April 17th Rankings

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by TopDawg, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. TopDawg

    TopDawg Legend

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    Men's National Team Rankings
    Administered by the ITA
    NCAA Division I Tennis  
    April 17, 2012  

    Rank Avg School LW
    1 86.73 University of Southern California 1
    2 75.53 University of Virginia 3
    3 75.42 Ohio State University 2
    4 75.06 University of Georgia 4
    5 70.60 UCLA 6
    6 66.95 University of Kentucky 7
    7 63.67 Pepperdine 8
    8 61.49 Duke University 5
    9 58.54 Mississippi State University 9
    10 53.10 University of Florida 10
    11 52.57 University of Oklahoma 13
    12 47.70 Stanford University 11
    13 47.32 University of Mississippi 14
    14 45.99 California 12
    15 39.39 University of Texas 17
    16 39.32 University of Tennessee 15
    17 38.87 Auburn University 16
    18 38.45 North Carolina 18
    19 35.29 Louisiana State University 21
    20 33.02 University of Illinois 23
    21 32.58 University of Michigan 22
    22 32.27 Texas Tech University 20
    23 31.71 University of Tulsa 26
    24 31.05 Harvard University 24
    25 29.23 University of San Diego 19

    Click here for the rest
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
    #1
  2. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    The singles computer rankings continue to baffle me. Johnson has beaten ranked opponents while Frank beats unranked opponents and the gap between them has widened in Franks favor?
     
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  3. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    As discussed before, the rankings place weight on your best N wins, where N gradually increases throughout the spring. Perhaps Frank's Nth best win is better than Johnson's. Frank's top N wins a week ago probably did not include a pretty good win in the fall, and now N increases by one and he picks up that fall win into the top-N-wins factor.

    When you win the ITA All-American and the ITA Indoors, you pick up ten wins, all against ranked players. Take a look at the highest-ranked opponents that Frank and Johnson have defeated. How strong is the Pac-12 this year? Set N=5 (just to choose a random number) and see what the top N wins are for each. Should we rank Johnson #1 because we all know he is the top college player?

    After not playing in the fall, Johnson had some DNF results at the team indoor. No doubt he was about to win those matches against ranked players, but did not. Lots of factors are going against Johnson. The big one is that he skipped the fall. I think his attitude is that he does not care what effect that had on his ranking. Perhaps the rest of us should not sweat it any more than he does.
     
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  4. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    Glad to see Yannick Maden climb back up to 64. Will probably need one decent win in the ACC tourney to solidify an individual tournament appearance.
     
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  5. TopDawg

    TopDawg Legend

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    #5
  6. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    You know it just bugs me that a system exists where a player who is the 2nd or 3rd best on his team can be ranked #1 in the country.
     
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  7. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    The rankings are a guide when it comes to making a line up. Has he actually played his team mates ahead of him in the line up this year?
     
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  8. merlebo02

    merlebo02 Rookie

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    why is Ga ahead of Ky when Ky beat them in the regular season??
     
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  9. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I get how the system works. The system is broken. It should either be on rolling 12 months or spring separate from fall. If the spring NCAA's use a ranking system for selection that rewards fall results, it is bad. The fall is not the competition season.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
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  10. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Silly, isn't it?
     
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  11. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Makes the BCS football rankings look genius.
     
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  12. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    ....touche
     
    #12
  13. The Wreck

    The Wreck Semi-Pro

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    Because Georgia beat Ohio State and also made the semi's of the national indoors, going a round further than Kentucky. Kentucky doesn't have a big win outside of Georgia, and they lost to Baylor, which hurts.
     
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  14. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    Very true.
     
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  15. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    questions like this just make my head hurt

    seriously, you looked at one single match and decided the two teams must be ranked based on who won that matchup?

    why isn't fresno state ahead of stanford?

    why isn't baylor ahead of kentucky?

    why do some humans not have a brain larger than my dog's?
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
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  16. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Steve Johnson's best ten wins:

    #9 Sebastian Fanselow
    #12 Chase Buchanan
    #17 Daniel Nguyen
    #21 Nick Meister (twice)
    #22 Kyle McMorrow
    #29 Sadio Doumbia
    #31 Ryan Thacher
    #33 Alexis Klegou
    #37 Bob van Overbeek

    Mitchell Frank's best ten wins:

    #4 Henrique Cunha
    #7 Dennis Nevolo (twice)
    #11 Wil Spencer
    #12 Chase Buchanan
    #13 Costin Paval
    #14 Alex Musialek
    #17 Daniel Nguyen (twice)
    #36 Chris Mengel

    Rankings are current, which is how the ITA figures rankings, not the rankings at the time of the match.
     
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  17. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    ^^^this is the problem. All 10 of Frank's best wins were in the fall. All 10 of Johnson's were in the spring. The NCAAs competition season is in the spring.

    The system is bad, not the mathematical output of the bad system.
     
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  18. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I sat and watched your Duke women get handled by the Gators and currently Duke women are 2 and Florida 3. And this is because Stanford beat us and then lost to #1 UCLA, compounded by a relatively weak Pac12 conference from 5th place down.

    So, yea...I look at the 1 match result of UF women beating Duke handily and think UF is better. And I think the rankings should reflect a higher ranking for the better team.
     
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  19. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    If you want to compete against the best in college, you show up at the premier tournaments in the fall. In the spring, who knows how many top players you will even have a chance to play? The fall tournaments are a level playing field. If you are from a weaker conference but you are a great player, you get to prove it. Throwing out the fall results would be terrible for certain players. As with most gripe sessions, the "solutions" have as many drawbacks as the current system.

    Question: Why is a Florida fan complaining every week about Steve Johnson being below Mitchell Frank, when Steve Johnson himself probably does not even care?
     
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  20. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Dodge the National Team Indoors, you pay the price. Miss the fall tournaments, whether by injury (e.g. Alex Domijan, Bradley Klahn) or by choice (e.g. Steve Johnson), and you pay a price in the rankings.
     
    #20
  21. TennisFan2Day

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    The entire system is flawed. How is a team in the top 25 when they haven't beaten a team above them and they have lost to #36 and #45? They also do not have a player in the top 125 in singles.

    It will be a horribly flawed system until they start ranking every player and team all the way down. If it is all being run by a computer after a certain point then I don't understand the problem. A computer doesn't care if there are 125 players or 1000 players.

    The other thing that needs to stop is the DNF when a team wins the 4th point. I watched a coach intentionally slow down a match that his player was losing and as soon as the 4th point was won that was the end of it. I know coaches agree on this before a match starts but it shouldn't happen when the players are ranked.
     
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  22. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Don't know Johnson, just have tons of respect for his game. Don't care if he cares or not, I just like to see the player on a 57 match winning streak get referred to as #1.
     
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  23. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    Overall strength of resume is better for Georgia. If Ga v. Ky. was the first or second match of the season and Ga was ranked higher, I'd understand the objection.

    But, it always surprises me when people are "surprised" or "confused" at team A being ranked above team B, despite team B winning the head to head, after 3/4 of the season has passed and there are a lot of matches to consider.

    We see this in sports all the time.
     
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  24. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Perhaps every team below them has a record that is no better. Before you say that team A should not be ranked #23, or whatever, you need to have an example in mind of who should be ranked #23 instead of them. Then we can all look at that team's record and see what we think of it.
     
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  25. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    the problem is that a set of rankings that fits every head to head matchup at this point in the season is realistically not possible

    how would you rank UK? the 'you' that saw UK-Stanford or UK-Baylor match would have a pretty big argument with the 'you' that saw UK-UGA

    likewise, how about Cal on the women's side? how would you rank Cal based on watching them get blown out by Duke? how would you rank Cal based on watching them beat UCLA? same ranking for both?

    you can keep claiming your system is better than an overall body of work system if it makes you feel better about the UF women not being ahead of Duke, but your system as a whole fails the practicality test, as anyone with a 2nd grade understanding of logic could tell you
     
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  26. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    yup, do these people really not understand the basics of competition / sports? does federer win every head to head match he plays? should he be ranked lower than anyone that beats him in a head to head match because he was thus proven to be 'worse'?

    unreal
     
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  27. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    hooray logic, well put
     
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  28. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    what team are you talking about?
     
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  29. The Wreck

    The Wreck Semi-Pro

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    I personally think margin of victory should be incorporated into rankings. It's pretty obvious to me that a 4-3 loss should not be as penalized as much as a 7-0 loss. Unfortunately, that'll never be feasible because not all matches are played to completion.

    As far as individual rankings go, I think fall wins should still count. But I think that once dual matches start, then those fall wins should lose some relative weight.
     
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  30. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    this is the one change i think i would make to the rankings (if it were possible - but like you say this would require an overhaul where all matches are played to completion - resulting in some missed flights, decreased time for studying or other activities, etc for these student-athletes)

    it would be easy to introduce a few constants - the amount of points subtracted for losing to team #20 is some number 'x' right now

    i would like to see it be something like:
    - subtract 0.65x for a 4-3 loss
    - subtract x for a 5-2 loss
    - subtract 1.3x for a 6-1 loss
    - subtract 1.5x for a 7-0 loss

    something similar could of course be done for wins

    the result: rankings would be less volatile, since winning a match 4-3 in a 3rd set TB in the deciding match vs losing the same match would have a much narrower points swing

    but yeah, again, this would require changes not very desirable for the limited time these student-athletes have away from the game
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
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  31. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Not only should margin of victory be considered, but home and away should as well. Volleyball has an unofficial system that is quite good at predicting outcomes....

    http://middlehitter.com/middlehitter/MHPR/Rankings/Pablo_Rankings_FAQ-MHPR_Version.pdf
     
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  32. TennisFan2Day

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    The team I am talking about is Harvard. I would say Baylor, Notre Dame, Texas A&M, Fresno State, Indiana and Louisville are all stronger. I was at the match with Indiana and they were looking horrible in that match and still won.

    I'm really surprised UCSD is where they are at to be honest with you, given their schedule and results.

    I agree that strength of schedule really needs to be taken into account.
     
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  33. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    Yeah I agree. A lot of the Ivy league schools seem to have inflated ranks. Like Columbia at 37 was ridiculous. Which means if they beat each other the rankings remain inflated.
     
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  34. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    harvard is a big surprise. they have always been a punching bag for bigger division 1 schools. maybe they lowered their admission standards.
    Stanford to move into top 10 after the win this weekend against Cal and needs a good seeding to give themselves a shot at the title.
     
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  35. TennisFan2Day

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    That's my whole point.
     
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  36. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Well, if Harvard looked horrible while beating Indiana, then we need a ranking system where we just pretend that Indiana won the match, and put Indiana ahead of Harvard. That would satisfy everyone. :)
     
    #36
  37. TennisFan2Day

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    I think you misunderstood. Indiana beat Harvard, when Indiana wasn't looking so good.
     
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