Are Federer's Masters Seriest Tournaments Won Worth More Than Nadal's 21

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by McEnroeisanartist, Oct 22, 2012.

  1. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Still probably about the same. Clay court GOAT >>>>> run of the mill clay court specialists. You as a **** who argues Federer as the 2nd or 3rd best clay courter ever shoudnt even be speculating on some imagined clay court speicalist cutting into Nadal's title count on clay. :lol:

    Rome and Monte Carlo, in fact Monte Carlo is a bigger automatic for Nadal than Rome is, he could probably win Monte Carlo when he is 35, and Madrid is changing its surface to normal clay after the complaints not only from ATP players but by WTA players too.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2012
    #51
  2. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    I know.. just messing with kids around here. That is all.
     
    #52
  3. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Off the top of my head:

    Fed won IW from 04-06, and this year. Miami in 05 and 06. He won Hamburg in 02, 04, 05, and 07, Canada in 04 and 06, Cincy in 05, 07, 09, 10, and 12, Madrid in 06 (indoor HC), 09, and 12, (clay), and Paris (indoor HC) last year.

    So that's 13 on hardcourt, 6 on clay, and 2 on indoor hardcourt for Fed.

    Nadal won IW in 07, and 09, MC from 05-12, Rome from 05-07, then 09-10, then this year. He won Madrid in 05 (indoor HC), and '10 (clay). Hamburg in 08, and Canada in 05, and 08.

    So that's 16 on clay, 4 on HC, and 1 on indoor HC for Nadal.

    To answer the question. No. The players can't really control the format. Nadal will probably surpass Fed in MS/1000 titles eventually anyway. I would've liked there to be at least 1 1000 level tournament on grass, but history can't be changed now.
     
    #53
  4. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    Monte Carlo, Shanghai and Paris are the three worst Masters on tour.

    MC: Non-mandatory
    Shanghai: USO hang-over
    Paris: Too close to the WTF
     
    #54
  5. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    LOL at your sig!!
     
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  6. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Shanghai was played 4 weeks after USO.
     
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  7. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Agreed Nadal's 21 is worth far more then Fed's.
    But Fed does have 6 YEC to ZERO for Nadal.
     
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  8. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Masters is masters why would one be worth more???
     
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  9. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Logical questions are not allowed! :)
     
    #59
  10. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    None is. However, should you win 9, for example, getting one of each would obviously be more impressive than winning 9 of one and underperforming in the other 8. ;)
     
    #60
  11. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    both Hamburg and MC should have been lest as they were. Hamburg got dumped for crappy Madrid and MC should never have been demoted to a non mandatory masters. That idea makes no sense, if you want one non mandatory masters, let each player decide which one they don't want to play.
     
    #61
  12. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    come on dude, Federer will proabably have the most slams, why does he have to have the most masters as well? Just accept nadal will have that record. Nadal is a great player, it wouldn't be right if he didn't have a few top records of his own.
     
    #62
  13. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Consider Nadal is lucky to have 3 MS on his best surface and Fed has zero MS on his best surface.
     
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  14. DoubleDeuce

    DoubleDeuce Hall of Fame

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    Fallacy,

    Out of 8, how many wins over Djok and Fed?
     
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  15. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    No, that's why players can opt out to play ATP500 as a replacement, which MC draw will never be as competitive as other MS(eg IW, Cinci).
     
    #65
  16. kragster

    kragster Hall of Fame

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    Or you can say Fed has 6 MS on his 2nd best surface - hardcourt(assuming grass is his best) and Nadal has 6 MS on his worst surface.

    (Please don't mention indoor, indoor is not a surface, it is a tournament condition. I think Nadal would do quite alright in an indoor clay tournament).
     
    #66
  17. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    3 finals with Federer, 2 with Djokovic. 5 out of 8 is pretty good..
     
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  18. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    you mean 6 on his worst - clay. Federer has 15 on hardcourt I think. Nadal and Federer have similar numbers. I do think Federer would have more if there were grass masters but to have grass masters you'd probably have to remove some hardcourt ones to fit them in, and if that was the case he wound't gain that much.
     
    #68
  19. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I agree, I am just going by **** logic that MC being a non mandatory now makes it a joke, then what would that say for Hamburg which is now a 250. I agree they shouldnt have changed anything. The ATP had an idea which was a really bad one, and then tried to rearrange it and it looks like even more of a mess.

    I do wonder if the Hamburg demotion was due to the Seles stabbing, but probably not as it was so many years in the future. I would have elminated Hamburg from hosting any mens or womens tournament ever again after that right after it happened. However as that didnt happpen, and it is many years into the future, and there hasnt been a safety or security problem yet at the Hamburg tournament for either men or women, it should have stayed as its current status I suppose.
     
    #69
  20. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Federer's best surface is hard courts so he has 6 on his best surface. Indoors is not a surface.

    Federer is definitely not better on grass than hard courts. He just has more competition on hard courts. That he is considered the best hard court player and is not considered the best grass court player ever also indicates this.
     
    #70
  21. kragster

    kragster Hall of Fame

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    Yeah I was talking only about Masters, sorry. I think having more grass and reducing HC would give Fed a little bit more advantage in the post Djokovic/Murray era as those guys would win less on grass. It would funnily also be beneficial to Nadal who has lost many HC finals to those two but as of now is clearly (past results wise) a better grass court player than those two.

    Fed is such a great player that no matter what surface distribution, he would do really well since even on his worst surface clay, he pretty much lost to only 1 guy from 2005-2010. Having a majority hardcourt year most favors Djokovic/Murray these days. Of course to be fair, the reality is that during their formative years, players adapt to whatever surface distribution there is. So perhaps Djokovic would be a better grasscourter if he had grown up in the 80s.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
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  22. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I think Federer's best surface is grass, that case could be made rather easily, it's just that there's only one really important tournament on grass each year. The thing about this is that Fed's best surface could be argued to be either HC or grass because he's great on both of them so the point that there are no 1000's on grass is a moot one at best because he's so good on HC as well.
     
    #72
  23. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Relative to the field, Federer's best surface is grass. So he'd love it if there were 2 less HC Masters and 2 more GC Masters. Like you said, he'd be winning more Masters that way, even if it's due to a weaker field.

    Having said that, Nadal would benefit almost as much, if not more, from this change, seeing that the difference between Federer on Grass and Federer on Hards is lesser than the difference between Nadal on Grass and Nadal on Hards.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
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  24. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Hamburg is a 500, not a 250.

    I can't imagine there was any connection. The Seles stabbing occurred in 1993, Hamburg's demotion from Masters to 500 didn't occur until 2009.
    It seems Hamburg was sacrificed to make way for the new clay Madrid Masters while Shanghai was created a Masters to compensate for the loss of the WTF to London and took Madrid's old spot. It's always been a surprise to me how apparently lacking in influence with the ATP the German tennis authorities were considering the past strength of German tennis. They did sue the ATP but to no avail.

    There have been major security failures at other big tournaments too. I recall a guy running onto the court at Roland Garros when Federer was playing just a few years ago. He managed to approach Federer and tried to put a hat on his head. It took some minutes before security arrived and chased him away. As it turned out, he was harmless but it could just as easily have been as serious and nasty as with Seles in Hamburg.
     
    #74
  25. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Yeah, the players are a product of the tour. Not sensible to say, "this benefits him and that is unfair to him."
     
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  26. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Indoor surface

    Why do people comment on how people play on different surfaces? It is because the differing conditions influence play considerably. Indoor may not be a surface but it completely influences play. So in that regard it is highly significant. Compare Nadal/Federer over outdoor hard vs indoor hard to see what I mean.

    Indoors is Nadal worst 'surface' (conditions) it possibly is Federer's best.

    Surface/Conditions is one of the primary determining factors in head to head. (Would you say the McEnroe Borg head to head would be exactly the same for the 14 matches they played if they had played them all on clay?)
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
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  27. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    Indoors is definitely a surface
     
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  28. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Yeah I get you. And I agree, MC is still a top event, and though potentially it could have a weaker field, so could outher masters like Canada in olympic years or Paris or Shanghai each year where players pulling out is common due to where they are in the calendar. Most years either Djokovic or Federer have been in MC along with Nadal and they are the only guys with even a shot at beating him, though he is most likely winning it whoever shows up. In a situation where a lot of the top 8 didn't play MC I would look at it in a lesser way, ut that hasn't happened so it's not an issue at present.

    I'm sorry, I totally misunderstood. You mean there are 6 masters on hardcourt which is Fed's 2nd best surface and Nadal's worst. I thought you meant Fed had won 6 masters on his 2nd best surface and Nadal had won 6 on his worst. Federer has won 6 on clay and Nadal has won 5 on HC but I thought it was 6, so I got really confused :lol:

    I think Fed might have gained a few masters if some harcourt ones had been replaced with grass. Nadal might have gained too, although he only won one queens/Halle title and has been down 2 sets to 0 a few times at Wimbeldon, which would be a loss in a best of 3, but I think he would find it less taxing on grass so perhaps that would benefit him later in the season. All in all I would like grass masters.
     
    #78
  29. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Well in that case it is not true there are no Masters on Federer's "favorite" surface if we presume that to be indoors.
     
    #79
  30. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Indoor Masters

    Yes and that is the great shame and pity of modern tennis. Indoor used to be one of the main surfaces throughout the year. Until the 90's it had two whole seasons a year (Autumn - Philly, Milan etc and Autumn - Stockholm, Tokyo etc). Instead tennis has gone the way of progressively slowing things down as much as possible.

    Federer has one chance to shine indoor - the WTF which is rated above the Masters 1000 - and he has taken that chance (6 titles).
     
    #80
  31. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Nadal's worst surface

    Hardcourt isn't Nadal's worst surface. Indoor is. See my comments about Indoor in this thread.
     
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  32. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Federer has 6 Masters on HC and you are still not satisfied?
     
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  33. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Nadal has 6 Masters on HC too. The tour is the same for everybody.
     
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  34. Gonzo_style

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    TMF said Nadal was lucky that 3 Masters is on clay, his best surface!
     
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  35. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    TMF is just being a fanboy. Or maybe it was just his way of saying, "The tour is what it is."
     
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  36. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Yeah whatever...
     
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  37. Prisoner of Birth

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    Whatever what? Should Football be played in water because Michael Phelps isn't good enough to make the team on Grass?
     
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  38. Gonzo_style

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    LOL TMF complaining about 3 masters on clay, he thinks it's too much!
     
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  39. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Grass is part of tennis and there should be MS on this surface.

    Of the 9 MS, I think they should have 2 on hc, 2 on clay, 3 on hc, and 2 on indoor. Hc gets 3 MS because it's mainly played on the tour and the most neutral surface. By spreading out 9 events throughout different conditions, this makes it fair for everyone since certain player have his own favorite surface(eg Nadal-clay, Roddick-grass).

    Whether if hc or grass is his best is not the point. The tour have varieties of surfaces/conditions and it's best to have all MS play on every surfaces. Currently, there's no grass MS and the players who's hurts are the one who enjoy playing on it, and clay specialists benefit for have 3 MS. The hc MS is a neutral surface, because it's play on most of the time and players are use to it. Plus, it's been slow down and adding high bounce which helps pusher/defensive players rather than all court player like Roger.

    As I just mentioned above...grass is part of tennis and it makes no sense to ignore it. Because of tradition, I think grass should have more precedence over clay but strangely enough we have 3 clay but 0 grass.

    Also, just because there's 6 hc MS doesn't mean every player including Roger plays all 6 events. They skip a few of them, or some of them just don't give a 100%(tank job) and lose early.
     
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  40. Prisoner of Birth

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    Nothing is too much, the tour is what it is. It might be a good move to have a couple of Grass masters (not to benefit Federer or anything) just because Grass was the original surface for Tennis. I'm shocked Wimbledon is the only Grasscourt tournament right now. It just seems wrong. But I guess that's why Wimbledon is so special.
     
    #90
  41. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I told you there's 3 clay and 0 grass which shouldn't be this way. Let say grass was Nadal's best and clay is Roger's best, I'm sure you guys would scream for HOW UNFAIR IT IS FOR NADAL!
     
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  42. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Grass is the most expensive and most difficult surface for maintenance, finals and semi-finals of the tournaments will be played on clay anyway :)
     
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  43. Prisoner of Birth

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    That sounds like you wrote two lines, and gobbled up the middle part to make it one.
     
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  44. Netspirit

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    I am shocked by your ignorance.
     
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  45. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    See post #92
     
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  46. Prisoner of Birth

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    What are we talking about here? Grand Slams and Masters 1000. I'm shocked by your irrelevance.
     
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  47. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Because Halle, and Queens are SO important right? Let's not forget Eastbourne and Hertsogenbosch or however the hell you spell it. :roll:
     
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  48. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Then what do you suggest?
     
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  49. Prisoner of Birth

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    Thanks! :)
     
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  50. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I never suggested anything??? PoB said there was only one GC tournament, and while technically incorrect, there is only one of any importance at all. I was simply being sarcastic saying that the other tournaments are of little value. If I was to suggest something I'd say there should be at least 1 1000 level GC tournament. I know the main reason why there isn't one, but that doesn't mean I can't dream right?
     

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