Are You Sure My Self-Rate Is Safe?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Jun 27, 2010.

  1. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I have a self-rated player on my 3.5 team. She travels a lot and so was unavailable the entire season.

    Until Friday. When she and her (strong) partner steamrolled another team 6-2, 6-1.

    And until today, when she and that same partner double-bageled another 3.5 team.

    Now, I have learned from you good people that double-bagels do not count toward your rating.

    Is the same true for double-bagels by self-rated players?

    I don't plan to do anything differently regarding this self-rated player -- if she gets DQ'd, she gets DQ'd.

    But I'd sleep better knowing how this works!
     
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  2. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    I dont know how you "LEARN" something that nobody knows.

    If you're self rated and you clobber some established players 6-0, 6-0, you can be sure that may warrent you a strike depending on how it averages in with everything else.

    Ive seen players get DQ'ed in as little as 3 matches with the first one being a double bagel.
     
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  3. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Because somebody quoted something official that said my double-bagel results this season won't help my rating. Is that the same thing as not counting as a strike? Or is it something else entirely?
     
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  4. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    They dont tell anyone that sort of information.

    And if someone did then they should be removed because they are not supposed too.....

    It's common sense, if your player double bagels an established player, do you really think that they are just going to ignore that result and not count it against your player???

    What if you double bageled everyone you played at 3.5? You get to stay 3.5??!!!

    That's why it's not likely they would of just thrown those results out. (unless they seriously have a screw loose)
     
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  5. tom10s

    tom10s New User

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    6-0 6-0 wins will not generate a strike but will raise dntrp well into strike range so that the next match played will almost certainly generate a strike. unless her opponents are low dntrp 3.5's she probably has 1 strike and will get 2nd strike as soon as you enter her next match results(assuming not another 0-0). i'll wager she'll get dq'ed within 48hrs of you entering her 4th match results.
     
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  6. SweetH2O

    SweetH2O Rookie

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    I would say that double bagels might not affect an established player's dynamic rating because the computer doesn't know how to quantify how much better one player is from another. But double bagels should count as strikes. But I'm just guessing along with most people on here.
     
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  7. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    My understanding was that the scores were only thrown out if the EXPECTED outcome of the match was a double bagel, such as a 4.5 playing a 3.0. Since the 4.5 could not possibly win by enough of a margin to maintain their rating (they'd have to win by more than a double bagel), the scores are meaningless.

    Otherwise I can't imagine why a 6-0, 6-0 win against C rated players would not be used in the dynamic calculation. It is a perfectly valid score.
     
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  8. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Ah, OK. I found it.

    This was posted by dizzlmcwizzl on another thread:

    So I guess the double bagel won't help her get bumped to 4.0 for year end rating purposes, but she could conceivably get DQ'd/bumped now? Interesting . . . .
     
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  9. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, I think so. In fact, I have two double-bagels in 3.5 doubles this season, and I was under the impression that they won't push me to 4.0. If you remove those results, I think the computer will keep me at 3.5.
     
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  10. HitItHarder

    HitItHarder Semi-Pro

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    In our captain's meeting at the beginning of the year, Southern was sending around one of the national level officers who personally deals with NTRP ratings, hears national rating appeals, etc. The reason he was at our meeting was he was giving a NTRP presentation because of the big bump up. I understand this was done through out our state.

    During that presentation we were specifically told by this USTA guy that 6-0, 6-0 scores were not used to generate dynamic NTRP ratings. He said that a 6-0, 6-0 score doesn't give them anything to measure as far as how good the player giving the bagel really was on that day.

    Not saying that I agree with this, but that is the USTA position and how we were told the NTRP works.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
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  11. Islandtennis

    Islandtennis Rookie

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    Cindy,

    Javier may blast me again, but this comes directly from a member of the National Oversight Group late last year. The double bagels will not affect their dynamic rating but will affect their year end rating. So, DQ no; bump up, maybe.

    My opinion is that the way 0,0 scores are treated may have been changed slightly over the past few years, but that is opinion only.

    The above is my impression on how they are interpreted this year.
     
    #11
  12. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    I have no other information than what the web site says ... and the formula certainly may have changed.

    As far as the perpetual 3.5 thing concerned, who knows if this could actually happen. However I think the player would go into a second year still as a self rate and subject to penalties such as disqualification. We had at least one example of a poster on here recently that was frustrated because he was a self rate, played other self rates or bageled opponents and started the next season as a self rate.
     
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  13. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    However, I just googled the info from the previous thread and while it shows up on google as having once existed, when you click on the link ... the page is no longer found. hmmmmmmmmm
     
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  14. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I don't understand the mentality of wanting to play opponents below your level. What satisfaction is there in beating players you know you can beat? The fun is beating players you didn't know you can beat!
     
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  15. kendall22

    kendall22 Rookie

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    This isn't just an individual game. You are a helping a team which may consist of many friends make playoffs also.
     
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  16. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I think she self-rated properly. I gave her a very strong partner (according to the computer) who plays a lot of 4.0. We'll see how it goes in the playoffs . . . .
     
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  17. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I should have expressly stated my premise which is that, from my observation, there is an epidemic of self under-rating, at least around here. When you've got former highly ranked juniors and Div. 4A college players playing 4.5, something ain't right.
     
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  18. Kostas

    Kostas Semi-Pro

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    I highly doubt that...the mere fact that you're worried about her getting DQ'd says to me that you feel she did NOT fact properly, as very, very few self-rates do.

    In my spare time I'm slowly putting together the spring/adult league win %'s of the self-rated players versus the computer rated players in this area and I'm going to forward it to our state and section to highlight the gross ineffectiveness of the self-rate program.

    In fact, I don't think I've hardly ever met anyone that self-rated ABOVE 2.5 that wasn't underrated by at least half a level.
     
    #18
  19. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    If she didn't self-rate properly, she will be DQ'd. Neither she nor I are going to do anything to try to manipulate anything. We'll let the chips fall where they may.

    Me, I think she's a strong 3.5.
     
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  20. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    How do "self-rates" rate themselves improperly? Why?
     
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  21. Spokewench

    Spokewench Semi-Pro

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    Cindy, there is just no telling if your player will get 3 strikes. The algorithym that they use is way to too complicated to decide just from scores what will happen with that player; it is all based on what the score was, what the opponents' dynamic ratings are, etc., etc. Just too hard to calculate without all the information that is in the computer and the dynamic ratings of the opponents.

    Don't worry, just go play! Whenever you have a self rated player they can get DQed. That's the way of the USTA and it affects all teams equally.

    spoke
     
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  22. Kostas

    Kostas Semi-Pro

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    Uh...too low and to win matches....
     
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  23. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    She played another match last night, with the same partner. Won -2 and -1. Opponents were a 3.5 and a 3.0. No DQ, so maybe we're ok.
     
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  24. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    Have you ever had a DQ'd player before? Would you even know this quickly if she had been DQ'd?
     
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  25. Kostas

    Kostas Semi-Pro

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    You're likely fine Cindy...

    From what I've seen this year the DNTRP have to be way off the charts to register (i.e. playing up and winning).

    We had a self-rate junior player steamroll our entire league at #1 singles ALL year long to the tune of 12-1 (the one loss coming to my #1 C-rated singles player who didn't lose a match all year 7-5, 7-6) and he didn't get DQ'd...

    With her playing doubles it masks it even more.

    We had two more players also:

    A self-rate 3.0 playing both 3.0 and 3.5 and he won ALL his matches at both levels and didn't get DQ'd...

    And a self-rate 2.5(!!) who was playing up to 3.0 AND 3.5 and didn't lose a match and he's still a 2.5...even my state league coordinator couldn't figure this one out...
     
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  26. decades

    decades Guest

    I try to use some common sense in these matters. if a self rated player double bagels someone of the same rating who isn't self rated, the self rated player needs to move up to their true rating. Of course that would go against the long established tradition of stocking your teams with ringers. but so be it. that's how I see it.
     
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  27. Spokewench

    Spokewench Semi-Pro

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    If she was playing a 3.0 on the other team, you can bet her dynamic rating was not that great; your player will not in any real probability get a strike for that match.
     
    #27

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