Armstrong drops fight against doping charges

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Bartelby, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    That is Armstrong saying that he is fed up with having to prove his innocence, despite the fact that he has never failed a drugs test according to the official laws of cycling. It's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, not the other way round.
     
  2. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    But he didn't even assert his innocence in that statement, and that's the point, as he has done before.

    Why not do it again? Im not suggesting he prove his innocence, but on legal advice he refused to restate his innocence.
     
  3. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Read the statement. Armstrong mentions how he has been subjected to a witch hunt from Travis Tygart and the USADA, and has faced a federal criminal investigation (which collapsed, btw. how strange that this has been forgotten by the press). Armstrong mentions the toll it has taken on him and his family, and that he's now "finished with this nonsense".
     
  4. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, and there's no categorical denial that he took PEDS.
     
  5. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    The problem with what you're claiming, is the fact that other former teammates have come out and testified against Lance. George Hincapie is the most recent big name. But I know what you're going to say...blah blah...plea bargain. He retired. USA Cycling can't exactly suspend him now.

    Or how about Johnathan Vaughters? Never tested positive, and he's also not a current rider. How does it benefit him to come out and say what he has about the Armstrong era? In reality, it's a bit confusing at first given the very strong anti-doping sentiment at his team. But, it's also fairly clear that he does seem determined to promote a clean sport.

    Armstrong is fed up with what exactly??? Fed up with having to vilify and attack anyone that remotely connects him to doping? Simeoni, Lemond, Bassons, Hamilton, Betsy and Franky Andreu...Too many other names to mention! Apparently in one statement he referred to Betsy as a "liar and a prostitute."
     
  6. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Other cyclists, for example, Roger Hammond, have defended Armstrong, saying that Armstrong was a great team-mate and that he had never been offered drugs by Armstrong. Hammond also mentioned that the USADA never asked his opinion in their investigation. I wonder why that is? Might it be because Hammond can't be blackmailed and isn't willing to trash Armstrong for the USADA's poison pen dossier?

    Armstrong is fed up with all the toil and stress it has put on him and his family, not to mention paying all this money to lawyers all the time, despite the fact that he has never failed a test according to the official rules of cycling. The USADA is an organisation backed up by US taxpayers' cash, and Tygart is determined to get Armstrong, come what may.

    Of course, Armstrong's actions in saying that he's "finished with this nonsense" has only angered Tygart all the more, and now he's wants Armstrong in a criminal court for what he says is "perjury". Tygart is like this generation's version of Joseph McCarthy. It's uncanny similarity.

    I also firmly believe that the USADA have offered plea bargains to Armstrong before now, to admit to PED use in order to keep some of his Tour victories.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2012
  7. F. Perry

    F. Perry Banned

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    [​IMG]
     
  8. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, he is not asserting his innocence anymore because he fears further perjuring himself if he has to give evidence under oath.

    That's the legal advice.
     
  9. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    The USADA's dossier is based on circumstantial evidence and the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists or those with an axe to grind against Armstrong. The dossier contains zero objective, physical evidence. What's scary is how many people have just bought it all at face value, and don't even question how someone who survived metastasised cancer, not only came back to professional cycling and won 7 Tour de Frances titles, but also did it whilst being doped up to the eyeballs (and never getting banned for a positive test), whilst also pushing drugs onto other cyclists.

    If Armstrong did all that the USADA allege, then his powers would be at ridiculous levels. Not even Napoleon Bonaparte's escape from exile on Elba to reconquer power in France is on that level.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2012
  10. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Armstrong has already stated for the record that he gained "no unfair advantage." There's not an idiot on the planet who doesn't understand what that means. I'll explain it to you since you are so dense:

    Lance doped, but so did everyone else, so he doesn't think it's wrong.

    Now, as you were:

    [​IMG]

     
  11. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Armstrong has an axe to grind in his favour, as do his fans, but there is an unchallenged dossier that stands as fact.

    Armstrong recovered from cancer and then set about using drugs to gain an unfair advange. Nothing mysterious there with an admittedly Hollywood-style back story.



     
  12. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Fact? There's no objective, physical evidence and you call it fact? No, it's not fact.

    No, that doesn't cover the sheer scale of what the USADA is alleging that Armstrong did. As I said, they are asking people to believe that only did Armstrong beat metastasised cancer, come back to cycling and win 7 Tour de France titles, but that he did it while being doped up to the eyeballs (while beating all the testers), and was also the ring leader in pushing drugs onto other cyclists (again undetected).

    The USADA's scenario of what happened has left reality way behind and entered the realm of fiction.
     
  13. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    There are both physical and non-physical facts and the latter are more probative and more damning.

    If he was as well as the next person after his cancer treatment why can't he cheat as well as the next person?

    Armstrong's drug use was detected and he would have been wiped out earlier but for corruption.
     
  14. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    What additional evidence would you need to see to be convinced that Lance doped. Would you need to see a picture of him in the act of administering banned substances, while he held up a copy of the days newspaper. There's mountains of evidence chronicling his history of doping. His team had a history of institutionalized doping, that he played a major role in.
     
  15. firefox

    firefox Semi-Pro

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    Contador is playing possum now! :twisted:
     
  16. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    When he was getting cancer treatment, he was asked by the doctors about his medical history. He admitted to them about the blood doping. Some of his closest friends and confidants who were there, have testified about what they witnessed Lance saying. So you're right he did survive cancer. And he is also guilty of using illegal performance enhancers. Maybe this guy is one of your heros. He might be one of the biggest sports figures of the past decade. It doesn't change the fact that he cheated.
     
  17. GregN

    GregN New User

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  18. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    More testimony about the horrifying audacity of LieStrong:

    In short order, however, it became clear to O'Reilly that her tasks with the team would hardly be limited to kneading leg muscles and doing laundry. This week O'Reilly said she became a regular player in the team's doping programme, one that investigators have said took on its most sinister and far-reaching dimensions with the arrival of Lance Armstrong in 1998. O'Reilly, then not yet 30, said she wound up transporting doping material across borders, disposing of drugs and syringes when the authorities were lurking, and distributing performance-enhancing substances to the team's riders whenever they needed them.

    Discretion and loyalty, she said she came to understand, were not just valued qualities; they were paramount. "It was prevalent, but discreet," O'Reilly said of the team's doping. "The drugs were just part and parcel of things. You didn't analyse it at the time. It was just part of things."

    And so, she said, she once travelled from France to Spain and back to pick up illegal pills for Armstrong and delivered them to him in a McDonald's parking lot outside Nice. Another time, she took a package of testosterone and got it in the hands of another rider. O'Reilly said she provided ice to the riders who had containers full of doping materials they needed to keep from spoiling. She spoke of using her talents with makeup to disguise bruising from needles on the arms of the riders.

    Some of it made her ashamed, she said, and all of it made her anxious. But the truly hard part was to come: talking about it publicly. "The traumatising part," she said from Manchester, "was dealing with telling the truth."

    O'Reilly first went public in 2003, when she co-operated on a book, LA Confidentiel: Les Secrets de Lance Armstrong, that sought to expose Armstrong as a drug cheat. Armstrong sued her for libel.

    O'Reilly said Armstrong demonised her as a prostitute with a drinking problem, and had her hauled into court. Ultimately, a legal settlement was reached, and O'Reilly tried to pick up the pieces of her life, sometimes talking about Armstrong and drugs, but to little notice.
     
  19. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    It makes Armstrong sound like something out of The Godfather. All the evidence is circumstantial and based on the testimonies of cyclists who have been offered plea bargains or have with an axe to grind. Why do you take such evidence as fact when blackmail is involved? The federal investigation into all this was dropped.
     
  20. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Der Krieg ist verloren.
     
  21. chrischris

    chrischris Hall of Fame

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    The practices and 'politics' /policies in some sports are abyssmal. But so are most things in things too big.
     
  22. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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  23. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    "EPO all in my veins - lately things don't seem the same - acting funny, but don't know why - scuse me while I pass this guy."
     
  24. chrischris

    chrischris Hall of Fame

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    That chorus lix a.s.s....
     
  25. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    The problem with a lie detector test is this...Given the way Lance has been incredibly confident lying to millions for years, and regarding comments from riders like Tyler, Lance doesn't believe he did anything wrong. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he passed a lie detector test.

    Also, the whole interview regarding any such test seems fishy. Regarding Herman's behavior anyway. One poster over on another forum made quite the funny joke at this bit, "but I need to run now." Lance allegedly texted Levi Leipheimer's wife "run, don't walk" after Levi had spoken to investigators. Poster said Herman realized it was time that HE start running.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-may-take-a-lie-detector-test-says-lawye
     
  26. Dags

    Dags Professional

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    I don't know if this plays outside the UK, but here's the actual interview:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19941445

    He's caught on the hop, and clearly wasn't prepared for the question. The written articles make it sound like Armstrong's team are confident that a lie detector would clear him; the spoken interview doesn't give that impression at all.
     
  27. adventure

    adventure Banned

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  28. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    His lawyer got trapped into talking about a lie detector test for the witnesses and then it was turned around into why not just get Lance to take one. He was more than a little annoyed.
     
  29. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    You come to that conclusion because Armstrong said he never gained an unfair advantage? That's some leap you've made, based on nothing more than gut instinct.
     
  30. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Evidence of Armstrong's race fixing?:


    The ABC's Four Corners program has uncovered evidence given in a United States court case suggesting that Anderson was present when Armstrong offered a member of an opposing team a $50,000 bribe to help fix a series of three races which carried a $1 million bonus for any rider who won them all.

    Armstrong won all three races and the bribe - it is alleged - was paid to the opposing team in cash.

    Armstrong has denied the allegation, and Anderson has told Four Corners he does not recall the offer being made.
     
  31. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    if you have to put money where you mouth is, how would you bet?
     
  32. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Goofy passive aggressive responses. HE'S A CHEAT. IT'S OVER.
     
  33. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Oh God. The sport of cycling has been flushed down the toilet.

     
  34. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Be happy to respond to you in the future once you pull your head out of your a--. :)
     
  35. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    This seems accurate and advisable reading for those who argue people doping should have had more positive drug tests at the time:



    Firstly, and most obviously, there was no test for EPO until 2000 at the earliest, and the test could only detect very recent (less than 8 hours) doping.

    Secondly, after EPO could be detected, the dopers moved to "blood doping", which is being transfused with your own blood during competition to increase red blood cells (and so improve oxygen transfer to cells).

    Thirdly, they also used testosterone, which was difficult to detect because it occurs naturally in the body. A positive result to growth hormones was even blamed on a steak by another elite cyclist!

    Fourthly, Armstrong tested positive to cortisone at least once, but a back-dated prescription for a skin cream was used to contest the lab result.

    Fifthly, dopers also used to avoid the testers, even lying low in their own houses until the testers stopped knocking on the front door!
     
  36. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    So what will the UCI do? Defend the indefensible, as they did in the past, or try to save their own skin?
     
  37. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    If the UCI back Armstrong like Nike have, the USADA will have egg on their faces. The whole point of the media hysteria in treating Armstrong like a guilty man, is to try to pressurise the UCI into agreeing with the USADA's verdict. I just hope that the UCI keep their heads and look at the evidence available, which is all circumstantial and based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists and people with axes to grind.
     
  38. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The UCI accepted money from Armstrong after he had tested positive. They are the problem.
     
  39. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    So the USADA are saying that Lance Armstrong is like someone out of The Godfather? In other words, being all powerful while paying the authorities millions to look the other way?
     
  40. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Armstrong tested positive and it was covered up.
     
  41. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    If Armstrong really was this all powerful, why was the federal investigation dropped? Did Armstrong buy off the US police and judiciary as well?
     
  42. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Armstrong is american and the us justice system is highly politicised and lacking in independence.
     
  43. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The fact that Armstrong paid money to the UCI is not in dispute.
     
  44. golfer

    golfer New User

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    I went through the same cancer as lance but 4 times worse. I had the same nurses and doctors. I know their feelings about lance. I know very well if he could have ever won 1 or 7 years on that bike after treatments. If you ever seen the new iupui hospital upgrades you understand why I will thank lance. I hate the ill gotten way it happened but I didn't poster myself for cancer research bringing in millions. Do I give him a free pass today, nope! during his streak everyone did because his name =charity. He showed surviving cancer wasn't a foot in the grave. If lance wasn't on that bike kicking ass I would have given up believing I could have a normal life after my treatments. I'm just showing why many people looked pass what he did.

    As for myself if you know testicular cancer and the beta hcg test here was my marker 385,000.
     
  45. Dedans Penthouse

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    "I need a love to keep me HAPPY" (K. Richards to Bartelby)

    Posting idiotic generalizations (even from a mean-spirited, agenda-driven misanthrope such as yourself) doesn't excuse you from observing the proper useage of upper case lettering when referring to specific nationalities, languages, ethnic groups and religions.

    american..us...Armstrong....yes, I saw what you (purposely) did there...such petulance ...tsk, tsk... :cool:
     
  46. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    No matter how all this turns out for Lance, nobody can deny that the man has done a lot of good for a lot of people.

    Congrats golfer on being a fighter......and a survivor.
     
  47. maleyoyo

    maleyoyo Rookie

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    “When Lance Armstrong celebrated his record-breaking seventh Tour de France title in 2005, he made the following prescient speech: "I'll say to the people who don't believe, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles."

    “Others may struggle with the contradictions of a man ostensibly promoting health while compelling team-mates to take illegal and untested drugs, of a fund-raiser who ran a team that fraudulently received "tens of millions of American taxpayer dollars in funding", of an inspirational figure who cheated to achieve the very triumphs he is venerated for. “

    “For some, none of that matters. Armstrong, through his foundation, has raised an estimated $500m to fight cancer. That is enough, for those unsurprised or unmoved by sporting fraud, to forever hold him in unquestionable esteem. “

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19907683
     
  48. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    I'm merely following most commentary in suggesting that there is no desire to prosecute armstrong in the us justice system and if you promise to publish my posts in a book I'll observe proper usage.



     
  49. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    in the grand scheme of things, how does this compare with tiger, kobe, mcguire, bonds scandals?
     
  50. sapient007

    sapient007 Semi-Pro

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    oh michael jackson. how you make beautiful music and give to charity while fondling little kids.
     

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