Armstrong drops fight against doping charges

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Bartelby, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The UCI is awaiting USADA's determination but in any event its more probable that the races he won will be declared without a winner.
     
    #51
  2. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    So, you are assuming facts not in evidence. Seems to be a lot of that going around.

    If someone finds a good synopsis that gives both sides of the story, please post a link. Seems most of the print on this matter has been along the lines of Let's Kill Lance Armstrong !!!

    I allege that you were the second gunman in Dallas on 11/22/63. I have 10 people that will testify but I won't name them and you can't see their testimony. Prove me wrong.

    For all I know, he is guilty as sin, but I would like him to get a fair hearing as opposed to a Kangaroo Court which is what it sounds like this thing is. No wonder he opted out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
    #52
  3. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    I would also like to see both sides. The USADA can put this all to rest by simply producing a positive test result, and having it verified at an independent lab. If they were to do this, almost everyone would go along with Armstrong as a doper.

    The fact that they have to resort to anything else seems strange to me.
     
    #53
  4. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    If you're accused of doping then you need to mount a defence.

    Armstrong has admitted to being a doper by not contesting the charge.

    You can't opt out, unfortunately, as they punish you in your absence.
     
    #54
  5. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Herp derp.
     
    #55
  6. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    All evidence, physical and verbal, would have been put to Armstrong in a public forum for his rebuttal.

    He chose not to defend himself and therefore he's guilty.
     
    #56
  7. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    One also has to wonder if the USADA threatened the supposed witnesses with persecution if they did not testify against LA. This whole thing doesn't smell right to me. Seems like the head of the USADA has a hidden agenda.
     
    #57
  8. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    You'll have to stop farting in public.



     
    #58
  9. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    If it is so compelling and bullet proof, why not release it to public scrutiny and remove all doubt?

    I'm objective on this. You seem to have made up your mind without seeing any evidence that would warrant doing so.

    I take it you are not a LA fan. He is an American, after all. :)
     
    #59
  10. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    This seems pretty normal for the US justice system if you discard your tendential interpretation.

    The reality is that some who were to testify have already been given bans which they were allowed to start serving after this year's Tour de France.




     
    #60
  11. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Public forum? What public forum?

    The USADA is not "the US justice system."
     
    #61
  12. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Yep, this is extremely black and white. None of this extra crap is necessary. Show your proof or drop it.

    You'll have to start farting in your posts.
     
    #62
  13. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    To walk away from defending yourself is an admission of guilt, so Armstrong made my mind up for me.



     
    #63
  14. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Its jurisdiction is recognised by the us justice system and there were to be hearings that Armstrong chickened out on.



     
    #64
  15. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    I'm sorry, but walking away from a group that is harassing you is not an admission of guilt.

    He may or may not be guilty, but the fact remains that there doesn't need to be a long trial to prove he is a doper. Show everyone the postive tests, if there are any.
     
    #65
  16. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Its "jurisdiction" only applies to cycling events. That's it.

    It's simply not "the US justice system." Lance has far fewer rights with the USADA than he would have with the actual justice system.
     
    #66
  17. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    How long, specifically, does he have to fight them?

    Are you saying that if you ever stop fighting, no matter how long you've already been fighting, it proves you are guilty?
     
    #67
  18. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, that's what a lot of criminals scream when they're led from the dock.



     
    #68
  19. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    What do they scream? Prove it?

    Way to not contribute anything reasonable to the thread. If you can present evidence or reasoning that would help everyone understand what is going on, please share. Don't just commit fallacies and act like it means something.
     
    #69
  20. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    He had hardly even begun to fight it.

    All the years he denied doping he never really faced legal challenge, but as soon as it happened he gave up.

    He's cutting his losses by avoiding public humiliation.



     
    #70
  21. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    He could be doing just that, but that doesn't mean he is. Please try and back up your assertions.
     
    #71
  22. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Produce a failed blood test. That would shut everyone up.
     
    #72
  23. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    First assertion: if you are charged with something you defend yourself

    Second assertion: no defense leaves you open to whatever findings and punishment the body sees fit to levy.


    Armstrong did not defend himself and therefore adverse findings will be made and a punishment determined.
     
    #73
  24. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty in America? So suddenly we're like some Eastern third-world dictatorship where it's guilty and off with his head.
     
    #74
  25. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Such evidence probably will turn up in the public determination by USADA, but all this was to be litigated so there is as yet no written determination.



     
    #75
  26. firefox

    firefox Semi-Pro

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    Getting a moving violation ticket from a rental patrol, no big deal. :)
     
    #76
  27. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    He's offered no defense to the charges and he's not yet proven guilty until the written determination is made.

    It is not in any event a criminal court.

    I think if you look more closely at the us legal system at the moment you'd be surprised.



     
    #77
  28. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    What Bartelby's message lacks in logic or sense will be made up in sheer volume.
     
    #78
  29. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    You flatter me.



     
    #79
  30. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The third statement wasn't an assertion; it was an opinion.



     
    #80
  31. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Of course, I shouldn't have been so naive to think that you have posted anything other than your own personal opinions. The problem is that you think they are meaningful, which they aren't.

    Everyone is trying to discuss what is happening with Armstrong, the USADA, and the case in general, and you just keep piping in and inserting opinions about how Armstrong is an obvious cheat and the like.

    We all know what you think, so if you would like to actually participate in the discussion, then please do so.
     
    #81
  32. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Ah this is so silly.


    The reason why Lance Armstrong gave up was because when the Federal Government gave up, now the USADA is stepping up in order to try and get him on some bogus charges. They don't have any real physical evidence, and the majority of their evidence is pure hearsay. The man gave up because he's tired of getting harassed. He has never failed a single drug test over his entire career, and no one has ever proven from past samples that he has ever cheated. This is just a case of either Lance Armstrong either had pretty much the best doping system in the world (because everyone was out to get him), or he really was just that good.


    And the reason why the USADA got 10 people, mostly former teammates, to testify is because they all cut deals with them so that those cyclists wouldn't have to go to jail/be banned from the sport/have much less severe punishments for testifying against Lance Armstrong, who to date has never failed a test. They've got no real physical evidence, and they never have on Lance Armstrong. No one has.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
    #82
  33. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    That seems to be the case.
     
    #83
  34. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    That applies in a courtroom, not in the sporting world. You also insist that Barry Bonds wasnt cheating?
     
    #84
  35. Underhand

    Underhand Legend

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    Like Marion Jones? Too bad his "doctor" ratted on her. I wonder who will do the same for Phelps.
     
    #85
  36. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Bonds did fail a blood test.
     
    #86
  37. bad_call

    bad_call Legend

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    me thinks the USADA must reveal physical evidence or be charged themselves with continued harassment.
     
    #87
  38. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Marion Jones died of extremely suspicious circumstances. Lance Armstrong to date has had no real health issues despite the fact that during the 90s and early 2000s cyclists were pumping dangerous levels of drugs into themselves that could easily affect them at the age Armstrong is at.


    The USADA refuses to reveal their supposed physical evidence that damns Armstrong. If they are so sure of the evidence, they should just release it. Otherwise, it's going to give Armstrong a very strong case against them in the court of public opinion.


    This isn't like he just glides under the radar. The French Government, the WADA, the United States Federal Government, among various other anti-doping agencies, all cooperated together to ensure that Lance Armstrong was clean. No one to date has even gotten close to nailing him; Armstrong has defended his name against all sorts of accusations of physical evidence, hearsay, testimonies, etc. etc. etc. I am uncertain whether he cheated or not, but it's gotten pretty ridiculous that various agencies continue to still go after him despite the fact that they have failed to get him on any charges over a span of 2 decades.


    As Benhur said, it's kind of hilarious that they are specifically targeting Lance Armstrong for over 2 decades, have failed every single time, and continue to quite literally harass him with court litigation for years on end with bogus charges and accusations, and yet no one has ever proven in court that Armstrong cheated. Ever. No one. The French have for example stated they had a sample that proves that Armstrong cheated; what happened? Nothing. The evidence wasn't strong enough to stick. The Fed Govt in the U.S. went after Armstrong, they dropped the case because they didn't have one. The WADA investigated Armstrong multiple times, they never got him on anything. And yet now the USADA comes out of nowhere, and says "AH HAH, WE GOT YOU!" and refuses to release their supposed strong physical evidence (that is in no way in relation to his multiple Tour De France wins, it is only 2009-2010).
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
    #88
  39. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    #89
  40. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Those were thrown out because the way they did the testing was extremely faulty. The WADA found issues with that method of testing and it was proven that method of testing produced false positives on other athletes.


    http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2464102


    The WADA themselves said that it was a bad method of testing, and was in no way shape or form even remotely objective, scientific, etc. Only Dick Pound himself didn't like it, because he was attempting to get Armstrong on really bogus charges. The UCI investigation pointed out that there was no way you could ever say that this was a 100% positive test, and that they recommended a separate tribunal investigate whether or not the proper procedures were followed. Dick Pound (head of the WADA) proceeds to say "that's bs" and whines and crys like a baby but does nothing about it and does not continue to pursue. Mainly because he along with the French Anti Doping Agency had no case.


    My history is abit hazy on that particular investigation, but if I remember correctly, there was something about the pristine condition of the presence of the synthetic EPO within the samples that was very strange. Over time, synthetic EPO is supposed to degrade according to what I read during the investigation, and apparently the synthetic EPO that was present in the samples was supposedly somehow at 100% or 99.9% or something like that. Which would mean that it was added very recently (as recently as the day before the test was conducted).
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
    #90
  41. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    Read This

    As is every athlete’s right, if Mr. Armstrong would have contested the USADA charges, all of the evidence would have been presented in an open legal proceeding for him to challenge. He chose not to do this knowing these sanctions would immediately be put into place,” USADA added in a statement.

    “The evidence against Lance Armstrong arose from disclosures made to USADA by more than a dozen witnesses who agreed to testify and provide evidence about their first-hand experience and/or knowledge of the doping activity of those involved in the USPS Conspiracy as well as analytical data. As part of the investigation Mr. Armstrong was invited to meet with USADA and be truthful about his time on the USPS team but he refused.”

    “Numerous witnesses provided evidence to USADA based on personal knowledge acquired, either through direct observation of doping activity by Armstrong, or through Armstrong’s admissions of doping to them that Armstrong used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone during the period from before 1998 through 2005, and that he had previously used EPO, testosterone and hGH through 1996. Witnesses also provided evidence that Lance Armstrong gave to them, encouraged them to use and administered doping products or methods, including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone during the period from 1999 through 2005. Additionally, scientific data showed Mr. Armstrong’s use of blood manipulation including EPO or blood transfusions during Mr. Armstrong’s comeback to cycling in the 2009 Tour de France.”

    The anti-doping rule violations for which Mr. Armstrong is being sanctioned are:

    (1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.

    (2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices), testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.

    (3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and corticosteroids.

    (4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone, and cortisone.

    (5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule vio
     
    #91
  42. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    The USADA have destroyed cycling as a sport. Lance Armstrong won those 7 Tour de France titles, not to mention that he has passed every drug test he has ever taken, and that was a LOT of drug tests.
     
    #92
  43. WARPWOODIE

    WARPWOODIE Rookie

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    Some where out there, Greg Lemond is thinking/saying...., I told you so.
     
    #93
  44. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    Very good sense of humor you have.
     
    #94
  45. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    All that doping and unable to produce a single failed blood teat from hundreds of samples.
     
    #95
  46. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Not cunning at all, as his numerous protests already made him seem suspicious, rather than allowing his allegedly "clean" test results do the talking for him. Moreover, the moment his titles are officially removed, he's an official wrongdoer in the history of that sport. Add more ex-teammates and others coming forward, and the assbrained hype of Armstrong being some "greatest athelete ever" goes down the toilet, as it should.
     
    #96
  47. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Marion Jones is not dead. I think you're confusing Jones with Florence Griffith-Joyner.

    I don't see how anyone can take the Tour de France seriously again if Lance Armstrong is stripped of his 7 titles, even more so when you take account that he has never failed a drugs test.

    We've seen this sort of hypocrisy over doping in athletics, where Ben Johnson was stripped of 100m gold at the 1988 Seoul Olympics after testing positive for stanozolol, and retrospectively had his 1987 World Championship taken away too (even though he passed a drugs test after that race), while Carl Lewis, who failed 3 drug tests at the 1988 Olympic trials, is still seen as an Olympic hero and has all his medals, even those that Johnson won on the track. Johnson has been ostracised ever since, yet we know he was a better sprinter than Lewis, doped or not.

    What's happened to Armstrong is even worse because he's never tested positive.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
    #97
  48. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Slipped my mind, was busy typing while cracked up on coffee.


    Not only has Armstrong never tested positive, he has also proven that people have attempted to sabotage past samples from 1999 (read the UCI report). Look, I can't be sure if he doped or not. I do have my suspicions. However, this is pretty much an all out witchhunt at this point. They can't prove anything, so they just go after Armstrong over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again until he just gets feds up with it and quits. The UCI still stands by Armstrong and refuses to strip him of his titles until the USADA proves beyond a shadow of a doubt Armstrong doped within the span of his various tour titles. The only evidence that the USADA supposedly has is from 2009-2010, which has no bearing on Armstrong's results at the Tour De France when he won it 7 times.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
    #98
  49. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

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    The french tested armstrong and his sample a was positive in 2000.

    What happens now for lance's foundation? I guess no one in the corporate world is happy to finance someone officially banned and proven guilty of ped use... What a mess
     
    #99
  50. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    erased

    Lance is a cheater and a FRAUD next they need to go after him like Landis today is San Diego court and repaid all the money given to his foundation or go to jail like Landis. He should also repay the goverment for using funds to buy drugs when he rode for USPS. Dude if you know anything about cycling and sports science you would know Lance forked over alot of money and worked with DR Ferrari and got a major drug tuneup!! Lance use to say never give up not he tells us enuff is enuff he is a quitter.
     

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