Any rules you would change?

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by jaggy, May 9, 2012.

  1. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    Inspired by the let cord thread and the fact that there may be more attention to this section in the next weeks I thought I'd start a thread on ideas for change.

    I would like the doubles to be no-ad. It is already exciting but this could make it even more so.

    Comments?
     
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  2. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    you fail to realize the inmates run the asylum in College Tennis. Usually if an SEC or Big 12 coach do not like a rule or want a new rule it will get passed, hence the MTO change, the no let rule for D1 men, 4 balls for doubles, new can each set, etc... It filters down and hurts the smaller schools in the wallet.
     
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  3. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    "MTO change?" What's that?
     
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  4. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    I would like to see doubles go back to best two out of 3 sets with a super-breaker for the third set. In D3, each court is 1 point in D1 the doubles is worth 1 point whether you win 2 or 3 of the courts. I think doubles should be emphasized more, but with only a pro-set, it seems like its over-emphasized now in D3. Therefore, by making it best two out of 3 sets (I would also do no-ad in doubles) with a super-breaker for the 3rd set (like they do in the pros) the doubles should then count as 1 point per court.

    Additionally, there is a lot of strategy and coaching involved with doubles. Which side people serve from after the first set,the order of serving, and the switching of return sides are taken out of the equation when only a pro-set is played.
     
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  5. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    Medical Time Out: D1 went to one per match and then retirement, rather than allow an MTO for each individual injury
     
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  6. SoCal10s

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    limit all teams to have maximum 3 foreign (non-US RESIDENT) on the roster ..give the men's team the same amount of scholarships as women's teams get...
     
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  7. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    I would change that to 3 starters or 3 foreigners with scholarships. Men should be allowed to have the same number of scholarships as women. If the school doesn't have football, this should be much easier to do.
     
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  8. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    How do you think these changes would affect the college game? Upgrade? Downgrade? More parity? Less parity? Help the high-major (BCS) schools? Help the mid-major schools? Help/hurt DIII?

    There is the attraction of symmetry in suggesting that mens' teams get 8 fulls like the women do. One reason for the disparity is Title IX. Women's tennis allows schools to build up the balance of opportunities for women, in light of all the scholarships that are allocated to football in particular.

    If more scholys are allocated to men's tennis, they would probably have to come out of some other men's sport. If not, then the rich athletic programs wouldn't care because they would probably be able to handle the cost, but other programs might have budget problems.........exacerbating divides between rich and poor.
     
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  9. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    How would this work? During a recruit's senior year he/she is offered a conditional scholarship based on whether he/she is in the starting lineup next fall? Next spring? In the first match? In more than 50% of matches?

    Right now athletic scholarships are one-year commitments and are usually renewed in the spring. For tennis, that would be changed until the next starting lineup is decided?

    I don't see how a coach could commit to offering a scholarship to anyone unless there was the case of a superstar committing to East Armpit U (apologies to whoever coined this before me).
     
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  10. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Wow Mrbill, I actually disagree on Title 9. I think that it is outdated and needs to be modified, if not altogether eliminated. If I had a say, if a school offered a sport, it would need to fund the exact same number of scholarships for the male version as it does for women. The NCAA minimum per sport needs to be at least a starting roster plus one.

    If there is no female equivalent (ie football), so be it. I would set a minimum number of sports a school must fund at 16 to be considered D1, 14 for D2 or D3 so that schools wouldn't eliminate non revenue altogether. To be BCS eligible, they would have to fund 20 teams.

    Yea, there are probably loopholes in my plan that would need ironed out. But, I hate when reverse discrimination becomes acceptable.
     
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  11. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    What are you disagreeing with?

    How do you know what I think about Title IX? I stated the fact that the reason for the disparity between mens' and womens' tennis scholarships is Title IX.

    And I'm standing by it
     
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  12. SoCal10s

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    Title IX.. has to go away...
     
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  13. floridatennisdude

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    Maybe I misunderstood or misinterpreted. Can't recall ever disagreeing on a view so I was shocked thinking that you had a pro title 9 stance.

    Facts are facts and you are correct that other male sports will suffer if others were to gain.
     
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  14. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Dilemma is, if it goes away altogether why would schools fund any non revenue sports? I could totally see sports getting slashed left and right and college sports becoming football and basketball only down the road.
     
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  15. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Well, this is a first..........because clearly we disagreed about whether we disagreed.

    Truth to tell, I happen to agree that Title IX "is outdated and needs to be modified, if not altogether eliminated"
     
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  16. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    There are strong arguments for this, that all other sports should be nothing but club sports. Not sure I agree much with it myself but financially I do see the point made.
     
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  17. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Agree, college should adopt the pro style of doubles, plus have every doubles match count for 1 point.

    Why should doubles (collectively) have less importance than a singles match.
     
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  18. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    With the changes I propose it would make doubles take a little longer, but with no-ad scoring, it shouldn't add that much overall time.
    Although it would take less than singles, with it being the same amount of sets it would then deserve the same amount of points in the match score.
     
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  19. Tennishacker

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    As one of the few coaches on here, can you tell me what are the requirements placed on you by your AD regarding your job requirements?
    (winning season, graduation rate etc.)

    Thanks in advance
     
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  20. BHSC

    BHSC New User

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    I would require all dual matches involving a ranked player (and all #1 singles and #1 doubles matches) to go to completion.

    These matches should not be DNFs, regardless of team scores. (except the NCAAs b/c of the heat).

    This change would increase the accuracy of the rankings.
    Tennis fans would benefit (Don't most want to see what happens at #1 singles?) and Don't most players want to see how they measure up against the other best guys? Win or lose it seems like it would be beneficial to a player's improvement.



    Regarding the doubles suggestions above: Making the doubles matches longer and count for 3 points as in the old days may be more accurate.

    However, I think the most exciting, fan friendly part of a dual match is the 8 game pro set for just 1 point.
     
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  21. TennisFan2Day

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    I agree, nothing worse than watching a #1 or #2 singles player stalling because he knows that he is losing and his teammate is about ready to end the match.
     
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  22. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    I am an assistant coach. I have been offered head coaching positions before, but for part-time pay (less than a h.s. coach would be paid). That tends to be the norm at many colleges, even D1 programs. Where I coach at, however, all the coaches are full-time and all the sports are treated equally. The sports are funded based on the participants and not because basketball is the alpha sport. Because of this, tennis is somewhat over-funded compared to most comparable schools and basketball (we don't have football) is underfunded.

    Getting back to your question and assuming its for the head coach, there isn't a requirement placed on by our AD for the teams. Their basic goal is .500 seasons followed by making the conference playoffs, followed by making nationals by winning the conference. This year men's tennis and baseball were conference champs and are going to nationals. Men's tennis has won their conference 12 straight years without a conference loss. I would guess that if the student-athletes or AD had issues with the coach(es) that would have more bearing on the coach not being rehired vs. having a bad record.

    Whether at the D1, D2, or D3 level there are programs that are in competitive conferences and the athletic department expects wins no matter what the sport. Not bringing home the bling after a few years may mean a dismissal. Tennis, though, for most schools in general, is on a lower rung of the totem pole. Its more of don't rock the boat. They need to offer the sport. Winning is a just a bonus.
     
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  23. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Thanks, there is a false assumption that coaches have to win at all cost, or they will lose their job.
     
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  24. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ......................
     
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  25. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Tennisjon's reply was given in the context of DIII. Yes, many DIII schools de-emphasize competitiveness in sports. And that's fine, I really mean that!

    At D1 high-major/BCS schools.....and many D1 mid-major schools its all about winning. Do you disagree, Tennisjon?

    Yes, I know there are exceptions. There are the coaches like Jamie Sanchez of Loyola Marymount (a great coach and a great guy) whose W-L records are in the middle of the pack.......and yet who have been there forever. They even named the tennis courts after him.

    The legacy coaches, like Jamie, are the exception. Most coaches have tenures less than 10 years. Any of us can check the turnover in coaches that happens each year.

    Successful coaches at mid-major schools leave to go to competitive D1 high-major programs (destination jobs). The coaches at competitive D1 programs who are fired are the ones with the poorer records, not the better records, I think

    EDIT: Before someone might ask me how Jamie can be a great coach and yet have a so-so W-L record at a school with a great academic reputation right plunk in the middle of SoCal, let me respond. He is not as good a recruiter out of high school as the coaches at the upper-tier schools in the WCC.....such as Pepperdine, USD, St Mary's and Santa Clara, in my amateur opinion. I think it is fair to say that LMU has a higher than average number of transfers-in. Whether this is a good or bad thing for any particular player.....it is something all recruits should take a look at for any school they are interested in
     
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  26. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ..............................
     
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  27. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I agree with that.

    If a kid is looking for top-flight competitive college tennis, and he/she does not get an offer from the school of choice because better players (on paper at least) were chosen, I think it is a cop-out for them to complain about foreigners on the roster, or coaches taking bribes (as alleged by at least one other person, not you). Those coaches are paid to win............and in my experience don't have a shred of sentimentality.

    But there are lots of great college tennis opportunities at D1, D2, D3, NAIA etc schools where there are varying degrees of emphasis put on winning. Gotta check out each program. Heck, I think there are a few D3 schools that are probably more competitive than a few scholarship-offering D1 schools.

    If a kid is looking for competition, and loses out in the competitive recruiting rat-race, how can the kid complain? You can't want and not want competitiveness at the same time. There are lots of alternatives.

    EDIT: One amendment to the statement above, that competitive-program coaches will always take the better of two players. If two players are equal or one is a little better than the other, and the better player is the child of "one of those parents", my limited experience indicates that this player will get left by the wayside either in the recruiting process, or if the kid is recruited, after he/she is on the roster. Particularly if the kid is from the area where the school is located
     
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  28. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Talk about thread spill over...I wasn't going to go there...
     
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  29. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I love the 8 game prosets. I generally know that they will last an hour and therefore if I show up an hour and a half late, I'm right at the start of singles.
     
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  30. TennisFan2Day

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    I would like to see them eliminate coaching except on change overs. I was pretty disappointed this year watching a match with a top ten player on a top ten team and his coach was standing there telling him where he should serve after every point in one game.

    Eliminate the medical time out. If you are not in good enough shape to make it through a match without cramping then that is your problem. If you are going to play injured, then that is the chance you take. Unless there is blood involved then there should be no reason to delay the match.
     
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  31. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Pro tennis is the only sport in the world that restricts coaching...why is it? Golfers talk to their caddy between every shot. Team sport coaches have zero restrictions on when they can call out plays. Even in sports like swimming, track & CC, or gymnastics the coaches aren't limited on shouting tot heir athletes. I kind of dislike that tennis has coaching restrictions and I like that they are allowed to coach in the college game.

    Wow, eliminate a medical time out? Makes me think about the player at the Open that was agonizing in pain from cramping and they had to sit and watch until he was defaulted and then carted off the court. Pretty sure that wouldn't be favored by athletic trainers.
     
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  32. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    You would think that at those schools it would be, but its not always the case. A friend of mine coaches D1 at a BCS school and he is part-time. The program is barely funded. If the school isn't willing to pay a coach a full-time salary, how can they expect him or her to devote a significant amount of time to recruiting? When I am talking part-time, we are talking about making less than a high school coach would make. If you don't recruit good players and don't offer scholarships (many D1 programs offer no scholarships at all), you can't be expected to be competitive.

    Sports are essentially meant to generate money in that they get kids to the school that would not have ordinarily have gone. If you only partially fund a non-competitive program, you can still make out way ahead financially compared to schools that fully fund. After all, schools are a business. Sports leads to more successful students who are likely to give back to the school upon graduation.
     
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  33. andfor

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    Welcome to TT at TW. The only place where the exception becomes the norm.
     
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  34. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    That's gotta be a Big East non-football team...........like Providence or something. But maybe I'm wrong and you are talking about a Texas or Clemson or Ole Miss or the like.

    So........not intending to put words in your mouth.........my take-away from your post is that your message to parents and juniors is that winning isn't everything for some high-major/BCS tennis schools, coaches at these schools do not have a motivating incentive to win, therefore there is no pressure to get the best players, whether they be American or non-American.

    EDIT: Just saw andfor's post. Yeah, maybe that's why I am confused!
     
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  35. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    Its not the norm. Nor is it an exception. Its just much more common than you think. Tennis is not basketball or football. It is not seen as something that grabs national attention that aids in getting kids to come to the school. Schools in ACC, SEC, Pac-10 are super-competitive in nearly every sport. Schools are trying to win the President's Cup and win as many titles in as many sports as possible. Other conferences have teams that are there just to hold down a spot and a winning record is a bonus. Producing happy successful people who donate money back to the school is just as important to them. Most schools have greater expectations than this, but again, most conferences have schools at the bottom and they are always there because the program isn't funded and cared for by the school.
     
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  36. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    OK. After sorting thru all this, here are my conclusions for others to shoot down.

    These are the super-competitive conferences, where I would advise juniors and parents that winning is everything, coaches are incentivized (is that a word?) to win, programs are fully-funded, and coaches will try to get the best players regardless of nationality

    Big Ten
    ACC
    SEC
    Pac-12
    Big-12
    Big East--football schools only
     
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  37. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    I agree. I have other friends in fully-funded non-BCS programs and they are super-competitive in their conference. The top 4 schools or so are constantly trying to one-up each other and get to nationals, but once again, there are school at the bottom of their conference who know they can't compete because they aren't fully funded and can't attract top level talent. A coach can have a losing record for years and as long as there aren't other issues with the team, can hold onto his or her job.
     
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  38. TennisFan2Day

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    That is why it should be eliminated. If they are training to be professionals, they why shouldn't they play by the same rules. If they allowed coaching in the juniors and pros then I wouldn't have any problem with it at all.

    The MTO has evolved in a way that it wasn't intended for. There are top academies telling players they should take them if they are down it a set and need more time to mentally prepare.

    Could you imagine a boxer asking if he can wait a few minutes until he catches his breath? Maybe a swimmer can take a break between laps because they are cramping. It is a sport, you either tough it out or take up knitting.

    This article is from a few years ago.

    JOHN MCENROE CALLS INJURY TIMEOUTS A TOUR EPIDEMIC

    http://gototennis.com/2009/08/19/john-mcenroe-calls-injury-timeouts-a-tour-epidemic/
     
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  39. andfor

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    Not all D1 tennis players are training to be pros. The WTA allows coaching. The NCAA and ITA do not always see eye-to-eye. The college tennis rules are set by the coaches. Your article, while I understand the premise, will be considered dated and thus not relevant by some here.
     
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  40. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    There are coaches that will coach on every point, I feel bad for the player, and it makes it difficult to watch the match.
    Yes, coaching should be limited to change overs.

    I'm not sure about eliminating the MTO.
    College tennis is a short, compressed season, if a player gets a minor injury early in the season, they have to play the remainder of the season injured.
     
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  41. floridatennisdude

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    ehh, I guess my point was that i wish coaching was also allowed in the pro game. I favor college tennis where it is allowed. I appreciate the changes that players can make if given the guidance. It also shows what coaches can do in actual situations of the sport and not just their recruiting and practice skills.
     
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  42. TennisFan2Day

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    Cramping is nothing more than not being in good enough shape and making sure you have enough nutrients and water. I have done 14 marathons and I have only cramped 1 time, the first time, when I didn't train hard enough or eat and drink enough during the race.
     
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  43. TennisFan2Day

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    I agree, I just think college sports should mirror professional sports, or in some cases vice versa.

    Just like I think it is stupid that a player can dive for a catch in college football and he is down as soon as his knee hits the ground but in the pros it is fine to get back up and run unless they are touched. The college versus the pros 3 point line in basketball, etc.
     
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  44. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Idk, some of the teams coming to Athens are going to be rapidly adjusting to climate changes that come into play as well. That is one reason I am picking my Gator women to repeat over a Pac12 school in the final. Stanford, for example, won't have played in that much humidity all season. Not wishing cramping on anyone, just looking at it logically.
     
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  45. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    I don't agree that coaching should be eliminated in college tennis. You should understand that more than 90% of college tennis players are NOT training to become professional tennis players. Additionally, college tennis is a team sport. Even in pro tennis team events (Davis Cup, Fed Cup, World Team Tennis, etc.) coaching is allowed.

    Regarding medical timeouts, D1 took a good step a couple of years ago by limiting each player/doubles team to one medical timeout per match, not per injury as was the old rule. This significantly cuts back on gamesmanship medical timeouts when a player is down a break and their opponent is serving for the set. It also keeps the door open for a legitimate medical timeout for a rolled ankle or something more serious.

    While I would not be opposed to a rule change eliminating medical timeouts from cramping as per the professional rules, I don't think that will ever happen in USTA/NCAA/ITA matches. I think the goal at these levels should be to encourage play, and if a player is cramping for whatever reason at USTA or ITA matches, they should be given the chance to continue if they can after treatment. Why risk a serious long term injury. Additionally, with the way lawsuits happen in this country, it would not be far fetched for a player to have a serious condition that goes untreated and the parents or the player himself were to sue the NCAA, ITA or USTA for something like that. I don't think they will take the risk.

    Finally, as was stated before, the coaches make the rules in college tennis, and for the most part, they do a good job at it.
     
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  46. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I agree with this. A similar situation arises in college football where defensive players....allegedly...have faked cramps or other injuries to try to slow down hurry-up offenses without having to burn a timeout. The consequences in college football (whether or not the injury is legit) are that the player has to sit out at least one play, which may or may not cause a detriment to the defense. I don't know if it is practical in tennis to charge points/games for multiple cramping claims.

    One other point. I think it was mentioned that college tennis is a "short, compressed season" I don't agree with that. The spring regular season thru conference tourney typically is three months. Isn't it the same for soccer, track, cross country, baseball, softball, lacrosse, volleyball etc?
     
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  47. woodrow1029

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    If a player has already received their one medical timeout per match, they only have a couple options if they start cramping or have another injury.

    They can receive code violations for delay of game (point and game penalty), but if that doesn't get them to the changeover, they would be defaulted. Or they can retire.

    What I would like to see happen is a rule similar to the new professional rules for cramping (Of course in the pros there is no medical timeout allowed for cramping anymore).

    If the player has already received their one medical timeout, and they start cramping or have another injury, they should be able to "buy time" by forfeiting any points or games until the next changeover or set break, and then they could receive treatment on the changeover or set break, but only 90 or 120 seconds depending on whether it's a changeover or set break. That way, if someone DOES have two legitimate injuries, they can get to a changeover without being defaulted for delay of game and have a chance to continue the match.
     
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  48. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Tip o' the cap for new information, at least for me!
     
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  49. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    I like those suggestions!
     
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  50. TennisFan2Day

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    College athletes are not kids anymore, they are adults and shouldn't have their hands held, both on and off the court. I would agree that they should be able to be coached between changeovers but if a player needs to be coached between every point then they have no business being on the court.

    Woodrow1029 - I do like your idea about "buying time".
     
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