

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    I know Matt. He's actually a sophmore this season. I played with the team during the off season and hit ocassionally with them during the season. Being taught by Oscar seems to be something new, and before that, his shots were already pretty heavy and with lots of pace.
     
    #74
  25. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, anything new or different is generally not embraced at first. However, a lot of this is not "new or different" - maybe "new or different" from what was taught/excepted twenty/thirty years ago but few (although still too many) still advocate "old" methods. I'm sure you recognize much of this change has been brought about by newer technology in both racquets and strings along with the fitness level of top players.

    "Classic methods" whatever they may be are really "old hat" and certainly not advocated today.
     
    #75
  26. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    The post I was looking for the words to make. Nice.
     
    #76
  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Actually a soph this fall means a freshman last tennis season (can't have played #1 as a soph till spring), but I get your point. Yes, he has been working with Oscar only of late. I only mentioned it, as some of the posters spoke as though he was some kind of weak jr or something. While he was able to hit big before, the extra spin and control are things he feels Oscar has helped with.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
    #77
  28. Dreamer

    Dreamer Professional

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    Actually this is wrong is the wrong way to open stance. You don't transfer back to front foot, but rather coil uncoil off back foot. There can be some adaptations, such as pivoting off the front foot at times or even both feet. But weight transfer from back to front is not one of them. If you are doing this I suggest you correct it.

    Breaking the axis means having a unsteady turning point. Meaning the axis where the body turns during angular momentum. This implies a loss of control because the body is unsteady and the racquet path will change as well

    oh goodness. This kid actually does not create that much topspin, because his angular momentum actually isn't that great. His pivoting is limited because he disconnects with his back leg(the pivoting leg) to fall off to one side. Well you don't have to believe me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1K8RL6ElJI&feature=channel#t=2m20s
    This is good angular momentum
     
    #78
  29. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    And most advanced juniors and pros who have never been anywhere near Wegner also hit very heavy.

    Looks like the student was already hitting heavy balls and not because of any new teaching.
     
    #79
  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    How come you did not mention that you knew about him and he was already a great player?

    So are all the MTM guys connected closely and support one another? Are dissenting opinions welcome in this group?
     
    #80
  31. Dreamer

    Dreamer Professional

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    And could we stop with the Wegner worship? I mean you guys are saying this instruction is getting flak for it being with Wegner, yet you talk more about him ushering in a new age without actually discussing the instruction.
     
    #81
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    What?
    To each his own I guess, but I'd bet the kid is getting as much or more TS than Nadal is in this warm up vid you give. Not saying at all that he gets more TS than Nadal does in real point, so please don't twist it.
    Not sure what you are saying about front and back feet as I see them as outside and inside on open stance; and both Fed and Nadal often shift from outside to inside foot with their weight in point play.
    Look at the 2ond Fh in this one.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zZsGa_YTCw&feature=channel
    clear right foot to land on left foot
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
    #82
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I need to get a modern sweetspot racquet real soon. It is getting chilly, strings are behaving like wires, ball is hard and bouncing low, and my joints are getting stiff. Last night I was repeatedly mishitting the ball and wondered how great it would be to have a modern sweetspot.
     
    #83
  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    The whole thread is discussing the instruction and technique. Some have spoken highly of his teaching, but how is that worship?
    So for your vids seem to support the OP vid.
     
    #84
  35. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Rafa hits a nice 1HBH at 2:45. Looking at this, I don't see the kid in the video mimicking Rafa's FH technique of creating angular momentum.
     
    #85
  36. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Correct, that is not worship.

    This is worship:

    "the most notable Coach Internationally"

    Wonder who said that in this thread?
     
    #86
  37. DavaiMarat

    DavaiMarat Professional

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    Wow the haters...

    Dreamer, chill out, no one is out to get you...

    Oscar has a perculiar way of describing things that we may already know by other more complicated means. I simply like the fact that he tries to create game where tennis isn't so 'Technical Oriented'.

    Find the ball with your hand, Hit with your Hand, Choke up on the racket and hit with the face, Then hit with racquet half choked...etc.

    He makes is simple for beginner players to see progress and stay engaged.

    I not sure about everything he says but with any one who's ever tried to be innovative, you have some hits and some misses. Maybe only 1 hit out of 20 misses but when you hit the nail on the head, you might just get someone (or everyone) to tilt their head and listen.

    Then again 20 years later it will be dogma and other people will be trying break it down. That's life. I leave you with this quote...

    "Creativity involves breaking out of established patterns in order to look at things in a different way."

    -Edward de Bono...


    Cheers,
     
    #87
  38. Dreamer

    Dreamer Professional

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    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - Aristotle

    Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking.
    - Albert Einstein
     
    #88
  39. Dreamer

    Dreamer Professional

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    Man I like this quote thing, I don't have to do any work:

    “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

    -Siddharta Gautama
     
    #89
  40. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't mind saying this came from me. I think it is quite clear to any objective observer that no one has had the international impact of Oscar. I don't expect many in the US to realize much of what he has done. The US is not the whole world by a long shot, and clearly not even the leader in tennis. I don't know where u are from or what your tennis history knowledge is.
    I didn't say Greatest, most incredible, or any kind of worship talk, but only said notable. But this is a great example of trying to twist things into more than they are.

    Funny how you give up in trying to make a point about the strokes and always return to attacking the person.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
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  41. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Some questions...

    Oscar says to pull back on the racquet, not to step back or shift weight backwards... correct?

    If one hits off the right foot (assume righty), and the hit occurs before the left is fully planted down, the act of pulling the racquet back very fast will cause a sideways/backwards shift. I noticed this happens to me, and I only follow Oscar's advice regarding pulling the racquet back (and going up and across).

    Sometimes, the left foot gets planted before the hit, because one doesn't have to move much or some other dynamic in finding the ball - in this case, one ends up pivoting on the left foot after the stroke, and the right foot shifts forward.

    In both cases, the core feature is pulling the racquet back very quickly, and the circular nature of the up and across movement, right? One never actually tries to move backwards, I would think.
     
    #91
  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, pretty good description.

    By the way, have you tried it for slices and volleys? (it meaning MTM style)
     
    #92
  43. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    However, I think you and I are just on a different page of the music.
     
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  44. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Yes, I assume it is the MTM technique since I got it from the tapes Oscar made with Brad Holbrook. I condense it to two steps: find ball with butt of racquet, hit down and across, with the racquet face open as necessary. Works great for me!
     
    #94
  45. Winky

    Winky Guest

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    #95
  46. DNShade

    DNShade Professional

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    Yes. He is correct. The crack of a whip is actually a sonic boom - so it is going faster than the speed of sound. As a long term master bullwhip artist - I can attest that this is true as well.
     
    #96
  47. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    Sorry, most of my response didn't go through so I'll try again.

    Regarding the first paragraph. If you have some "current" references that support this/your view on this, I'd like to see them. I happen to think you might be very misguided on this but I'm willing to listen.

    Second paragraph. I see no evidence of the kid in the video being off balance. Although you might not like this approach, its being taught to advanced Junior players everywhere on groundstrokes and the swinging volley. Again, if there are references to the contrary, I'd be interested in reviewing them.

    Third paragraph. If you don't think this kid is not creating terrific top off his groundstrokes, especially the FH, than I think your not watching the same video.
     
    #97
  48. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    I think sometimes we get hung up on the "right" way to do things. There is no "right" way to hit a tennis ball. If it wins you the point, or doesn't lose you the point, by definition it is right in tennis.

    I can think of several pro tennis players that made lots of money playing professional tennis, that if they were able to give me their strokes, I would graciously decline. Much of what makes a great tennis player has nothing to do with strokes or technique.

    Now if those same players were to offer me their fitness, footwork, mental game, attitude, strategy, determination, or just about anything else besides their strokes I'd take it in a heart beat.
     
    #98
  49. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    If you would be so kind, what is "MTM style?"
     
    #99
  50. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    His advice may be good for unmotivated beginner players, yes.

    BTW, finding and tracking the ball is the whole point about tennis, and it varies from level to level. It is simply called "timing" by everyone else. It is the basic thing that distinguishes a pro from an amateur - the ability to swing harder and harder yet hit the ball comfortably in the sweetzone. It cannot be taught simply by changing the terminology to "track the ball."
     

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