Another Wegner tip...

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Pet, Oct 5, 2010.

  1. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    Well, I'm quite sure I never said it was a "great video" but I did say there are often communications problems when two people of different language backgrounds describe things. I also said that an open stance forehand is superior when we consider "just" recovery - seldom are we just looking at one aspect of a stroke. I'm certainly not trying to endorse Wegner/MTM but you must be seeing something that's not apparent to me.

    I'm also not familiar with the "fork" type device in the video - kept watching to see if they/he was going to hit a ball from it because the base looked like it might be on backward. I also was interested in getting a better look at his ball cart - looked to me like a shopping cart. Maybe he's marketing these products, don't know.

    My own cart is rather modified because I have to go up/down a few steps and a conventional cart is clumsy. So, maybe I wasn't paying full attention to what he was talking about (think I already said it seemed somewhat convoluted) but in the video, I must admit I didn't see anything that unusual.

    The USPTA has this identical stroke illustrated in pictures in one of their training manuals - even the left foot lands behind the right -- might be 5 - 8 years old.
     
  2. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    I watched some videos of Roddick hitting open stance and I can kinda see where you're coming from. However, I think there's a BIG difference. Roddick gets his torso and weight forward, into the shot and then his momentum carries him to the side somewhat.

    The kid in the video jumps directly to the side AS he's hitting the shot. it's messing up his base and axis, in my opinion.

    There's just something flat out wrong with the kid's strokes. I'm no teaching pro so I can't be certain what it is. I guarantee though, if this kid posted a video of his forehand up on here EVERYONE including the MTM proponents would be telling him he needed to work on his side skipping motion.
     
  3. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    OK. Sure some of its a players particular style which can vary quite a bit.

    Maybe the kid will post some stuff and everyone can comment. As you know, its very difficult/impossible to do much evaluation on just one or two isolated strokes. We're not given information on how the ball is fed, where the hit goes, type of ball path and so forth, so it leaves too much guessing to accomplish much of anything.

    And you might be right, the MTM folks might not think his videos would be repersentive (sp?) of their basic instruction either, don't know.
     
  4. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    Kudos to HunterST and Dreamer for being able to tirelessly and calmly refuting the nonsense being said about this shot and video - I wont repeat all the good points u have made and which have not been adressed. Tx also for John Yandell┬Ęs excellent and very nuanced descriptions of the various types of forehands, stances, momentum (momenta?) being used by top players as they constantly have to adapt during a point based on the tie they have, speed and spin of incoming ball etc.

    Let me just add that in the video the incoming ball is coming at the player with little pace and spin, which is the kind of ball that top players aim for the opponent to give them after a (high or low) number of agressive shot, now they have time to set up for a winner or a shot that will give them the point on the next shot. In this situation the had timne to do everything correctly (ie weight going forward (even if it is just slighty forward), balanced rotation and coil-uncoil) to reconcile pace and precision with high percentage. In this situation, a top pro will never hit that kind of shot seen in the video unless the ball has a bad bounce and he needs to jump backwards or to the side to be able to keep the ball in. If ur a talented beginner hoping to become a pro then ur doing urself a great disservice if u want to learn this kind of shot as a standard go to shot in situations where to have time (like in the video) to hit a shot that is biomachanically efficient and effective and that USES THE LAWS OF PHYSICS TO UR ADVANTAGE NOT AGAINST URSELF. This Wenger guy may be a fantastic human being who has kept youngsters away from the streets by making some kind of rudimentary tennis easier for beginners, but as for this video and this shot and the courses and certificates that he can sell due to the fact that some people dont know better or worse, do know better, this in my view qualifues as conartistry.
     
  5. BounceHitBounceHit

    BounceHitBounceHit Legend

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    Makes sense. I think Geoff will attest that I occasionally hit this shot, especially when someone has hit a screamer right at me and I need to 'get my body out of the way' while at the same time I am being pushed back by the combination of the depth/pace of their shot. In such instances I often land on my left foot.

    BTW, if you want to recover better a very important concept is the 'slalom step". I think one of the websites has a whole series of Fed (and others) using this to 'get back' when pulled wide.

    Best,

    BHBH
     
  6. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Hey 5263, why is there no info on the college player in the video anywhere on the internet? I also can't find any info about Wegner's pro career as he has no profile on the ATP website.

    NOT trying to say that the kids not a college player or Wegner wasn't a pro. I was just wanting to look at some info about them and I was wondering if you knew where to find any.
     
  7. Dreamer

    Dreamer Professional

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    There are different ways to hit a ball, but there are also wrong ways to hit it. We can limit ourselves with our technique.

    I see this instruction and I recognize it as Wegner trying to imitate Nadal/Fed and failing. I believe it promotes imbalance and loss of control. It also does not create the angular momentum of Nadal and Fed, the whole purpose of this stroke.

    It's just "different," but also limited. Very important to recognize this.
    And all I hear is testimonials of posters who see "elite juniors" taught this way, which is fine. I can easily ignore UFO sightings. But when you say Nadal, better post up a vid. Or at the very least explain this stroke in a way that makes sense. explain the physics that Wegner tries to touch.

    Hot air so far. Lots of it on this thread. A lot of half hearted well I feell... I think it's because.... I think I saw Nadal do it...

    Stop the nonsense. Stop the equivocating. Stop dancing around saying things like DIFFERENT DIFFERENT. Defend it or not, explain it or not. Show Nadal doing it(LAUGH) or not.

    SORRY but this thread did not need 7+ pages of NOTHING to NOT DEFEND this instruction.
     
  8. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    Well, other than pointing to the video or maybe to low level type players, what would you consider "wrong ways" to hit a ball? I'm not trying to be argumentative here and agree this this has gone on for probably too long but I'd be interested in your response.

    Based on your previous remarks, I'm assuming your fluent in the sport and have considerable experience so I think your probably referring to teaching. If this is the case, yes, there are certainly methods that would limit a player development and should not be encouraged. However, when a player is well versed in the game, these stokes (which might seem odd) become very important. These aren't strokes that should be taught to a begineer or even average player. Among other things its takes a considerable amount of tennis ability/skill to even execute these shots.
     
  9. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Trunk rotation

    Duane Knudson in his articles
    indicates that trunk rotation contributes more in the case of neutral stance
    vs open stance.
    I will try to expand this post a bit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2010
  10. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    where????

    Interesting.



    Still waiting..............
     
  11. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It was before the Open Era.

    "From 1963 to 1967 he played the International Tennis Circuit in the United States, Europe, South America, Africa and the Caribbean. While playing and practicing with many of the top players of the 50's and 60's and some who would become the top players in the 70's, i.e. Roy Emerson, John Newcombe, Tony Roche and Manuel Santana, he compared notes with them and began his search into the secrets of their success."
     
  12. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    Well, how about the USPTA as an example.
     
  13. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^Muahahaha. You're kidding right? That's "everyone" and includes "world wide"???????
     
  14. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    I can't believe this debate is still going on.
    We've established the following:

    -Wegner's verbal tips are incorrect
    -The player's strokes are off balanced and inappropriate for a typical rally shot
    and somehow this equates to the video being the new norm of instruction?

    I think what the opposing side is saying is that top juniors are being taught open stance forehands. I'm positive that this is true. However, this stroke is quite different from a normal open stance forehand. He's actively throwing his weight to the side and disturbing his balance and forward momentum.
     
  15. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    The USPTA invited Oscar to speak at the national conference at La Quinta. I spoke as did Macci, Bollettieri, Allen Fox, Tom Gorman, and about 30 other people. I stuck my head in to Oscar's talk and he had a pretty good showing--a few dozen spectators. About the norm. But there is a difference between presenting your views at a conference and the USPTA teaching them. There is no USPTA system.
     
  16. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    it appears that these guys have been instructed by some guru never to defend the substance of what they promote by keep using avoidance techniques, it like they are defended that people wont let them have their little scheme, it makes me sick.
     
  17. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    offended not defended!
     
  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    ^^^ You can edit your posts
     
  19. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I would certainly agree that there is no USPTA system as such - or a one way type approach. However, we as members are provided with plenty of examples of variations of strokes/techniques that are used in the game today - many, of course are personal style issue. However, the far majority of these I agree with but every once in a while I must admit some presentations are a little iffy - probably because of my limited understanding of things.
     
  20. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    Its too bad we can't agree on certain things here.

    First of all, the term/phrase "typical rally shot" - has this been used before in this discussion, maybe I missed it. I would not consider it a "typical shot" but rather a "aggressive baseline shot" when you've moved your opponent off to the side and your going for a winner. Maybe for very top levels it would be more typical but certainly not at the 4.5 level and below.

    Second of all, why is this shot so different than a "normal open stance forehand"? Very often the front leg (left in this example) lands "behind" and is generally off court at impact. We're pushing off with the back leg and rotating counterclockwise into the shot - we don't want his momentum going forward.

    Third, there are many forms of open stance forehands. Some are personal preference/style but others are dependent on situations and positions.

    Forth, I don't think anyone thinks of one type of forehand, like the video, to be the "new norm". If Oscar or anyone else connected with his organization thinks this video is "groundbreaking/new" than they haven't been watching top level tennis for awhile. I suspect Oscar is a very bright man with a very long tennis background although I'm not familiar with many specifics.

    This isn't a one stroke type/style fits all nor is it a "we vs them" thing. What might be considered "appropriate/normal" in one set of circumstances might be totally "inappropriate/wrong" in another.
     
  21. DNShade

    DNShade Professional

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    Hollywood baby...

    Oscar Wegner - Scientology Service Completions:

    http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/o/oscar-wegner.html

    Just FYI...
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2010
  22. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Not until a user gets 50 posts.

    -SF
     
  23. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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  24. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    If Wegner's a member of a cult, I think that goes to his overall credibility.

    And he doesn't fully separate his religious beliefs and his tennis tips, as I discovered when I saw the weird reference to proper dictionary use in Play Better Tennis in Two Hours.

    I'm not remotely qualified to comment on the instructional content of the video, but I'd find it a lot more credible if Wegner stuck to technical advice and dropped the incessant references to the evils of conventional tennis instruction (along with the very scripted-sounding testimonials from that kid).
     
  25. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Neither have been established, but
    the mob has moved on to conspiracy and cult discussion.
    I always take that to mean that since they can't find true
    probs with the strokes, they must shift their focus to the
    personal aspect.
     
  26. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^I believe many of the posters here have already contributed that "falling" backwards during your stroke, instead of shifting your weight into the shot is a BIG PROBLEM IN ANYONES STROKES.
     
  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    And many more don't agree that anyone is "falling" backwards during the strokes. Was that a term Oscar used? If it is, I would agree that you should not
    fall backwards that I know of, but just don't know what that has to do with MTM.
     
  28. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    WOW! This is really spooky, I had no idea the he is a scientology member, and I really dont care what he believes in. Im an atheist and consider all religions the same nonsense incl belief in santa claus, but before this reference to OWs beliefs, I was actually going to write a post of about the similarities between how 5264 immediately praises anybody who is positive to wengers teaching and scientologys techniques in inrolling new members. They prey on the weak and not so bright by boosting their selfesteem after which they emty their bank accounts by selling them personal development courses at horrendus prices, courses that also have the purpose of making these new members emotionally dependant on the organization. It is nausiating how obvious it is that OW apparently is copying Scientologys methods. 5234 how much did u pay for ur MTM course and how much do u get for each person u get to take the course? Are u certified to give these courses and how much have u paid to get this certificate?
     
  29. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    The folks I'm responding positive to don't need any boosting and are some of the most knowledgeable sources on this site. I try to be positive in most of my interactions, and I try to minimize my responses to those who make unfounded associations like you have here.

    But for the record, I got the same deal with MTM that I had with USPTA and am not in Scientology. Maybe you can construe a conspiracy there as well.
    Better pull the covers over your head for safety since it is sooo spooky. lol
    You don't believe in God, but do you believe in ghosts?
     
  30. DavaiMarat

    DavaiMarat Professional

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    10/10

    I approve this post for it's sheer entertainment value.

    Ummm guys trying to disprove Oscar, the best way to denounce something is not even to acknowledge it. You legitimizing it by just having this debate.

    Anyhow, I'm going to go try it on the court and see for myself. If you go out and actually try to execute this for nay or yay, what better evidence do you need?

    Just my 2 cents,
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  31. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with your post here.

    Just don't confuse the "falling back" and "off balance" aspects that are posted here in error, in your efforts.
    Bests!
     
  32. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Actions speak louder than words. And what is being taught in that video is to pull back rather than to lean into the shot.
     
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I am watching the video again, and he has already said "pull back" 3 times.

    He also said "In the future this will be used more and more" and then moved his body and feet backwards to illustrate his point!
     
  34. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    We already know that the student was an accomplished player prior to this coaching, so any good stuff he is doing was probably learnt before!
     
  35. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Has anyone noticed that OP never posted again on this thread? Who is he/she?
     
  36. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I noticed and thought odd too?

    Can be a Big difference with pulling back and falling back.
     
  37. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Oh yes, yes, and anything bad you saw was certainly from Oscar, right?
     
  38. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Must be, because he was advocating pull back and moving backwards to make his point.
     

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