Are strategies relevant today in Modern Tennis?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by sureshs, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    Actually it is, it's a bad strategy, but a strategy nonetheless. I play around beginners all the time and it's sort of where everyone starts...Please don't pretend like you think any top 10, or even top 100, player actually does that. I know you think you have a better strategy than simply hitting where you opponent isn't, do you truly believe you are a better tactician than any one of the top 100 tennis players in the world?
     
  2. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    there´s a difference between figuring out a strategy while you´re sitting on your couch watching tennis on tv or while you´re in the middle of a hard match. not so easy to think clearly then.
    and then there´s a vast difference between figuring out a strategy and doing something against it. if my strategy is to play high to your bh and that works, you might not find a way to do something against it. simple strategy but effective
     
  3. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    let me tell you a story.
    i played a tough opponent on sunday. league match. he´s eight years younger than me. fast first serve, second with some kick. fh a weapon, trying to punish short balls with winners, nice onehanded bh, not so good on the slice.
    warming up i noticed, that he isn´t moving very well foreward and backward.
    my assessment from warm-up was, that he was pretty much my level.
    so i made a few strategic decisions. go for the first serve for some free points. slice out wide to his backhand with my second, so that he had to play his slice bh.
    i also decided to add some topspin to my groundies to make the rallies longer. i noticed early on that he had the tendency to go for it after 5 or 6 strokes, trying to avoid long rallies. so i went for depth to make it difficult for him.
    here´s my point. i didn´t think about strategy during the match. just let it flow as you would say:) even a change in strategy wouldn´t have needed a conscious decision. i would have just adapted.that comes from experience and years of putting strategy to work.
     
  4. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    flipping the berger so you can cook the other side, is that a strategy?

    btw we are talking about tennis, not myself.

    yeah it's one thing to figure out 'flipping the berger to cook the other side', it's another thing when you have a customer ordering at the drive thru, and the oven is over heating, and your boss is yelling at you for being too slow.
     
  5. eliza

    eliza Rookie

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    Do you believe beginners have a strategy? They are just trying to remember how to hit, how to bend elbow/wrist, where to out a leg or foot.....that's why they look like .....beginners!

    For the top 100, jee they have a squad of people who think for them, they watch, they train.........
    So the interesting point is: can we bring that squad at "club coaching level"?
     
  6. eliza

    eliza Rookie

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    What score you ended up with? You made me smile, thinking of my first coach who always said: "do not assume anything just from the warm-up", and "in warm-up just reply to the ball, do not put too much spin or slice, do not force serves, do not give yourself up to opponent's analysis.....
     
  7. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    It's not about you, but I am using you as an example. Assuming you agree with the OP, you think that "modern" day tennis is simple, you think that it can be figured out with an IQ of 80. IE. anybody could do it, including yourself. Unless you are below that magic number 80, you are saying that you have just as good tactical skills as a top player.



    Beginners in their first week of tennis? No. Beginners in their first year? Yes.


    The OP is minimizing all the strategy by ignoring how competitive it is. A strategy that lets you win is a good strategy and a strategy that does not let you win is a bad strategy. If a player is winning, they are using a good strategy. If a pro was actually using a strategy as simple as "hit where the opponent is not" their opponent would start running away from their position as soon as they were about to hit the ball. Then that would be the winning strategy, and back and forth and back and forth until someone comes up with something that doesn't get figured out or whatever.
     
  8. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    so you take a top wta player, who had this "strategy" of hitting to LiNa's fh and it didn't work.... now she's stuck with no plan B and a score of 6-2 6-2.... so one side of the berger she can't cook, and she is toast.

    doesn't sound like a lot of strategy there.

    strategy is not a quantum word.. all or nothing

    it has a spectrum... and tennis is on the low end of the spectrum

    that's what i am saying, and that's what the OP was saying.
     
  9. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    In order implement stategy, you first need the variety of strokes and movement to apply your ideas.
    Would Maria moonball and fetch? Would she kick serves high to Li's backhand? Would she drop shot and lob? Can she ace Li repeatedly, or body shot her?
    NO. She plays the way she does because that is her game.
    Another player might be able to apply different strategies, but it still might not work against a red hot opponent.
     
  10. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    thank you for asking:) i won 3 and 4, but since it had nothing to do with the story i opted for modesty:)
    of course it would be wrong to assume too much from the warmup, but i´ve made the experience that if a player doesn´t react well to different lengths it tells of a certain lack of footwork, and that can be exploited.
    of course the advice from your first coach is good.
    the ability to read an opponents game is a bit of an art in itself. i´ve had young opponents for example who didn´t realize that i´m a lefthander until late in the game:)
     
  11. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    you´re right of course. where i live, we´re allowed to coach on league games. it is fundamentally important that as a coach you realize what a player can do and is comfortable with in pressure situations.
     
  12. 2ManyAces

    2ManyAces Rookie

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    there are definitely strategies. Dropshot --> lob combo is technically a strategy.

    going to your opponents backhand because they can't hit a ball for their life on that side is strategy.
     
  13. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    what some people have difficulty understanding is that a strategy need not be complicated or hard to understand to be an effective strategy. the best ones often are simple and easy to execute. like you said, hit to their backhand,...
    it´s tennis after all, not chess:)
     
  14. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Azeranka's strategy of icing Stevens for 10 minutes while she recovered from her panic attack worked perfectly.
    Steven's strategy of sitting down for 10 full minutes and not once looking up at her coach for advice failed big time.
     
  15. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    lol sure, in one match one player did not use the correct strategy, that doesn't mean she did not use any strategy at all, and if she did not and just hit wherever with no intent whatsoever, she would never have won a point.

    And no, what the OP is saying is that there is no strategy in today's tennis. "Strategy seems to be an afterthought. I think most players are too exhausted with the big play to even think of strategy." Ironic with all this talk of how superhumanly fit the players are, yet they are too tired to think while they play...lmao if a player has any intention to hit the ball in any way besides "in", that is strategy. A beginner might hit away from their opponent, a more advanced player may hit to a weak side until they get a short ball and take it for a winner on the other side, with all types in between. It's all strategy.
     
  16. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    luvforty,

    are you being facetious? also, please leave the spoilers out of this part of the forums.

    Strategy:
    A plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

    Do you not have a plan of action when you play someone, or do you just hit from intuition during points?
     
  17. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    post #208..
     
  18. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    Yeah, cool that you think that, but it's not what the OP is saying...

    From the OP, "Strategy seems to be an afterthought. I think most players are too exhausted with the big play to even think of strategy." Like I said before.

    I agree that point to point, there isn't much strategy. Which is maybe what you are saying? Idk/c. But it's not what the OP is saying.
     
  19. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Better read post #209.
    Maria doesn't have a varied game, she just pounds groundies as hard as she can control, and little else.
    Asking her to play subtle spins, drop angles, and a volley game is like asking an elephant to tightrope walk.
    Now Azeranka can hit drop shots, low slices, and play the net.
    MariaSharapova...no.
    And that's why she is flying home without a trophy.
     
  20. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    Yeah, she only has one strategy. It's a simple, yet often effective one. Li Na came in knowing this and implemented a strategy against it. Now, both players in the final will come in with a strategy to beat the other. I can assure you it is not as simple as "hit hard where the opponent is not".
     
  21. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    luvforty,

    you don't recalculate all of the scenarios every move (stroke / point) like you do in chess (would be very high on your spectrum, is there any sport that comes this close?!), but you do reassess what you're doing as the match progresses if your plan or intuition is not working. especially if your service games are under pressure as in the game you refer to. As you're discussing degree, for a sport, tennis has a lot of strategy. Can you think of many other sports that have more strategy?

    Not to generalise based on your example match, but why didn't the player your refer to not hit some kick/slice 1st serves to be less predictable and make her main flat serves more effective as a result? That's a strategic option, just because it wasn't used in a particular match doesn't mean that there is little strategy in tennis. Would the opponent have responded by hitting more winner return of serves? Did the player think this far ahead and come to the conclusion that this strategy is sub-optimal? (we're in game theory territory now). See what I mean? Anyway, that is WTA. the mens game shows strategy in a clearer manner as they play longer matches and have more variety on tour. It's more obvious.

    check out the mixed doubles semifinal being played now, or the final if you read this too late. Lots of strategy on display there. Nearly on a point by point basis as you can see due to the communication between teammates. You can't observe the internal conversation in singles and have to infer it from play.
     
  22. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    almost all other racket sports, squash, badminton, pingpong, have more strategy as they have less potential to power your way thru.

    what other individual sports can you not power your way thru? too many.

    dubs don't count.
     
  23. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    no they don´t. and i´m playing them all:)
    all those sports, tennis included have strategy applied by expert players.
    if you have a closed mind about that aspect, you are actually missing out on a great opportunity to improve your game.
    and of course, doubles count. just harder to argue against strategy when you see players talking about it constantly, isn´t it:)
    oh and just for the record, it´s tabletennis not pingpong
     
  24. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    Of course strategies are relevant, on pretty much every level.
     
  25. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    of course they are.
    that´s the beauty of the tips/instruction forum that people argue against that obvious fact for twelve pages instead of using this thread as a chance to learn something new about their favourite sport:)
     
  26. Hi I'm Ray

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    The best part is saying it doesn't count because its "too simple/obvious"
     
  27. treblings

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    that´s the best:)
     
  28. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    yeah, next time I go to micky D's, I will tell the burger boy that he should be proud of his strategy :)
     
  29. Avles

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    I think most team sports have more strategy-- American football is the most extreme example, but in most sports there's a question of deciding who plays, setting formations, running plays, etc... Individual sports don't have that kind of complexity.

    But of course tennis has strategy, just like boxing has strategy. For example Chardy was running around his backhand over and over again in the portion of the Del Potro match I saw... sure looked like a strategy to me.
     
  30. hyperion99

    hyperion99 Semi-Pro

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    My opinion is that the Tennis is the most strategy implemented sport in the world.
    Always thinking where they are going to hit to finish the point.
    Using shot selection (strategy) to determine what is the best shot in that current situation.
    Finding the opponents weakness and implementing a strategy how to exploit it.

    Tennis is one most mental/physical sports in the world.
     
  31. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Strategy is silly! Just bang cross court loopers until you get an U/E or a short ball and close. Anything beyond that is too much (for me) to think about while I play. :razz:

    -Fuji
     
  32. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    Heh, that's a gross oversimplification. Sounds like you have a lot of experience flippin' burgers, though. ;)
     
  33. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    There's obviously no strategy. For instance, Djokovic just hits the ball as hard as he can without caring about the direction. That's how he took apart his latest opponents.
     
  34. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    If it looks that way to you, I'm sorry for your loss...lol. I guarantee you he has a clear purpose for the depth, direction, and pace of every shot he hits. But once again, tennis does not have much point-to-point strategy. I'm sure you have heard the commentators talk about "game plans". That is more the type of strategy that is used in tennis. You go in knowing your opponent is weaker off the BH side, or doesn't cover their forehand return of serve very well, or isn't good at net, or whatever it is, and you try to exploit that. If they can't handle pace, then you hit hard, but honestly, there aren't many top 30 men who can't handle pace lol.
     
  35. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I was being just a wee bit sarcastic. Sorry about that.:twisted:
     
  36. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsIpQ7YguGE

    4:35 - "I am on your side, but you are not" !!

    by the way, I highly recommend more of Milton's clips and people will notice massive advancement in logical thinking :)
     
  37. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    I've only been on this forum for like two months, but am already used to people saying things that would normally be nonsense, but are serious and have "credibility" here. I just can't tell the difference anymore.
     
  38. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    are you trolling? stop wasting our time please.

    In case you're not:

    Can you give us an example of table tennis or badminton strategy that is more complex than tennis? or explain how strategy is more important in that game?

    Squash has different angles and can be as strategic as tennis at times, especially as there are fewer winners past the intermediate level. Below the intermediate level, whoever has better skills usually wins emphatically in squash. More importantly, how are you able to see strategy in squash, but not tennis?

    You bring up an interesting point with your "power your way through" comment. Tennis players regularly beat opponents with more powerful strokes, or who are more physically fit. It's exactly that tennis is a strategic game that allows them to do this. The corollary in squash is to say that it is a reflex game, which is, obviously, not the whole picture as the 50 year old at our club consistently demonstrates when he trounces me...
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  39. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    no... sureshs was trolling, and you guys totally took the bait.
     
  40. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    No worries, I've done the same thing. I should have used an emoticon.

    I was just thinking of Djokovic's latest display of brilliant strategy and control. I don't know how anyone could watch that match and think that strategy is dead at the highest level of play. Djokovic was moving his opponent side-to-side and working for the kill. His opponent didn't have the kill shots, but then there's always strategy involved in keeping the ball in a position that an opponent with kill shots can't destroy.
     
  41. TCF

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    ==========================
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  42. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    that's quite snobbish of these 'successful coaches'...... it's like gourmet chef laughing at soup kitchen volunteers for making terrible soups.

    hey 75% aint bad.

    it's arguable, that like any other profession, you get 25% good, 50% bad, and 25% ugly..... that goes for tennis coaches also :-|
     
  43. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    I think there's far less point construction than there was in the past. From a purely third person observer, games appear to be slug-fests. Just keep hitting the ball as hard as you can until the other person caves in.

    I think the "older crew", those that are 30 or older have a little more in the way of point construction. But the young guns, the new crew, I think they're just standing at the baseline hitting the ball as hard as they can, because they can.

    I don't see much in the way of calculations, plans and strategies.
     
  44. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    let me help you out.

    sureshs suffers from the misconception that just because he saw all those instruction videos and read all those articles about tennis means, that he understands it all.

    the bubble bursts from time to time, when he comes up with a wild theory like the one about strategy and gets cut down to size.
    when that happens, usually his first reaction is throwing big words around, like supination, deviation, internal rotation and whatnot.

    at this point,many posters give up on trying to communicate with him.
    if some posters still persist to argue with him, he often comes up with a different strategy, namely abandoning the thread and start a new one.

    that´s not trolling, that´s just sad
     
  45. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is my point. Only a few simple strategies like hit where the other guy isn't, don't hit up the middle, try to come to the net to finish the point - things that come naturally with playing matches.

    They routinely hit up the line over the high part of the net, go for broke on several shots, don't follow the directionals, etc. ATP points start from the 4th stroke onwards, if they managed to survive the serve, and the server did not put away a weak return.

    It is basically about power and stamina now, and of course good strokes.
     
  46. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    You forgot his other ploy. He posts something so weird about something totally off topic and you wtf and then leave the thread.

    Suresh is capable of coaching federer I think with all the high speed slow motion zillion frame per second pro videos he studies. Really. Ask him.

    At least he is not as bad as senoc. Remember dozu? Lol.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  47. Avles

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    dozu is among us....
     
  48. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Oh really? Very interesting.
     
  49. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I only have access to the videos that are free on Youtube. I am not a member of any paid site.
     
  50. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Well then I'm really disregarding all you say. Only tennis playa dot dot high speed time warp video is fit to be used for analysis. How do you see the fine details and suponation pronation angles and isr on regular YouTube? Its not possible. Only one person has the years of experience in high time warp analysis. You should know that.
     

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