Anyone Watched the Bush and Kerry Presidential Debate?

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by gmlasam, Sep 30, 2004.

  1. thejerk

    thejerk Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    472
    Here you go Chad:
    http://dir.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/09/25/medicate/index.html
    You act as if schools are completely blameless. I think your charge of equal education smacks of egalitarianism. You have ceded my point. Isn't that another way of saying everybody is brought down to the lowest common denominator. What would be wrong with trade schools? Would they make it harder to teach kids that everything is relative. Are you one those jokers that teach kids about unequal distribution of wealth.
    Hey Phil, I'll tell you about not having a clue. After I was expelled, I sat at home and studied philosophy, science, classical liturature, and anything else I thought they were teaching in school. When I went to college a couple years later, I didn't have a clue that I would actually be way ahead of the kids who had suffered through public education. I guess classics were to traditional.
    Chad, I don't know about your district or school, but if you say political correctness isn't a problem, I think you must have your head up your arse.
    You and I both know that there are far to many medicated kids. I suppose the ignorant masses you refered to didn't attend public schools. Just wondering, do you support vouchers or should government schools have a monopoly on education?
     
    #51
  2. thejerk

    thejerk Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    472
    Well Phil, as to your last post, capitalism. All those people are rewarded. Do you think all those people would have done what they did for altruistic purposes. Why do medical/pharmaceutical patents come mostly from American companies? Probably because people don't want to waste their time researching things that don't pay.
     
    #52
  3. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,877
    Location:
    In a tent, along the Silk Road
    Fair enough, but I didn't realize that Oscar the Grouch and the rest of the Sesame St. crowd went all that deep into those subjects. Mr. Rogers, MAYBE...Based on your many posts on this board, just about all dealing with politics of some sort, it dosen't seem like you actually HAVE a very solid grounding in philosophy, history or political science. Just my observation-you pretty much regurgitate whatever is the subject of the day on the conservative Websites/weblogs/chatboards. What, exactly did you read at home while Sesame St. and Teletubbies were blaring in the background?
     
    #53
  4. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,877
    Location:
    In a tent, along the Silk Road
    Come again? Of course people are rewarded for their achievements, and why shouldn't they be? That doesn't diminish the achievements themselves.

    As for pharmacutical patents, I'm not sure I understand your comment. Are you saying that drugs don't pay? Other than the oil companies, the pharm companies are probably the most profitable enterprises in the world. Check their stocks. Much of the R&D that they do is government funded or at least subsidised. As usual, you're losing me-you seem unable to stick to a topic without radically changing the subject and going all over the map.
     
    #54
  5. thejerk

    thejerk Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    472
    Don't forget about Big Katsup. Of course drugs pay. When it costs a billion to get a drug to market, it better pay. When I originally replied on this thread, it was because somebody said Kerry brougt the facts. I then wondered about the state of public education, and was then taken off on a tangent by a disgruntled ped-ant.
    Here's a fact Kerry ommitted. This is what happened last time a democrat negotiated with North Korea:
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n12_v29/ai_20089207
    (Notice the fawning reporter. Especially on pg3 )
    Kerry also claims that he would buy spent nuclear fuel from Russia faster than Bush. Why would Russia allow such a cash cow to go so fast. Kerry actually believes Russia will ever give up that kind of leverage. I'm guessing he'd send M. Halfbright over there to drink tea with Puten and all would be well.
    That was the original subject, the debate, remember.
    As far as pharmaceuticals, I'm not a big fan of theirs either....
     
    #55
  6. chad shaver

    chad shaver Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    416
    Jerk,

    You have still not gotten around to a. telling me your profession and b. explaining to me how you inexplicably were accepted into college without a high school diploma or G.E.D.

    All hail Big Brother! So tell me, do the voices in your head tell you that you're deluded, too?
     
    #56
  7. silent bob

    silent bob New User

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Messages:
    93
    Easy, Phil.

    I think you have either misread, misunderstood, or perhaps just deliberately misrepresented my posts.

    1) I clearly stated that America's GRADUATE schools are the BEST in the world, which obviously answers your question as to why the foreigners choose to attend them.

    2) I never used the word "disaster". I used the word "mediocrity".

    3) I never claimed that any of this was a big "problem" for America. In fact, I don't believe that it is a problem because I believe that America can continue to attract all the foreign talent necessary to make up for the deficiencies in its own education system . . .

    4) . . . which brings me to my final point: You are actually wrong about the faculties, which are disproportionately represented by foreigners and immigrants. For example, only about 30% of my Ivy-league professors were American-born. Foreigners and immigrants are disproportionately represented in America's high-tech sectors as well. These are well-documented demographics, and this has been the case for quite some time.

    Just to be clear, I stand by my statement that undergraduates from America's universities - even in the sciences - emerge less numerate and with less expertise in their chosen field than their counterparts in places like Europe and India.

    Does this spell doom for America? No.
    Is thejerk a jerk? Yes.
     
    #57
  8. silent bob

    silent bob New User

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Messages:
    93
    Chad - Apologies.

    Looking back, I can see how my comment would be offensive to a dedicated, hardworking teacher like I suspect you to be. It wasn't meant in that way.

    The point I was trying to make is that we are already relying way too much on altruism. Thank God there are altruistic people that are willing to teach our kids, but if we really care about educating our youth we should make teaching more financially rewarding for people like you.

    If we did that, more of our kids would not have to wait until secondary school to encounter teachers like you, because quite a few of those education majors that I described did get jobs in primary education.
     
    #58
  9. AAAA

    AAAA Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    3,389
     
    #59
  10. PugArePeopleToo

    PugArePeopleToo Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    160
    Hi Bob,
    I don't think it is fair to say other than grad schools our school system sucks. Our school system does not demand students to be able to do esoteric math like those of Asian countries, but our system fosters creative and independent thinking which is more useful in life. Since you are in Asia you must know in order to get into college in China, Taiwan, Korea and Japan students must take an extremely tough college entrance exam. It doesn't matter if you are an A student your entire life, if you did not do well that day, you don't go to college. Asian students' purpose in life for the first 18 years is to pass this test. The pressure on students are tremendous, each year after the exam, it is not uncommon to hear of suicides due to poor testing results. The fact is their school systems are not geared toward teaching and learning, they are geared toward taking this test. The interesting thing is once in college, the rigorous academic demands dropped, students can just coast for the next 4 years. The academic challenges are no more than that of US undergrad schools. I don't find such system to be superior to ours. It may create technical automatons better than we can, but true innovation does not come from such an environment.
     
    #60
  11. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,915
    Location:
    Parts unknown
    Pug i dont think the current education system really fosters independent thinking..it seems to foster team playing and being part of 'the group' more than ever before, which to me stifles independence and precludes the uniquely talented from emerging. i quickly quit coaching a hi school tennis team (i'm not a teacher) because of their policy of everyone making the team....most of these kids didnt even want to play tennis....they just wanted to say they are on the tennis team, and were being disruptive of the ones that really were into tennis. i think thats all unfortunate. this all must radically vary from state to state and school system to school system, but i think we've a generation of naive sheep emerging for the most part...these kids are gonna get a shocking wake up call if they ever turn up in the business world. and where i live here in florida, the high school graduation rate is abyssmal with low standards, home schooling is rampant, and attendence is pretty pathetic.
     
    #61
  12. mlee2

    mlee2 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    249
    Jerk, your posts are by far, the hardest posts to read. Please learn how to use comprehensible sentences and stick to one topic at one time. Please. Not an insult, just a sincere suggestion.

    For someone who "graduated from college" and is well-versed in (insert liberal arts course), you sure don't write like you're educated.
     
    #62
  13. jun

    jun Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    548
    I am from South Korea who ended up going to high school in US and going to undergrad as of now.

    In average, I think asian high schools are more demanding purely due to academic intensity.

    But if top 5~10 highschools in japan or korea were compared to top 5~10 high schools in US, I think american high school could be more difficult. In american high school, you do everything; sports, music, other social activities, study, etc etc etc. And I think by doing that you learn how to balance and prioritize things in your life.

    Undergrad, I think american college in average would be more demanding than college in Asia. I know an exchange student from UK, and the student had trouble getting used to work load....So it may even tougher than ones in UK?

    Anyways, I think calculator should not be allowed in middle school, and high school. I once tutored a college student who had trouble multiplying 6*8.......And she wasn't exactly "dumb" in other areas....
     
    #63
  14. chad shaver

    chad shaver Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    416
    jun,

    Thanks for chiming in here. It never entered my mind to ask if there were someone here with experience in both American and non-American schools.

    You're right about the calculators, too.

    Thanks again.
     
    #64
  15. Hedges

    Hedges Guest

    I think our schools are not so bad. However, the US marketeers teach us to be consumers...the best in the world. The price of capitalism, I suppose. The end result is we grow up to be overcommitted, stressed out, overmedicated, shells of what we could be...because we've been programmed to consume. We are slaves to our need to consume. Like dumb cows, we get 2 weeks of vacation/year! What a joke!

    I think our political system sucks. Sure...it could be worse...but it should be better.

    I think Bush will win...but for unconstitutional reasons. Most of the country believe religion and government go together. Seperation of church and state is no longer. Bush bases his decisions on a magic spirit that tells him what to do. And *that's* why he'll win. Yikes!

    Funny how religion drives our country to war. Things that should make you go "hmmmm".

    Fortunately, we'll all be gone in 50 years or so...so, I guess it's really nothing to get all bent out of shape about. Life is really all about tennis, you know!
     
    #65
  16. PugArePeopleToo

    PugArePeopleToo Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    160
    Mojo, like jun, I was born in Taiwan, but went to a very good public high school and college in the US. When I started in high school my math and science skills were way above that of average kids, but there were always that 1% native born kids that just blew me away. I think the overly politically correct emphasis on the group was a trend that came and went, and truly talented students do shine in our environment, both academically and in the athletic field. I think we have always worried about our education system. In the 60s, we didn't have enough engineers to counter the growing missile gap; in the 70s Japan was going to take over the world. Critics then pointed out how poor our schools were, and how our kids were dumb, fat, and lazy, and can't compete. Now the same pundits are busy explaining what went wrong in the former USSR and in Japan and at the same time predict how China is going to eat us for lunch, and how our kids are dumber, fatter, lazier and can't compete against the rest of the world. I am not sure why people here and abroad have a tendency to under estimate American. Don't these people ever wonder how is it possible that the same dumb, fat, non-worldly slobs have created the most vibrant and innovative economy the world has ever witnessed? If you ask me, one of the reasons is our education system.
     
    #66
  17. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,915
    Location:
    Parts unknown
    thanks for the post Pugs....i only am passing on what i've observed, and stated that i am sure things vary from area to area in the US. i'm older and when i made the basketball team it meant something because you had to earn your way onto the team.then when i became a starter, i was one of the 5 best best in the school, etc etc...now there really isnt so much distinction it seems <in many cases>. anyone can say they are on the tennis team <in many cases because all you have to do is show up for practice and sit in the bleachers> and that stifles kids from working hard to improve IMO, or alternatively them not making the team, thus sending them off to another direction in which they can truly excel. i think what you are maybe referring to is that the US has always welcomed people from other walks of life and have invited them to contribute, as evidenced by you being here right now. you can get the best and the brightest in that manner perhaps.........
     
    #67
  18. chad shaver

    chad shaver Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    416
    Pug,

    Nice post.
     
    #68
  19. PugArePeopleToo

    PugArePeopleToo Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    160
    Mojo, I think you are right, it differs from school to school. In my situation, both of my kids play lacrosse in high school. Although anyone can be on the team, if you don't have talent you are a bench warmer, and you get to play during garbage time. Not only that, if you are disruptive or are having a negative impact on the team, other kids can vote you out of the team. In another word, you can't just show up and sit in the bleachers, you have to participate and show effort.

    While it is true our system attracts the best and the brightest from other countries, I feared I am not one of them. I've met many native born that are smarter, better educated, harder working, not to mention play better tennis than me....but none are as good looking.
     
    #69
  20. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,915
    Location:
    Parts unknown
    yea but Pug? you look like a Pug???!! <teasing>. there is always someone smarter and stronger and faster, unless you are roger federer of course:). thanks for your considerate post...it's nice to be a part of a thoughful and considerate post where it is fine to agree to disagree. Ed
     
    #70
  21. jun

    jun Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    548
    I think American education results in much more logical thinking and creative thinking. Most of times, students are welcomed to discuss issues in classes, are free and requred to express their opinions and thoughts. Also they are required to express these in writings whether it's an literature essay or history report.
    In addition, they have many other opportunies to display their other qualities such as leadership etc etc.

    And some of talented kids are able to really take advantage of the education system, and are able to excel.

    On the other hand, in many countries in Asia, you are usually require to focus on academicsonly. As the system has changed, the focus is on logical thinking and understanding rather than brute force memorization. Yet it's far behind the level of Amercian education.....
     
    #71
  22. perfmode

    perfmode Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,767
    Not true. I don't know what school you went to. Most of the schools around here are just like the Asian schools you are describing.
     
    #72
  23. jun

    jun Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    548
    Well
    at least when I studied in korea (up until middle school), exams were based on all multiple choices, and a few short answeres that most of us simply memorized. It's been a few years, and I have heard it's changed a little bit. In middle school, I went to school from 8~3:30, and then till 5:30 when I was senior. In high school I would have had to go to school from 8~9pm and 10pm in my senior year. No sports no nothing.

    In US, i was forced(?) to write essays in English, and history. I gave presentations and so on. In classes, students questioned and shared opinions (of course only a few of us did it).

    I think US education system and asian (at least korean) education is contrasting..
     
    #73
  24. PugArePeopleToo

    PugArePeopleToo Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    160
    Perfmode, they are VERY different. Over here, if you are to write a paper about our nation’s leader, you can say Bush is a war criminal and if you can back you position up with facts, you will probably get an A. If you take a similar position over there, you will get a good thrashing. If you tell your parents why you were caned in school, you will probably get another one from your parents.
     
    #74
  25. jun

    jun Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    548
    LOL

    very good point.. I can't believe how people can get away with doing satired on their own president ON NATIONAL TV. In Korea, they would be seriously "reprimanded". Another great thing is how companies rip each other apart in commercials. In Korea, they will be instantly sued.....It's also surprising that in a country where people sue for mosquito bites, they can't or choose not to sue for such things.
    [/quote]
     
    #75
  26. thejerk

    thejerk Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    472
    mlee2, most of my posts are from work. I get about 15 to 30 seconds to type every 8 or 9 minutes. I sometimes start typing before I check to see where I am at, and then, if I am messed up somewhere I try to squeeze things into context. Not always with success I'll admit. I don't have time to really edit what I am typing because I am also using this computer for other things and I frequently have to reboot. Imagine spending time with a long post and then having to reboot before you post it. Even T connection are unstable.
     
    #76

Share This Page