Are Murray and Djockovic on something?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Tropikal_Knights, Jan 25, 2013.

  1. Djokodal Fan

    Djokodal Fan Professional

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    Why would Djoker reveal this when it works to his advantage? Tell me 1 good reason.

    I'm more suspicious of Feds amazing run at grandslams between 2003-2007 and also the way he beat Djoker & Murray back to back at wimbly @ 31. Did you get any suspension off that win?

    I know its not fair to expect a fair answer from you
     
  2. Mick3391

    Mick3391 Professional

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    How dare you accuse without evidence! Are you a ****?????
     
  3. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    Andy's improved results have unfolded so gradually before my untrained eyes over the years, with no superhuman leaps in his level of play punctuating much longer periods of normalcy, that I don't think he's on anything. I cannot say the same for Novak, though, to admit which bothers me because I really like Novak's personality both on and off the court and think he makes a very solid ambassador to our sport.
     
  4. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    IMO, djoker and rafa are foregone conclusions.

    Im just calling clarky out for her seeming indifference to Murray
     
  5. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    I agree that performance wise, Murray wouldnt seem a likely suspect.

    but his physical changes over the years are quite atypical for male tennis players.
     
  6. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    What about David Ferrer, would you not add him to the lineup as well? As nice a guy as he seems deserving of every success, I still feel as though he too is on something not recommended by your physician.
     
  7. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    For me, Ferrer is foregone too.
     
  8. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Because what he's doing is illegal. It's also cheating, so there's another reason.

    Fed never had a massive increase in stamina the way Lance did. He also has a horrible record over 5 sets as well. He also shows he gets tired, which is something Lance stopped doing in January of 2011.
     
  9. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    But I ask you...you have no suspicion of Murray?

    And for the record, you know I agree with you about Djoker.
     
  10. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Actually, it's not. I have never liked him to begin with.

    I don't really find Andy's bulk suspicious. You can be doped to the gills and not be bulky. Most of these guys use stamina increasing drugs such as EPO and autologous blood doping. They also use stuff like HGH for quick recovery. Bulk proves nothing, and is actually detrimental to a tennis player.

    Andy also showed he's human by being tired in the AO final after his 5 setter with Fed. Why didn't Lance show any fatigue whatsoever after his match against Stan?
     
  11. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    if its detrimental to a tennis player why does murray seem so hell bent on bulking up?

    also, you dont find his massive change in physique alarming and atypical?
     
  12. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    Of the things Novak took from Rafa, how to control match rhythms for a particular end was one. They both seem to focus well on optimizing their time spent between points. They play five sets doing so at a mostly-casual pace, while hitting and sustaining break neck speeds in spots just once or twice per set. Rafa made excellent use of this technique and now Novak is an expert too.

    "Oh, but it was a massive towering five setter....greater than the ancient tsunami that rose the planetary tides engulfing the satellite moons...and" yadda yadda bla bla bla; In my opinion, these guys logging four and five hour-long matches are very often playing at a casual pace most of the time. If they were playing attacking tennis, there would be no need for five hour-long matches.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  13. President

    President Legend

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    But Murray's diet and training has been pretty well documented, look it up if you don't believe me. He made a conscious effort in 2008 to get bigger and stronger and was eating 6000+ calories a day at one point in an effort to bulk up. On the other hand Lance attributed his newfound physicality to a quack doctor and a "gluten free diet", much more suspicious IMO. He also says there are "other things" which he does to help, but refuses to share them with the press.
     
  14. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    I think Andy is simply misguided. He seems to really care about his explosiveness which is why he added so much muscle. I think he would be better off losing some of it so he could improve his stamina a bit. Carrying around all of that muscle just uses up more oxygen, making him more prone to getting tired quickly in matches. It also puts more wear and tear on his joints. He would also be a bit quicker with less bulk to haul around as well.
     
  15. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Exactly. Andy's diet and training regimen are not a secret at all. It's nothing like Lance who ended 2010 as the same wheezing weakling he had always been only to show up a month later in 2011 unstoppable; and with a new quack doctor that followed him around everywhere. How weird was that guy? He was even in the pictures Lance took with his 2011 AO trophy. He was creepy and downright bizarre.

    You are also right that Lance hides things, and makes himself look even more suspicious than he already is. I think all this pseudo-science and pure quackery he is into is nothing more than a red herring.
     
  16. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Never in doubt.
     
  17. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    It's hilarious how know nothings on a forum can decide that a doctor is a quack, when the odds are about 100 to 1 that they know nothing about that doctor-and point to the fact that Djoke played a five set match and then, two days later, was able to dispose of Berdych in 4 sets as some sort of "evidence" of something, too funny.

    All the time, they turn a blind eye to a proven cheater, who has a long history of dubious behavior, and who seems to be suffering from the types of injuries that would come with PED abuse, including right now, when, right after he disgraced himself by losing to, and trying to intimidate a ham 'n egger, he suffered an "injury" and hasn't played since.

    Like they say, ya can't make this stuff up...
     
  18. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    There is no question about Nadal, but Djokovic is right there with him as are probably most of the guys in the top ten.
     
  19. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    I don't agree. Nadal's actions-both positive(stamina) and negative(the numerous, and lengthy, mysterious injuries) are not like Nole, or anybody else, for that matter. And, Nole is NOT a proven cheater, unlike Nadal. If you cheat in one area, why not another?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  20. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal may have used questionable tactics in matches such as untimely MTO's, but he was never a constant quitter in matches. Novak was the retirement king for years. He would retire from a match if he had a sliver and he would be exhausted after a short time in a match. All of that has changed since 2011.

    Neil Harman just did a piece on tennis and doping and it was clearly directed at Novak, he may as well have put "Dear Novak" at the beginning of the article. Go read Novak's press conference after the final I believe where the reporters asked him about 10 questions on why he was not tired after his long match vs Wawrinka, and what type of recovery plan was he on? When have reporters asked so many questions like that about recovery? This Armstrong case has people taking notice of athletes in other sports.

    They both dope, no doubt about it imo. I would be shocked to find out they didn't dope.
     
  21. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    I think Novak's past stamina issues are being over-exaggerated in an attempt to prove that he's "on something". I'm going to look into that.

    I mean, he almost won that 4 hour match against Nadal in Madrid back in 2009. Was he on something then?

    And don't forget those back-to-back 4 and 5-hour matches he played at Wimbledon back in 2007. And this was AFTER he played a match that lasted 3 1/2 hours long. Was he on something THEN, too?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  22. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    I think it's an exaggeration to say that Nole was the retirement king(and, btw, let us not forget that Nadal quit against Murray at the AO not that long ago). I was down on him for seemingly being on course to have a Grand Slam of retirements, I believe that he retired in 3 of them, I'm not sure, but I had heard back then that he had breathing problems. He changed his diet, substantially, and his training methods, including the chamber deal. People can whine about that all they want, it's not illegal, and if you change that many things, I don't see it's unusual that you'd have significant changes in your stamina. Contrast this to the following article-anybody who can read this and not be suspicious of Nadal simply doesn't want to see, IMO-and the article was written almost 2 years ago, we haven't TOUCHED on his various ailments since then, including the current fiasco:

    http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/2011/02/curious-case-of-rafael-nadal.html

    Jones and Armstrong weren't caught during their careers, but both had numerous friends and associates around them who were busted, and, in LA's case, many of those associates fingered him. That, along with the mountain of circumstantial evidence against him, led to the dam finally breaking. That's not the case with Nole at all-nothing even remotely as damning against him as there is against Nadal-and, again, Nole is not a proven cheater, which Nadal apologists keep trying to ignore.
     
  23. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    You don't have to convince me about Nadal, I am with you on that one. However, I don't think Nadal is the only one in the top ten juicing, he is merely the most obvious case.
     
  24. T1000

    T1000 Hall of Fame

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    Every pro athlete (including tennis players and Federer/Djokovic) are on PEDs
     
  25. Doubles

    Doubles Hall of Fame

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    Every professional athlete is.
     
  26. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    I looked into it. Let's kill those silly accusations once and for all.
    This is a complete list of Djoko's retirements in his career. Here we go:

    2003: Serbia F5
    2004: none
    2005: RG
    2006: RG, Umag
    2007: W
    2008: DC 1st R, M-C
    2009: AO
    2010: Belgrade
    2011: Cincy, DC Semi
    2012: none


    Myth #1: Djoko used to be a serial retirer: false: he's never retired more than once or twice a year out of a full schedule.
    Myth #2: He used to retire constantly and very suspiciously it all stopped in 2011 when he became a superhuman: false: he retired twice in 2011 like he did in 2006 and 2008.
    Myth #3: He retired because he had no stamina (magic egg fixed that in 2011): false: none of his retirements had anything to do with going the distance or stamina. More than half of his retirements (6 out of 11) happened on clay: F5 2003, RG 2005, Umag 2006, RG 2006, M-C 2008, Belgrade 2010. They were allergy related (clay dust causing breathing difficulties). They stopped after 2010 when he discovered that those difficulties were exacerbated by gluten. 1 was caused by extreme heat. (AO). 2 were caused by back problems: W 2007, DC sf 2011. Cincy 2011: shoulder issue, was probably due to overplay after his very long winning stretch. As early as USO 2005 and W 2006, Djoko played 5 setters and played them out without giving up. Djoko has NEVER retired because of tiredness due to length of match.
    Myth # 4: Djoko has retired in all grand slams: false: he has never retired at USO.

    I'm gonna save this post and that should do it every time somebody tries to bring up that BS nonsense about Djoko the weakling miraculously transformed into indestructible Hercules in 2011. Enough is enough.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  27. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    This is what I find most interesting. Because as I was looking back, I found that he played NUMEROUS matches that neared the 4-hour mark and 1) managed to win it and 2) sometimes went on to play AND win his next match.

    This refutes the suggestion that Novak had very little stamina early in his career. It also demonstrates that his retirements for the most part were allergy-related (the clay dust, like you said) and because of heat exhaustion.
     
  28. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Absolutely and the heat problem happened only once, so not such a big deal.
     
  29. sunny_cali

    sunny_cali Semi-Pro

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    I agree that oft-quoted physical transformation of Nole is a canard.

    However, it might be interesting to compare how Nole performed in 5-set matches that went the distance prior to 2011 and after it.
     
  30. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    But how does that compare to the norm? Murray for example, has retired once in the same period and he was out for 4 months after it. How do the rest of his peer group fare? If Nole retired 3 times more often than the average then the myth isn't a myth. Just telling us how many time's he has retired doesn't by itself prove or disprove anything.

    For clarity - I don't believe for a minute Nole is doping - I just don't think your myth busting quite flies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  31. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Great post Vero, I'll bookmark it.

    Just to add to your point, another myth is claiming that Novak was a weakling who couldn't compete in 5 setters before 2011 while the fact is prior to 2011 his 5 set record was 12-5.

    Also, in his "superhuman" 2011 he only played 70+ matches (with only one 5 setter) and was spent by the end of the season while in 2009 he played nearly 100 matches.
     
  32. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well maybe that particular point doesn't stand but the rest are rock solid for the most part.
     
  33. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    No problem. 5 setters Djoko has played in his career:

    2005: played 4: 2 W/ 2 L
    2006: played 3: 2 W/ 1 L
    2007: played 3: 3 W/ 0 L
    2008: played 1: 1 W/ 0 L
    2009: none played
    2010: played 6: 4 W/ 2 L
    2011: played 1: 1 W/ 0 L
    2012: played 5: 4 W/ 1 L

    Fact #1: Djokovic has played 5 set matches on the tour since the age of 18.
    Fact #2: He has always won more than he has lost except his first year (2005) when it's a tie. (The 1st 2 players he beat in a 5 setter were Garcia-Lopez and Monfils)
    Conclusion: Djoko has always been a good 5 set player, before and after 2011.
    Zagor: thanks! Maybe you can bookmark this one too!
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  34. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    I think Djokovic's fitness did improve by a decent margin in 2011. He was completely burned out at the end of 2010 US Open final. He was just swinging for winners and breathing as heavy as he could. In contrast, The 2011 final was way more physical and Novak was once again coming in after a 5 setter with Federer, but he handled it like a real pro. Of course, that could also have been influenced by the supreme confidence Djokovic had in his game in 2011 which he lacked the year before.
     
  35. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    He is probably the best on tour now. He has won 9 out of his last 10.
     
  36. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Only point I had an issue with Zag - hence only highlighting that. I think it is to Nole's eternal credit that his retirement rate has slowed somewhat - it came at the same time as he took his game to a new level.
     
  37. sunny_cali

    sunny_cali Semi-Pro

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    Ok thanks. It looks like there isn't much to suggest that Djoker flew to Krypton and back in 2011.

    The only thing different is that while earlier he used to lose close matches to Fed/Rafa, now he beats them in close matches. If anything this might point to an increase in mental toughness and a possible decline with Rafa/Fed.

    Note that all this only provides some data to suggest that Nole didn't do anything special (read doping) in 2011.

    Personally, going by the voluminous evidence presented in other sports, I do think that most athletes dope sadly (yes, even Federer).
     
  38. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Bookmark it.

    However, bookmarking will not change the following:

    Myth1: is actually true. Compare the numer of his retirements to the record of the others of the top 4.

    Myth2: Constructing a myth doesn't exactly make anyone credible. The superhuman myth was created after his unbelievable first half of 2011, where he was devastating everything at sight, including Nadal on clay. It was actually the WAY he did it, that made some people lump him together with Nadal in the doper's department. The similarity between their wins at AO(2009and2012) didn't help either.

    Myth3:Was created after his complete dominance over Nadal, who is a beast in that department. And I do not mean one match (they had competitive matches before) Of course, the two wins on clay stand out. In those matches Djokovic outgrinded and outrun Nadal.

    Myth4:is utter joke. Who cares whether he retired in all 4 Majors?

    I couldn't care less about Djokovic (as I don't like grinding), but to pretend, that such a change in the performance is normal, is unacceptable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  39. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, because the numer of 5 setters and not the way he wins his matches is exemplary for the changes in the results. What a red herring.
     
  40. sunny_cali

    sunny_cali Semi-Pro

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    The difference between Djoker, Fed and Rafa is/was marginal -- especially on slow surfaces. Fed and Djoker have always had close contests, even if the matches ended in straights. I do not see anything unusual in a prime Djoker getting the better of a declining Fed in 2011.

    Djoker very nearly won Madrid in 2009 out-grinding Nadal. He's now winning as opposed to nearly winning. And its quite likely that Nadal isn't at his peak now.

    Mind you - I am not suggesting that Djoker isn't on PED's, merely that he didn't start taking them in 2011, if he's taking them at all. So, 2011 is not some special year wrt PED's.
     
  41. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Doesn't change the fact that his retirement numbers are VERY SMALL to qualify as a serial retiree, people simply undervalued Djoko's fitness because of some of his ailments(especially his alergies during spring) and certain episodes(like when he left court to puke against JO in AO because he had gastroenteritis).

    1-2 retirements per year(sometimes none) when you play 70+ matches in today's physical tennis doesn't exactly sound outlandish.
    And how exactly do you explain a year like 2009, where Djokovic played 90+ matches and retired ONCE, in very difficult conditions(37 degrees celsius in air and the court was easily at least 10 degrees hotter as usual), where he probably had a heat stroke(don't tell me very fit people don't get heat strokes)
    [​IMG]



    The "way he did it"? Hmmm...

    Have you seen Djokovic in 2009 against Nadal on clay? He could have won at least the Madrid match and had mostly long rallies against Nadal that day, in that 4 hour match. Physically, Djoko held up just fine, it was the mental part that let him down. He also pushed Nadal quite hard in Rome and took a set off him on the Monte Carlo clay, where Nadal is almost invincible. And remember, this is 2009 Djokovic, who didn't exactly have a terrific year.
    Djokovic also won sets on clay against PEAK Nadal in 2008, like in Hamburg. And he easily gave peak Nadal his most spirited challenge in the RG 2008 draw. It wasn't the physical ability that let him down against Nadal in the past, but the mental one.


    Did you even read what veroniquem wrote? Djokovic never had problems due to tiredness/fatigue in the past, all of his woes were because of allergies, some case of disease, like gastroenteritis in AO or actual PHYSICAL problems: like shoulder or back injuries, which he experienced even in his "superhuman" form in 2011.

    A serial retiree that can't cut it due to fatigue issus(as is your theory) would surely get at least a retirement(if not more) in every tournie that goes 3 out of 5 and which are many times played in heated conditions(at least in AO if not RG).

    Take a look at this list(last updated in 2012):
    http://www.tennisabstract.com/reports/retirementReport.html

    Djokovic is hardly the king of retirements here, statistically, he has about one retirement per 100 matches played.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  42. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    How about straightsetting prime Nadal on clay? Twice?

    Wasn't Madrid at some altitude? Cough, cough.

    And, if your theory is true, what happened in 2012? Did Nadal suddenly enter his peak again?

    If he did, it started before 2011.
     
  43. sunny_cali

    sunny_cali Semi-Pro

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    What about it ? Is there some decree from God that Rafa cannot be straight-setted on clay ? Djoker happened to red-line building on his form and confidence from the preceding months and had a couple of good matches. Old man Fed had a better day and took him out in the FO SF. He also had a good day a couple of years back and took out Nadal in straights.

    I have no "theory". My basic statement is that there isn't much to chose between these three players. On a given day, any one of them could win -- yes even on clay. Rafa's peak on clay was in 2008, he's come down to earth or to beatable levels since. He's still the clear favorite, but if Djokovic hangs in there he definitely has a chance.

    Maybe. Do you think it's just Djoker/Rafa or most of the rest as well ?
     
  44. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    So, 2011 was in no way extraordinary? Djokovic got over his gluten allergy and decided to go on a tear? If that is the case, I think that it is futile to continue that discussion. We will see how the things will turn out to be.


    I said, that there are signs, that they are most likely to dope. I have no evidence to say, that they do/did.

    And, yes, in my opinion it is most likely, that all the top pros dope in one way or another. The question is, to what extend that helps them with their game.
     
  45. sunny_cali

    sunny_cali Semi-Pro

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    It was extraordinary, yes. But Fed showed that he could be beaten, and beaten on his worst surface. In terms of sheer level of play it was up there with Fed's best season's -- perhaps better, because he beat Nadal on clay.

    We seem to disagree on one point. You seem to hold the view that this dominance was purely drug-fueled. I think that it was more to do with better mental/physical conditioning, coupled with a marginal decline of both Fed/Rafa. Take the surface homogenity into consideration, and the sad fact that the difference between the top-4 and the rest of the field is rather large, such dominance from an exceptional player like Djokovic is probably waiting to happen.

    Did he stop taking drugs in 2012 ? After all, he went 9 months without a Slam ? Or did the other's dope more ?

    And with both Fed/Rafa nearly out of the way now, I think Murray is not far away from going on a tear as well, with The Lendl Way finally producing results.

    We seem to broadly agree here. If Fed manages to eke out a couple of Slams more, expect the haters to cry PED's in that case as well.
     
  46. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    I think, that the WAY he imposed himself on the field was extraordinary. It is not the # of wins. Watching Nadal outgrinded and outrun to an extend of looking helpless, was quite an experience.

    I find it interesting, that, shortly after he parted ways with Dr.Igor, his dominance evaporated.

    Nothing, except his ability to stay injury-free, says, that Federer dopes. His career curve is pretty standart for a tennis player. Without unusual ups and downs.
     
  47. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    I just called them both and asked them what they are on:

    Djoko said he's on Jelena.

    Murray said he's on his xbox playing games.

    :oops: :redface:
     
  48. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    heh :)

    10 chars ...
     
  49. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    well Federer beat Nadal on clay in 2007 (Bageling him no less), a year where he won three majors and also made it to the final at the French. Also, Federer won 3 majors 3 years. Impressive by any standards and more impressive than Djoker's 2011 IMO.
     
  50. sunny_cali

    sunny_cali Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    689
    Yes the overall season for Fed was probably better, but the 1st half from Nole was flawless. More than the numbers the level of play and dominance was unbelievable.
     

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