Anyone else seeing the trend?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Duzza, Aug 16, 2007.

  1. Duzza

    Duzza Legend

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    Seems that a lot of players recently have been pulling out after losing the 1st set and trailing in the 2nd. Maybe they were true injuries, but really...a left hander injuring his left arm. First time he has ever had that injury, conveniently when he was down 4-1 after losing the first....hmm.
     
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  2. successortt

    successortt New User

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    Wait a minute.. are you accusing Nadal for pulling out only because he was losing. What an ass you are. His left are was obviously bothering him from the start of the match, just look at his forehand unforced errors.
     
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  3. Duzza

    Duzza Legend

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    Not just Nadal though. Gasquet retired when he was down as well. I didn't watch the matches so I am merely guessing.
     
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  4. jrgfederer

    jrgfederer New User

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    ok, first of all its completely ridiculous to suggest that NADAL would pull out of a match just because hes down. hes probably the most intense fighter on tour. maybe these pros, since its getting close to the USO, dont want to take any chances? if theyre probably going to lose, and theyre starting to feel like its pretty bad, they might just decide its not worth it.
     
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  5. Duzza

    Duzza Legend

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    Ok Ok. I get it. Nadal played horribly, as I just read. What about Gasquets retirement? And Hantuchova?
     
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  6. WayneCM

    WayneCM Semi-Pro

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    i watched the match i'm no nadal fan but he was not comfortable at times he simply popped the ball into play from both serve and forehand, not him at all... He did the right thing, many other players would have retired after the 1st set...
     
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  7. daddy

    daddy Legend

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    Im sticking with you. He is so hard after the nr1 spot and hes a fighter. I am pretty sure he cpould have shrugged it off but at what cost - think ? Maybe he would make it worse and virtually it would come back to his face on 27th of Aug in US.

    Just a remainder - I posted two threads on this today one here, then they told me not to talk results and I moved to results part of the forum where I found same discussion, so if we are all seing this , some retiring some playing like in excebitions etc .. maybe theres something wrong ? Either pull out before and not lurk people into buyin tickets or go there and die. ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2007
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  8. ATXtennisaddict

    ATXtennisaddict Hall of Fame

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    if you are destined to lose because of the injury and you know it, why aggravate the injury further? Might as well retire.
     
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  9. Nuke

    Nuke Hall of Fame

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    But it's so suspicious that these "injured" players retire when it is a certainty that they are about to lose the match. It's very rare to see someone retire while they are ahead.
     
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  10. welcome2petrkordaland

    welcome2petrkordaland Semi-Pro

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    blame the SCHEDULING!! remember these dudes are required to play in all TMS tournies. fed last year. now nadal, gasquet and djokovic. get a clue, atp!
     
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  11. daddy

    daddy Legend

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    Its not , they go out and try their best and think what haooees will happen and you cvan not blmae them for truing.
     
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  12. Nuke

    Nuke Hall of Fame

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    I don't blame them for going out there and giving it a try when they know they are injured, but when they stop the match when defeat is likely, I always wonder if the injury would seem a lot less painful if they were ahead in the match. Yesterday, Gasquet quit, down 6-1 3-2 with a blister on his hand. Well, tennis players are very familiar with blisters and play with them all the time. If he had won that first set, do you still think he would have retired?
     
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  13. coloskier

    coloskier Legend

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    This kind of thing has been going on for decades. In order to get their appearance money, they have to start their 1st round match. Plus, you noticed that they were all playing doubles. I don't think any of them had any idea of finishing their doubles. If they were too tired, they would have never played doubles in the 1st place. So.... TANK!!!!
     
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  14. gregmiata

    gregmiata Rookie

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    certainly not, but...

    Let's look at this from both player's perspective.

    ME: If I am injured and don't think I have much of a chance of winning there is no downside to retiring. It goes down as a loss either way and I don't have to keep playing and chance hurting myself more. If the match is close and I think I can win then I have a reason to possibly try and tough it out; I get the points and prize money that comes from that win, plus the hope that I will be ok to play tomorrow. If I am ahead then I want to finish the match out to get the win, points, prize money, and possiblility that with treatment I might be able to play ok tomorrow and continue on. You never know when rain (see Wimbledon 2007) will give me extra time to recover as well.

    THE OTHER GUY: He is very happy to see me retire, that is less work he has to do today which means he is fresher for his next match tomorrow.

    Sure, you can argue that the fans miss out some when a player retires, but I really don't know if I agree with that either. Most fans want to see the player at his best, and move on when they sense something is wrong. I mean, I saw the beginning of the Nadal match and even the announcers were begging the production team to go to a match that was better. It was just bad, ugly tennis and not many people stick around too long for that.

    Greg
     
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  15. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    This is so dumb. Djokovic and Nadal had no problems going from Indian Wells to Miami, where massive jet lag is involved and big climate changes. It gets humid and hot in both areas. Montreal to Cincy is not bad, Cincy isn't even that hot right now. Montreal was cool by most standereds. Nadal just lost because of an arm injury (easy to see from his forehand errors and his lack of pace), but Djokovic just got plain beaten down by Moya.
     
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  16. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

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    I think it's a disgrace that Nadal retired down a set and 4-1. Monaco had worked so hard and when he finally broke Nadal's back once and for all, Nadal retired.

    That's poor form from Nadal so close to the end of a match. I remember Agassi continuing with a hip injury to allow Nimeinen to finish the match off. Remember when Henin retired against Mauresmo in the Australian Open final? It's like an unwritten rule that you finish off a match when it's so close to being over.

    When people look back on the results they will see "retired" next to it which isn't fair on Monaco at all, he played a great match and deserved the credit for it.
     
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  17. gregmiata

    gregmiata Rookie

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    NamRanger:

    Where in the US are you?

    I live in Lexington, KY which is about 80 miles south of Cincy. It is BRUTALLY HOT right now. We were at 102 yesterday with decent humidity which set an all time record here I believe. It is the same today but with even more humidity added in.

    Sorry to disagree but it was in the 70's with no humidity in Montreal. Thats a far cry from Cincy right now!

    I'm not arguing that Moya whipped Djokovic, although I can understand why seeing as how there is bound to be a let down after beating #3, #2, and #1 in the world on consecutive days to win the title in Montreal. If Cincy wasn't another Super 9 event you wouldn't have even seen him there.

    Greg
     
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  18. natasha_nana

    natasha_nana Rookie

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    In the words of lleyton hewitt regarding difficult circumstances for tennis
    pros: "you're not up for it? quit. it's that simple".


    ;)

    So yeah although scheduling could be improved...I don't think it's to blame.
     
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  19. Zaragoza

    Zaragoza Banned

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    Top players can rest for 5 or 6 days between Indian Wells and Miami, it´s not the same.
     
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  20. Gimmick

    Gimmick Semi-Pro

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    Tommy Haas and Richard Gasquet lead the men for retiring when losing, Federer and Blake never do. Jankovic and Serena lead the women for retiring when losing Ivanovic and Hingis don't. This is according to Tennis magazine recent research. Nadal didn't show up on the chart.
     
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  21. Zaragoza

    Zaragoza Banned

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    Poor form from Nadal? lol. He was injured from the start and tried his best but he realized that staying on the court he would only aggravate his injury. What do you want, that he is seriously injured for the US Open by playing 2 more games not being in the conditions to play? The unwritten rule is that if there is a high risk to aggravate some injury you quit.
     
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  22. mileslong

    mileslong Professional

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    nadal wouldnt have retired if he had been ahead, he pulled a lindsey davenport there big time...
     
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  23. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

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    Yes, he was injured from the start. Yet he decided to retire with only 2 games left? Bad from Nadal, very bad.
     
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  24. ComeBackRafter

    ComeBackRafter New User

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    i was just at the tournament and saw gasquet practicing on tuesday. he already had the blister bandaged and was complaining about it then. he and nadal were also scheduled to play doubles on tuesday but they pulled out because of gasquet's blister. so it's safe to say it was bothering him before the match even started.
     
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  25. Nuke

    Nuke Hall of Fame

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    I don't doubt that Gasquet had a blister and that it bothered him. I'll bet if you randomly picked any top player on any particular day and asked what ails them, you'd hear about a blister here, a sore shoulder there, a slight groin pull there. But they play with these things all the time. Only sometimes, for some players, when they are about to lose, the injuries suddenly become more important, and maybe an excuse to pack up early. Like I said, if Gasquet had won that first set, do you really think he would have retired . . . because of a blister?
     
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  26. superstition

    superstition Hall of Fame

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    Stop playing on hard courts and you'll see a drop in injuries over time. Go back to low powered racquets (small head and flexible) and you'll see a further drop in injuries over time.
     
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  27. tennispro11

    tennispro11 Hall of Fame

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    Dude, I was watching the matches today. On the court it was up to 107 degrees F. That is way hot. I wouldn't be able to play even a couple of hours of hard hitting tennis the way the pros do. I wouldn't jump to conclusions on anything when it comes to knowing what these guys think or what they are doing.
     
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  28. Voltron

    Voltron Hall of Fame

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    Pffft, like I'd know
    Jesus, you are certainly a troll, try to emulate some of the other Nadal fans and be respectful of others.

    I agree with your point Duzza, don't let this troll get to you.
     
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  29. origmarm

    origmarm Hall of Fame

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    Check out this article from Tennis Magazine:
    http://www.tennis.com/features/general/features.aspx?id=70254
    These are the numbers and they have a little chart.
    Nadal doesn't even make it into the chart. I wouldn't have thought Djokovic would be so high and certainly Haas for me never stood out as much as this would suggest.
    Would have liked to have seen the stats for Davenport

    Edit: Of course Nadal does in fact make it into the charts. I am just being blind
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2007
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  30. Zaragoza

    Zaragoza Banned

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    I guess you watched the whole match since you´re talking about Nadal´s form. When you´re injured,dizzy...from the start and the match progresses you only get worse so he wasn´t in the same conditions than in the start. The last couple of games played by Nadal were pathetic to watch, I think he should have retired before so don´t blame him for that unless you enjoy watching Nadal being incapable to play to say that he lost in fair conditions. I think that´s what frustrated some people. You said it was a disgrace that Nadal retired at 1-4, not that Nadal had to retire lol it says it all about how biased you´re against Nadal. You have to feel sorry for the injured player, not for the player who won the match.That´s basic sportsmanship and class.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2007
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  31. coloskier

    coloskier Legend

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    It sounds like Nadal needs a new sport drink sponsor. Cramps and dizziness are usually a sign of not replenishing your electrolytes good enough. I can already see the advertisements with Nadal wrestling an alligator for GATORADE. :p
     
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  32. daddy

    daddy Legend

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    Jankovic plays so many matches, like more than twice than Justine .. SHe has to be more prone to injury.
     
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  33. daddy

    daddy Legend

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    Djokovic is high because he had couple of retirements due to schedule - wimbledon and freench were most notable - because he played 5 hours matches back to back. Could not have avoided it. Then again - you want to give it a shot at your first couple of semis at slams right ? I remember he gave up when leading 1 set and with a brake in hand against wawrinka in FINAL - he had the match but could not take it any more. YOu have to know he had operations to handle the breathing problem he had before and he had those issues much more before than now. He stuck with moya did he , and lost to 1 in final set ..
     
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  34. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

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    Yeah, and you're not biased? :lol:

    Nadal just wasn't up for it from the start, he'd pretty much given up when he got broke in the second set. Finish the match and stop being a cry baby.

    If he was in that much pain he should of retired much earlier, what would of been the best outcome in carrying on? Winning the match and having to play more matches making the injury worse? Pfft.

    I'll say it again, very poor stuff from Nadal.
     
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  35. RiosTheGenius

    RiosTheGenius Hall of Fame

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    you can choose to see it that way... or you can also consider that the reason why he was losing so bad it's because he was in a great deal of pain... which he struggled with until it was unbearable and had to quit, but stayed on court as long as it was technically possible because he is a real competitor.
    it's up to you.
     
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  36. Zaragoza

    Zaragoza Banned

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    Tell me which of my points are biased like I did with you :D
    Defending someone from non-sense attacks doesn´t make someone biased as far as I know.
    So someone who retires because he isn´t in the conditions to play is a crybaby? It makes me think that you have not played a lot. Ask any player who is the greatest fighter on the tour and most of them will tell you Nadal. The only disgrace here was that one player wasn´t able to play in good conditions and retired,that´s all. I still don´t know if you watched the match.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2007
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  37. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

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    Not played alot? Maybe if you ask first before making assumptions about me you wouldn't make yourself look so foolish, yeah?

    Nadal is a crybaby, 2 games to go, FINISH THE MATCH.. just because your arm hurts and your forehand is off (like it was the whole match) doesn't mean you should just retire. It's called being a professional, everytime Nadal looses these days he has an excuse, sometimes it's an injury that he picks up (often while losing, funny that, no?) or blame hawk eye like he did when he lost to Youzhny.

    Nadal a crybaby? Oh I think so.
     
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  38. Zaragoza

    Zaragoza Banned

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    Do you understand what "it makes me think" mean? Good. Read carefully next time. If you played a lot you should have learned what someone feels on the court when he is injured and dizzy.
    Not only his forehand was off in that match, everything was off because he wasn´t healthy.I was shocked that he almost won the 1st set.
    Everytime Nadal loses he has an excuse? Ok now I see what you are made of. Being injured is an excuse, right. And yes, when someone is injured the usual thing is to lose and it´s not funny.
    Blame the hawkeye after one point? How many players have done that sometime?
    Given your nickname you seem to be a Gonzalez fan but maybe it´s a coincidence, of course. I thought you would be interested to know what Gonzalez did once against Robredo:

    http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=G415&playernum2=R419

    Oh yes, Gonzalez retired being down 6-2 4-1, isn´t it funny? Now you can call your favourite player a crybaby and a bad professional or you will sound foolish. There is not much you can do though.
     
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  39. welcome2petrkordaland

    welcome2petrkordaland Semi-Pro

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    Originally Posted by welcome2petrkordaland
    blame the SCHEDULING!! remember these dudes are required to play in all TMS tournies. fed last year. now nadal, gasquet and djokovic. get a clue, atp!


    NamRanger:
    This is so dumb. Djokovic and Nadal had no problems going from Indian Wells to Miami, where massive jet lag is involved and big climate changes. It gets humid and hot in both areas. Montreal to Cincy is not bad, Cincy isn't even that hot right now. Montreal was cool by most standereds. Nadal just lost because of an arm injury (easy to see from his forehand errors and his lack of pace), but Djokovic just got plain beaten down by Moya.

    ____________________________________________________________
    Okay, first off, it does NOT get hot and humid in both Indian Wells and Miami. Indian Wells is in a desert . . . uhhhhhhhh. . . not very humid.

    And to echo Gregmiata's comment, Cincy HAS been quite hot (not unlike many states in the eastern half of the U.S., where a serious heat wave is going on)-don't really know where that came from.

    I also don't have a lot of confidence that the "massive jet lag" involved in going from Indian Wells, CA to Miami, FL gave Nadal and Djokovic that much trouble, esp. since they had a few DAYS to adjust.

    So I'm sorry you felt the need to troll, but I was just expressing some general frustration w/ the some of the ATP scheduling and the lower quality tennis it brings. Here are two examples off the top of my head:

    We all know grass court season and Wimbledon is too close to clay court season, right? But this year's rain delays and poor decision not to allow play on the middle Sunday, to my mind, affected the outcome of the tournament, as it unnecessarily hindered one half of the draw.

    And scheduling the TMS Canada and Cincy events one week after another is not the smartest thing in the world and will invariably not bring out the best tennis. These two TMS's could've been spread out, esp. considering top players HAVE to play in 'em.

    Top players who are primarily concerned w/ winning slams are simply gonna tank. Winning 7 3 of 5 set matches in two weeks ain't no cake walk. Borg himself was known for tanking matches after making the required appearance in minor tournies leading up 2 slams. Look at Federer's mysterious loss to Murray in Cincy last year or was that a Fed look-alike out there? This just before Federer captures another U.S. Open.
     
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  40. camille

    camille New User

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    I think it was prudent for both Nadal and Gasguet to retire so as not to aggravate their injuries. I have a feeling though, that they would have fought on till the end if they had the first set under their belt. But I'm not here to judge them.

    One player who earned my respect for not retiring was Nadia Petrova at the French Open in her match against Peschke. She had a back injury in the second set and was in obvious discomfort, yet she stuck it out in the third set, accepting a bagel instead of taking the easy way out. Foolish perhaps, but really gutsy.
     
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  41. ninman

    ninman Hall of Fame

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    Nadal is one of the worst losers on tour. When he lost to Federer in Hamburg "I was a bit tired", which would explain how he managed to win the first set 6-2 of course. He's losing to Federer in Wimbledon and what do you know? Out comes the trainer. Granted he was winning the set, but he was still losing the match overall, so he needed a good excuse just in case it didn't go his way.

    Every time he loses he looks grumpy, upset and generally p'ed off. When he wins, he's having the best day. Remember when he lost to Berdych in Madrid and he called him stupid after the match? I think it must be a Spanish thing, because when Berdych came out next he didn't exactly get a warm reception.
     
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  42. camille

    camille New User

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    I like Nadal, but I admired Berdych for the way he employed the right strategy against him in that infamous match. I certainly hated the way the crowd vilified Berdych in his subsequent match (I think against Gonzalez?). Really rattled his game, which I thought was a shame.
     
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  43. TheGreatestAudia

    TheGreatestAudia Rookie

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    I really wish people would use spell check...
     
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  44. federer envies me

    federer envies me Semi-Pro

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    they are just getting ready for the uso
     
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  45. callitout

    callitout Professional

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    I agree its been such an insult to Roger to call him the greatest player in history repeatedly as Nadal has done after most of his losses.

    As to OP you commit a logical fallacy: You assume that your conclusion is true and argue from there. Players fake injuries (your conclusion worked in as an assumption) so they retire at a convenient time.
    Yet an equally plausible explanation exists: Players who have legitimate injuries dont play as well because of the injury, and therefore, are more likely to be losing when they retire because of their legitimate injuries.
     
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  46. AJK1

    AJK1 Hall of Fame

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    A lot of match fixing goes on apparently, maybe that's the reason.
     
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  47. daddy

    daddy Legend

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    Try writing my language mate. I dont care for spelling, as long as you get my point. Stick by tennis issues friend, this is a tennis forum.
     
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  48. rockthebox

    rockthebox Rookie

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    I write/speak 4 languages, and I make an effort not to make spelling errors in every single one.
    This is an english tennis forum. Is it so much of an effort just to look back and check your spelling? Try downloading Firefox with spell check, it's very convenient.
     
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  49. daddy

    daddy Legend

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    I said Ill not do this as long as you understand my point. Good for you that you speak 4 languages, I think that all you need is basic love for the game and some knowledge on tennis to participate. This is no grammar school and I was tired, most of my posts are okay , or it seems like it to me. Dont bother me with this anymore because I dont think you are right and will not do what you want me to even if you write a10 threads about it.

    Now will we talk tennis or what ?
     
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  50. stalow

    stalow New User

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    From what I understand from many of the posts, players retire when they are injured and behind in the match. Wonder how many times players retire when they are injured and AHEAD in the match. If it's hotly contended, the injured player is not usually going to be ahead because he's... uh, injured.

    I've read in several places that people watching Nadal on the practice court noticed his wrist problems a day before the Monaco match. He had his wrist taped during practice and seemed to be "off" then.

    Given the number of matches these guys play and the mental stress of getting deep into a prior tournament, I don't understand why it's so difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt. Some of the guys mentioned above have had significant injuries to recover from and perhaps getting back out there a bit too soon caused retirements in matches that otherwise wouldn't.

    I, personally, wouldn't want their job. If I don't feel well, I wanna go home! :rolleyes:
     
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