Anyone who plays sports knows that 24 hours is enough to recover

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by WhiskeyEE, May 17, 2009.

  1. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    You don't need a rest day after a long 3 setter. Although I'll admit that Rafa looked like crap, his match with joker had nothing to do with that. A 4 hour tennis match won't cause premature fatigue 24 hours later. Get real people.
     
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  2. tennis-hero

    tennis-hero Banned

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    he lost because he was outplayed

    he didn't get a look at the serve

    and LOOK HOW WELL ROG CONVERTED BREAK POINTS

    THAT WAS THE DIFFERENCE¬!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  3. Roddickalltheway

    Roddickalltheway New User

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    roger played well today. I still don't think he will stand a chance and RG though, that is Rafa's house.
     
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  4. T1000

    T1000 Hall of Fame

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    Rafa fans need an excuse for this so they're gonna use the obvious one, he was tired. Most of the match was bouncing the ball and wasting time between points. The match may have been 3 hours tops with out all that nonsense
     
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  5. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    Exactly. Roger didn't choke his chances away and, when Rafa got his chance late in the 2nd set, he choked!

    Agreed that his chances are slim, but I've still gotta believe. He's gotta be mentally perfect to win.
     
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  6. Schills

    Schills Rookie

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    Agreed. It was only a 3 setter. These guys are so well conditioned that the three sets wouldn't have been that big a deal. They push harder on a typical practice day than the effort required in a 3 set match.

    Having said that, I think Nadal may have been breaking down in the semis. Didn't he call for a trainer to attend to his leg during that match?
     
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  7. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    I personally think that Nadal was playing below his best level the whole tourney.All of Verdasco,Novak and Fed had their chances against him but of those 3 only Fed capitalized.That's just my opinion,before some rabid fanboy jumps at me.
     
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  8. bolo

    bolo G.O.A.T.

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    24hrs wasn't enough in chennai in 2008.
     
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  9. Rhino

    Rhino Legend

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    Everyone is saying that. Same as everyone said he wouldn't stand a chance in Madrid today.
     
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  10. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    He had less then 24 hours then; don't bend facts. Chennai SF with Moya went into about 3 a.m. in the morning.
     
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  11. ag200boy

    ag200boy Hall of Fame

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    in a major, 3 sets is an easy match and they are ready to play 12 hours later.

    in other tournaments (especially when nadal loses) 3 sets is practically a marathon and AT LEAST 48 hours is needed until the next match.

    My question is, why do the pros, who clearly have superior fitness, think that 24 hours isn't enough, while juniors don't complain about 2-3 matches over the course of 8-10 hours?
     
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  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Federer seems to have recovered from mono :wink:
     
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  13. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    I agree.

    I don't have the level of conditioning close to a pro tennis player. Yet, I was able to play 6 hours of volleyball (tournament) and then 3 more hours of volleyball the next day without much trouble. I slept 10 hours inbetween, though.

    That's intense playing, not fooling around. Oh, and a day before I played 2 hours of tennis. A day after I played 2 hours of tennis.

    After that I took a day off cause I felt that I'm getting tired.

    I tend to agree somewhat with that.
     
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  14. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    It was a bit under 24 hours from the end of the semi to the beginning of the final so it was the same story as the Chennai final when Youhzny beat Nadal 6-0 6-1 the day after Nadal played a 4 hour match. Nadal needed another day to recover. And then factor in the knee troubles on top of that.

    Nadal also stated that he was tired for the Fed match after the 4 hour match. Though he did say Fed was better in the semi for having an 80 minute match v Del Potro compared to his 4 hour match. But we all know Joker is way tougher than Del Potro on clay.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
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  15. Toxicmilk

    Toxicmilk Professional

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    Although I am under the opinion that Federer's win was a very well deserved win. I have to disagree somewhat with the OP. It's not just the Djoker match than tired out Nadal (although it didnt help him either) ; his "exhaustion" was caused by playing constantly...not just from one match. But that's something Nadal did to himself, playing the way he does.
     
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  16. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    So are you saying that Nadal isn't all that fit?
     
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  17. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    That's one match. He's had to play on back to back days numerous times over the years, even after 3 set matches. Yet he gets beat by Fed and people look at the one other time it happened and call it evidence. He's bound to lose sometimes the day after playing a 3 setter. That doesn't mean he was fatigued.

    I don't disagree with that. You can overtrain your CNS, which will cause chronic fatigue. But a single match isn't significant.
     
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  18. delphi17

    delphi17 Rookie

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    this thread is a fail...
    it doesnt really factor in the altitude the match has been played,
    and the possible extension of hrs needed to rest, as more stress has been placed on the body..
     
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  19. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    2200 feet is nothing. I lived at that altitude for years and when I go back home to visit I never notice when playing tennis and training / running there. Nadal is obviously much fitter than me.
     
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  20. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    ATP level and glycogen stores recover in 24 hours at any altitude. Lactic acid levels have gone back to normal, oxygen levels are normal, etc. Muscle fatigue isn't significant from 4 hours of tennis. So maybe you could elaborate on how what you said is even significant. 24 hours is MORE than enough for a world class athlete.
     
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  21. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    The match was at 2200 feet? lol... I live at 2200 feet EXACTLY (Edmonton, Canada). This is not a high altitude, at all... the difference in oxygen density is not a big factor.
     
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  22. delphi17

    delphi17 Rookie

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    you werent playing a 4 hr 3 set match with nole , right?
    and you didnt need to play with federer 24 hrs later right?
    unless you can say u train at 100% at your limit, for 4 hrs straight..

    ATP lvl can recover in 24 hrs, but it is often no enough, also when your body is not conditioned slowly into that altitude.
    Also being the medical genius you are, you should know that ATP recovery requires as much amount of oxygen as possible, and wow, guess what high altitude lacks?
    Watch the argentina soccer game, they were so much more superior skill-wise, yet they were completely destroyed.
    The fact is this thread fails to address any kind of injury that nadal maybe be carrying with him, also the intensity that are being pushe
     
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  23. delphi17

    delphi17 Rookie

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    try playing at a top competition for your lvl at LA or somewhere along the coast line , with only 2-3 weeks to prepare ?
     
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  24. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    It is always enough, actually. Assuming that the person is healthy. It recovers in no more than a few hours, at any altitude. My point is that since 24 hours is so much more than what is needed, that the difference in oxygen density is not relevant. It might take 4 hours instead of 3 hours to replenish everything; big deal.

    And my thread is about fatigue, not injury, so obviously I would not address that. And I'm assuming complete fatigue. You can't fatigue yourself enough in 4 hours to not be able to recover in 24 hours.

    edit: I don't even think that the oxygen density would make a difference in recovery at all. His body would just force him to breath harder/faster and he'd recover in the same amount of time.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
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  25. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    What are you smoking man? They were taking 45 seconds on average between each point. That is not even CLOSE to 4 hours of actual exercise.

    If I was doing that for 4 hours I would be BORED and irritated. When I am on court I like hitting balls not fixing my hair, shorts, bouncing the ball 20 times, etc etc.

    I don't have the info for the whole match, but I have it for the tiebreak. Here you go, copied from another post -

    I am a little bit bored, so here's the time breakdown for those that wonder.

    1. Ace Djoker | 0-1 | 40 seconds
    2. Unreturnable serve Nadal | 1-1 | 40 seconds
    3. Short non-intense rally ends with Djoker UE | 44 seconds | 2-1
    4. 1-2 combo Djoker winner | 2-2 | 31 seconds
    5. Unreturnable serve Djoker | 2-3 | 39 seconds
    6. Long rally ended by easy Nadal CCBH winner | 3-3 | <3-3 changeover, don't know how long that took> | 1 minute+ (my guess because just the ball bouncing by Nadal took 31 seconds)
    7. Pretty unintense but long rally ended with Nadal UE | 3-4 | 54 seconds
    8. 2 shot rally ended by Djoker UE | 4-4 | 36 seconds
    9. Not a great approach shot from Djokovic succeeds by Nadal UE | 4-5 | 48 seconds
    10. Unreturnable serve Nadal | 5-5 | 48 seconds
    11. Good rally ended by Nadal UE | 5-6 -> MP#1 Djoker | 52 seconds
    12. Good rally ended by Nadal Winner | 6-6 | <6-6 changeover, don't know how long that took> | 1+ minute (Guessing, since from the moment Nadal gets to his chair and gets a drink alone it's 47 seconds)
    13. Good rally ended by Djokovic forcing an error from Nadal | 6-7 -> MP#2 Djoker | 55 seconds
    14. Great rally ended by Nadal winner | 7-7 | 66 seconds
    15. Unreturnable serve Nadal | 8-7 -> MP#1 Nadal | 54 seconds
    16. Crowd gives a big cheer when Novak misses his first serve :( Good drop shot + passing shot winner Djoker | 8-8 | 47 seconds
    17. Unreturnable serve Djoker | 8-9 | 45 seconds
    18. Unreturnable serve Nadal | 9-9 | <changeover that's fully visible> | 1 minute 21 seconds
    19. 1-2 combo winner Nadal | 10-9 -> MP#2 Nadal | 44 seconds
    20. Djokovic hesitates about coming in and is caught in no man's land by a routine Nadal FH | 11-9 | It's over.

    The maximum allowed total time between the points for a tiebreak with 20 points is 25*19 = 475 seconds or roughly 8 minutes. The time actually taken by players between the points here is 885 seconds or roughly 15 minutes. The total tiebreak duration was about 20 minutes. Therefore, tennis was actually played during at most one quarter of the tiebreak duration.

    That's not good for the sport and that's not how it should be in my opinion. Could this have anything to do with this match being the longest best of 3 match ever? A resounding yes.
     
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  26. delphi17

    delphi17 Rookie

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    without going into way too medical terms ,
    the lack of oxygen = lack of NAD+ and FAD = lack of citric acid cycle,
    as nadal's body is conditioned to conditions of abundance of oxygen,
    the body works in a different state and way.
    It does take longer for body to recover if there is a lack of oxygen.
    That you cannot argue..
    And what you are saying about 4 hrs instead of 3 hrs..
    thats a jump of 33% increase in duration..
    put that 33% on top of 24 hrs
     
    #26
  27. vndesu

    vndesu Hall of Fame

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    thats true but then look at the ao. fed played roddick and spanked him while nadal played verdasco and had a very long match but still prevailed at the finals.

    im not trying to start anything but if you look at the facts it still leads to federer just out playing nadal.
     
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  28. delphi17

    delphi17 Rookie

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    45 secs ?
    You should report that to the organisations..
    Because the rules says maximum of 20-25 seconds..
     
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  29. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    There is a difference between physical tiredness and mental tiredness. The match vs Djoko was not only long, it was also extremely intense (physically) and as I said yesterday this was NOT an AO situation, 1 day makes a huge difference for recovery. It was a Chennai 2008 situation, very long, tense and emotional match, little energy left the next day. Now Nadal has also played a lot recently and to the physical aspect, one has to add the mental one: Nadal won 3 titles in a row, this week he hit his limits (regardless of conditions). Everyone has some, he wasn't going to win every single tournament week in week out, I don't care what the surface is.
    For Federer, it is a great win, he played very well this week and reestablished himself as a major contender for RG and big events in general, it was his first master shield win since 2007, it's bound to give his confidence a big boost in Paris. If Fed can maintain or even improve that return to shape, the next few months could be extremely exciting and competitive with Nadal going strong, Djoko improving and Fed closer to his best form.
     
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  30. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    You don't need to lecture me on introductory micro. The 4 hours intead of 3 was a gross exaggeration. And since, as I already said, it doesn't take anywhere near 24 hours, the O2 density isn't relevant.
     
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  31. delphi17

    delphi17 Rookie

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    first of all, i didnt lecture you, i kept it very simple.
    second of all, I cant assume your 4 hrs instead of 3 was an exaggeration,
    because your, everyone should recover in 24 hrs is nothing but an exaggeration.
    the recommended duration of recovery for any single-competitor sport event, (i.e non team sport) is 48 hrs.
    A slight difference to your 24 hrs is enough for anyone who plays sport.
     
    #31
  32. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    That's to avoid CNS fatigue and wear on tendons, etc. which takes several days, if not weeks, to accumulate. A couple days of back to back tennis isn't going to cause either of those.
     
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  33. delphi17

    delphi17 Rookie

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    the intensity is the issue.
    we are not exposed to the intensity that nadal had to play to win the semi.

    Nadal said he is tired, frankly, so am I?
    I think people will decide based on their own experience, if 24 hrs is enough for them to recover after they had a match that stretched them to the limits.
     
    #33
  34. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    After the Verdasco match he had a whole extra day to recover. That was the difference compared to Madrid and Channai where teh finals wree the next day less than 24 hours after a 4 hour match. These 4 hour matches were the longest 3 set matches on the atp in 15 years.
     
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  35. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    If he was tired, it's more likely due to the combined effects of constant tennis over the previous weeks, not from a single match. The point of this thread was to say that Nadal was no fresher for Novak than he was for Fed, so for people to quit acting like Nadal vs. Joker was the real final. Rafa could be suffering from fatigue, since he didn't look great against fed. But the Joker match had little, if anything, to do with that.
     
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  36. icedevil0289

    icedevil0289 Legend

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    as far as playing the amount of tournaments he played, don't you think that its kind of his fault though? I definitely think he should manage his schedule better. Everyone keeps saying nadal is tired and this and that, and no doubt he was, but I think that it is his partially his fault. He does not need to play as many tournaments as he has. Just my two cents.
     
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  37. brc444

    brc444 New User

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    While Nadal did have a long semi the day before, he did have some recent rest -- he did not play in a tournament the week before and he had a walkover in the round of 16 (did not play Thursday).
     
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  38. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Madrid would have been the ideal tournament to skip but it was Spain and it was a master 1000, so...
    Very selfishly as a spectator, I'm glad the semi Djoko-Nadal happened, it was extraordinary drama, the last tie-break was unreal, it was the kind of moments that make me love tennis.
     
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  39. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    Yes, yes, and yes. If you keep going hard week after week it catches up to you big time. I know, it has happened to me.
     
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  40. bladepdb

    bladepdb Professional

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    You ever played a 4 hour 3-setter facing 3 match points against one of the hardest hitters in tennis off both wings?

    Thought not.
     
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  41. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    In this case i think it was all physical. The muscles just cant contract properly if they havn't recovered. It was a replica of Chennai. Chennai was right at the beginning of the season and yet he still couldn't recover due to the length and intensity of the 4 hour semi.

    Then there's the knee problem, the pain was very serious the day before and he said he couldn't push of his leg properly and was worried about it recovering for the final. We don't know how well it did recover.

    As we saw in the Chennai final v Youhzny, and in the Rotterdam final v Murray, Nadal isnt the type of guy that pulls out of finals even if he's less than fit for the final.
     
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  42. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    You ever played a tennis match where you were taking an AVERAGE of 45 seconds between every point?

    Hope not.

    You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.
     
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  43. bladepdb

    bladepdb Professional

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    I probably would be if I had been fighting for 3+ hrs and was in the last tiebreak. Isn't that what you were timing anyway? Seems a little unjust to tmie the last tiebreak but not the average times in the first set.
     
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  44. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Absolutely. He was right not to push himself with that leg. Giving up RG for the sake of winning Madrid would have been absurd. I think he couldn't afford at all to make it any worse, that's why he wasn't moving that well and Fed had a field day with the drop shots.
     
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  45. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    I sure don't have enough time to time the whole thing. My main point is that both players wasted a lot of time in this match by doing things which were not playing tennis. You cannot say that this was an exhausting 4 hour match because much of those 4 hours were relaxation time. This included 2 injury time outs.
     
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  46. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    You don't need to in order to exert yourself comparably.
     
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  47. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Maybe physically but you can't ignore the emotional draining from a match like this one. It's the combination of the 2 that makes it lethal.
     
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  48. delphi17

    delphi17 Rookie

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    just watch how far nadal was pushed physically and mentally in the match against Nole.

    Yet, you are talking like you could actually be doing it, if you could, maybe we should be watching you play..
     
    #48
  49. bladepdb

    bladepdb Professional

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    Physically, sure, but mentally they are still planning and executing.

    Some of you here are oversimplifying the sport of tennis. Playing at teh club/local league level or even the college level is BARELY the tip of the iceberg. The pros are constantly strategizing and warding off powerful shots from the opponent. Moreover, they are running from sideline to sideline, baseline to net, all the while hitting draining shots that literally take the breath out of you each time you hit one. On top of that, they are still mentally planning and executing, keeping their focus on the ball and the match!

    You'd definitely be quite the physical specimen if you could do this for on and off repetitively for four hours and wake up without soreness the next day.
     
    #49
  50. delphi17

    delphi17 Rookie

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    agree.. i think the dude watched too much episodes of "heroes"
     
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